Do you actually like your job?

I can’t stand it. The programming can be good (and I have been rated by others on especially on “complicated” stuff) in stints but everything else about the job I hate. Office based, structures and management, sedentary nature, every new job is like being a novice again, part time not really an option, money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents, becoming harder and harder to be self employed, the skill is effectively useless for day to day life. Open competition from countries around the world with cheaper living costs.

Try a career change?

Do I like it? Yes. I also disagree with most of the rest of your post, too.

move into games (assuming you don’t already work in games), the programmers say it’s much more interesting/fun than “regular” coding. Though it doesn’t change the working environment much though everyone is a little bit cooler and they tend to let their hair a bit more, though those september deadlines are always a bitch.

Can’t afford a career change. I’m probably about 10 years too late.

I’d like to hear your count points.

I’ve been a developer for over 20 years; I had one job which made me feel like you do back in the early 2000’s where I felt like I was working a crap job and just making money for the company owner with little reward.

Apart from that one experience I love it – Always enjoy the challenge of new/different environments and learning new tools/languages – rather than always feeling like a novice; you can take what you already know and apply it to either pick things up quickly or shine a new perspective on things.

Maybe it’s just not for you; or you need to find somewhere that isn’t wherever you are now. Management should be there to support/assist not be a nightmare of red tape and process 😀

Am retired now but worked as a software developer for about 25 years. I enjoyed the actual coding, made loads of good friends and a ton of money, and worked for Standard Life who were a great employer.

However the problem was that coding only made up a small part of the job. Too much of it was dull meetings, reading tedious documents and all the usual office nonsense. Plus much of the coding was updating old code rather than writing nice new stuff which I suspect is the part most developers enjoy.

Since retiring I’ve taken to mucking around with Python. I can now write code when I like and to do with whatever I like (as opposed to dull financial services topics). Am enjoying coding more than I ever did when actually working.

I love it!

I work pretty much on my own, developing tools / solutions directly for internal / external customers. The best bit is every new problem is unique and needs a unique solution, so endlessly having to think and figure things out, which I really enjoy.

Being in a team of one, there is zero politics and I just do what I want when I want. I have a few Teams meetings each week to discuss progess on projects where I have ongoing involvement. My bosses, over the years, have just left me to get on with it as I don’t need managing – not had an appraisel for a good 10 years now!

I also work a four day week….

Before doing development I used to be in management, was VP Engineering in couple of companies – found it pretty vacuous to be honest, much prefer hacking code…..

@TheBrick – what is your role / background / where do you work ?

I mean I’m manangement now, but having done a career change (ie worked outside the field) we don’t know how good we got it.

Career change or career break?

Not really. I get bored and the politics are complete bolox. Want to do something more fulfilling but don’t know what. Only time it’s enjoyable is new stuff but that is rare.

money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents

really? we hire new grads on 40k straight out of uni and good, experianced hires are looking at packages double that (south east). I think thats higher than pretty much anything else you can get after 3 years at uni.

Ditto, 40k for a grad, 120 for a Principal Engineer ie no management reponsibilities, (London)

Sounds like you are working somewhere software isn’t valued – there are lots of places where it is!

I expect this is like saying “painters, do you like it?” and getting replies from people who paint houses, people who paint artwork, and people who paint on a factory production line…

If you like the actual coding bit but not the rest then it’s likely the company that sucks: find a way to pivot into something else. I switched job earlier this year and am really enjoying having less meetings and more autonomy!

I go through phases, but at the moment i’m really not feeling it.

Coding itself is annoying, a lot of the tools are crap, there are unpredictable gotchas all over the place, there is constant churn of things being deprecating in favour of The Next Big Thing(tm), etc etc.

Then there are clients. At the moment I have one timewaster who emails me a question then refuses to read/understand the reply. He’ll just reply “I don’t understand, can we have a teleconf?” Then we have a teleconf with about 10 people on who aren’t relevant, usually some can’t get their audio working, etc, everyone introduces themselves which takes about 10 minutes, then all I do is read the exact same **** answer that was on the email in the first place. ****

I’d like to hear your count points.

righty-ho:

Office based,

I work at home, work in labs full of toys – this isn’t tree surgery out in the outdoors.

structures and management,

found everywhere

sedentary nature

yeah, ok, but see above, this isn’t an outdoor job

, every new job is like being a novice again,

you say that like it is a bad thing

part time not really an option,

employer dependent

money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents,

which equivalents? that reads a bit like a piece of string type statement

becoming harder and harder to be self employed,

can’t answer that I’ve always been employed

the skill is effectively useless for day to day life.

you can’t see how being able to find information and do problem solving is useful for day to day life?

Open competition from countries around the world with cheaper living costs.

True for many, many careers.

I have not found my positions being outsourced or outcompeted, perhaps I am lucky, but I have always wound up in ‘engineering’ gigs where quality is pushed and not ‘coding or developing’ type places where speed is pushed.

I think, ultimately, you simply have to like the learning cycle, bartering requirements and functionality with clients, and all that jazz, if you are going to thrive in the field.

YMMV, obviously.

Yep I love it – it’s my hobby as well as my job, so I never really feel like I’m working.

I started off back in Uni about 2001. Wrote my first site in Actionscript (Flash) and won a student award from .NET magazine. Finally broke into the industry as a front end developer back in 2006, within a couple of years I was looking after a small team of developers and had learnt PHP (urgh). After that I contracted for years with various companies.

For me the rise of Node is what sealed it for me. I’ve always loved javascript, even from it’s kiddy early days of just making things pop up on the screen and move around. Being able to use one language for full stack was a breakthough in my eyes.

These days I work as a software architect – I’m not really sure I do much architecting, but I do get to make decisions on how we approach our client side applications. And most of my days now are spent working with React and the NPM ecosystem – anything from R&D on a new library, writing unit/integration/e2e tests, Azure build pipelines and anything in between.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

I’m on 50k here for C++, Matlab, Computer Vision stuff, currently learning AI/machine learning stuff.

what is your role / background / where do you work ?

Background, science / engineering / mathematics.

Worked in mathematical modelling, simulation, a little embedded, machine control (most enjoyable and best pay but the level of travel was too much > 50%).

Currently working on a complicated C++ code base. Code is challenging but it’s just tweaking stuff.

really? we hire new grads on 40k straight out of uni and good, experianced hires are looking at packages double that (south east). I think thats higher than pretty much anything else you can get after 3 years at uni.

Well that’s not what I recognise by a long way!

I’m not a corporate person not into processes and whatnot so never fit into the managements box.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

There are quite a few lead javascript developer roles on the boards in London for ~£600pd.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

Yeah I’m obviously working in the wrong companies!

I do live out in the sticks though, as opposed to Londinium.

There are quite a few lead javascript developer roles on the boards in London for ~£600pd.

Ok, so day rate contracting? Maybe needed clarifying, permie salaries are different for obvious reasons.

Code is challenging but it’s just tweaking stuff.

Whereas I generally get simple(ish) code but many challenges in proving compliance to requirements.

In my current situation I only get into code about 25% of the time but it’s the best bit of the job. I am also fortunate that the development is mostly new and fairly cutting edge, which helps. Like most of my age I started in the 80s home computer boom, pretty much right away knew I would be doing it for a living. If I won the lottery I’d code for free tbh.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

We just took on a principal dev (SaaS) for £80k.

I guess City jobs pay more as they’ll be London / City weighting, worth another 20% plus.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

I’m on 50k here for C++, Matlab, Computer Vision stuff, currently learning AI/machine learning stuff.

Academia (or related), presumably? Salaries always well under private sector for software.

no i’m in private sector (engineering)

move into games (assuming you don’t already work in games), the programmers say it’s much more interesting/fun than “regular” coding.

Do not move in to games coding unless you really know what you are letting yourself in for, after 10 years making games including the launch titles for XBox Live, XBox 360 and Kinect I jumped ship to “normal” programming (Aviation Weather) and spend my time jumping between C++, C# and web UI work. Games was great when I was younger but there are few old games coders, the hours are long and overtime unpaid, there’s always a ready stream of keen young coders which keeps pay down and at the end of the day you’ll mostly be hacking unreal engine around.

“structures and management,”

found everywhere

I’m not sure maybe it because I am comparing it to mates who work as plumbers and carpenters. They work hard but for them self. Have to deal with awkward customers but are largly there own boss.

“every new job is like being a novice again,”

you say that like it is a bad thing

I do like learning new things but it gets abit rediculouse. Half the time its stuff that already exists and you’re learning new vocabulary for stuff that’s been used for decades.

“money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents,”

which equivalents? that reads a bit like a piece of string type statement

Legal professionals , teachers (my partner is a part time teacher and makes the same as me) but gets good holidays, good pension etc.

“the skill is effectively useless for day to day life.”

you can’t see how being able to find information and do problem solving is useful for day to day life?

Problem solving is more who you are than your job. Programming doesn’t build a wall.

“Open competition from countries around the world with cheaper living costs.”

True for many, many careers.

and many aren’t teachers, legal eagles, trade (I know someone will talk about Europe here but its not the same difference as people from India. For reference worked with plenty of Indian guys and girls and they have been the same mix of abilities as any UK based person but management will always prefer the cheap of two equal costing workers)

I used to write games….

http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=1104

OK, I was 14, but it still lives on in a BBC Micro Emulator!

Is now a good time to mention that my employer (Arm) is hiring? Covid has meant that full-time remote is a possibility and there’s offices dotted across the country.

permie, private sector, fintech, 25 day hols, 20 days sick, equity and pension…but its not just finance here’s one in the energy sector:

https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/435310/principal-software-engineer-bulb-energy

You can usually add 10k to whatever the job adverts say.

There are lots of problems with careers in software (agism, sexism, burnout) but pay ain’t one.

I’m not sure maybe it because I am comparing it to mates who work as plumbers and carpenters.

I always say that if I did it again, I’d be some sort of tradesperson. Compensation always looks compelling for the level of skill/stress.

Legal professionals , teachers (my partner is a part time teacher and makes the same as me) but gets good holidays, good pension etc.

Teachers? Really? Unless you’re pretty high up the pecking order, teaching has never seemed that well paid. For equivalent levels, I’d have thought IT would have come up on top every time.

There are loads of professions that do pay better than IT, but, there are loads that pay less, too.

Teachers? Really?

Yep. Wasn’t clear in that post I mean prorata, i.e. if she was full time she would be on the same. Its true that teachers are not regarded as well payed but programmers are. I think its the headlines of programmers who work in the city or are working on the latest trendy web frameworks (see adverts above). If you’re outside these two niches programming pay is very average IME.

Legal professions have more barriers to entry, it’s a protected job title, effectively limiting the supply of labour. You have to get trained up by an existing lawyer. There’s a LOT of mundane work too. Watch Better Call Saul!

Anyone can sell themselves as a programmer.

My OH was a teacher, sounded like a nightmare. Responsible for setting the goals, teaching, and marking for 300 kids, whilst still dealing with all the meetings and stuff. It definitely isn’t an easier better paid job than being a programmer.

Management structures tend to come with larger companies IMO. Maybe try a smaller one, a startup or try and go contracting??

I was about to post some positive things about my job until I read this:

40k for a grad, 120 for a Principal Engineer ie no management reponsibilities

Shit the bed!

Being an actual dev is good or bad depending on the project. Actual coding is great, if it’s a fun challenge. And it should be – there’s no excuse for having any donkey work in your app these days – it should all have been done for you by someone else – so you should be free to focus on designing and optimising the solution.

I then moved to software services for a big company which was about half dev. The dev part isn’t interesting but moving between clients and being seen as the expert (mostly) is actually pretty rewarding. For me, the constant change and the travel is a life saver.

Now I have a global role guiding clients in their projects or sorting out crit sits. It means a lot of product knowledge and even less dev (but still some), but the challenge is brilliant.

So if you want to stay a techie and have an exciting job, they are out there. But I’m not on £120k so maybe I should go back to development!

Also – development can be menial or very very difficult and requiring top notch skills – the problem is that not many organisations know the difference.

All that stuff you can’t stand is just normal working life that’s slowly ebbing it’s way across ALL jobs.

It use to be that the majority of jobs didn’t need to get involved in it, but over my +35 years I’ve just seen it spread, so now even low-level blue collar roles have to ‘suffer’ it.

It’s like our quarterly appraisal system, they are most insistent that I must have career expectations – so for the past couple of years I’ve just put down “early retirement”.

My OH was a teacher,

Mine too. Not saying its easier but same pay with better perks. Not for me as I am not good with kids but my point is the comparison in terms of money and perks.

v try and go contracting

IR35 seems to have killed that boat unless you are happy living in a hotel room, very few companies want the risk. I’ve done enough of that with old jobs. Went around a load of agencies over the last years and my requirement was that I would work anywhere but would not go and sit on site every day. Happy to come in a few days a week if within 2hrs. Once a week if its 4-hrs. Or do a Week on site a week or so from home. I just wasn’t going to live in a hotel room or commute mega miles everyday. Or even two weeks onsite including weekends then time working from home. None of this was acceptable.

I’ll be honest; sounds like you are suffering from burnout / under valuation a bit.

I definitely earn more than I would as a teacher (I did consider it as a career at one point) – and 35 days holiday + mostly WFH. In terms of “being your own boss” – I think most good employers allow you to find a role that suits you; but unless your freelancing / working on small projects than most dev roles are very much collaborative affairs. I lead a small team (Me; 3 devs + test engineer) – but we’re one of 3/4 teams on the product.

I used to write games….

http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=1104

OK, I was 14, but it still lives on in a BBC Micro Emulator!

that’s cool, used to love the Type Ins section in Amstrad Action. Bit too young to cash in on the 80s computer game boom (no Porsche at 16 like the Darling brothers, etc 😭) but still learned a lot! Can’t believe we used to get games/apps by literally typing them in from magazine pages, kids today don’t know they’re born etc 🤣. Only ever programmed as a hobby but always enjoyed it… those who do it for a living but also as a hobby, working on anything interesting? Github links?

I’ve been doing it for 25 years now, I think I agree with pretty much all of the above (the pluses and the minuses), I love learning new stuff every few years, it’s almost always from scratch each time, but if you learn the basic concepts behind things instead of by rote, it get’s easier and quicker each time, and you soon realise that most of the time, it’s just a new term for something that already exists but maybe with a twist.

The main issue with the job is the attitude of other people in the business, the amount of times you get forced to build something that you know isn’t going to work by someone ‘higher’ up because they think they know better one way or another is ridiculous, that and being forced to cut corners that will cost later. It’s a basic lack of respect for the profession, I don’t work on the IT helpdesk (no disrespect to those guys, they live in a whole other world of pain), I don’t ‘just switch things on and off again all day’ and saying it to my face isn’t funny, it’s insulting. I’m not suggesting it’s a bad idea just to be awkward, I’ve been here a hundred times before. Far too many people think the IT crowd is real.

I think its the headlines of programmers who work in the city or are working on the latest trendy web frameworks (see adverts above). If you’re outside these two niches programming pay is very average IME.

If the salary bothers you, then, learn the trendy frameworks?