Prison Suicides – Chris Grayling must be thinking 'Job Done!'

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  • Prison Suicides – Chris Grayling must be thinking 'Job Done!'
  • Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    I was chatting to a PO whilst cycling the other week and he was saying how awful the job is at the moment, low staff levels and morale coupled with a more violent prison population, not a job he was keen to stick with. I am not sure it is a worthwhile policy to grind the prison service, both from the staff and the prisoners side, into the ground

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    There’s a couple of prison officers on here who will be along shortly for an informed opinion.

    It’s a tough one. Prison should offer enough punishment to discourage reoffending, and enough rehabilitation to give people a realistic chance of going straight on release. Not sure how you can do that while squeezing funding across tbe public sector, but presumably if you get it right the knock on savings for the police, justice system, welfare and social services should help make it pay for itself.

    Think we also have to accept that tbe nature of prison and some prisoners makes it impossible to completely stop such incidents, just as in the outside world.

    badnewz
    Member

    Landlord of my local pub is ex PO. He looks 20 years older than he is, has had major heart surgery, and won’t discuss the “horrors” he’s seen over the years.
    Then again, was it ever historically a good job?

    Premier Icon CheesybeanZ
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    There are some individuals in the prison system who I feel no sympathy for but the state has a responsibility to care for those it chooses to incarcerate and it seems to be doing its best to abdicate that, currently.

    The State incarcerates people who choose to break the law and have been to trial and found guilty .

    marky29er
    Member

    Not being a bleeding heart hand wringer myself it does indeed sound like a job well done. Cells should be fitted with nooses in my opinion, help them along a bit if thats what they want.
    My friend has just left after 25 years in the job, he was no longer enjoying it.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
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    I am quite right leaning but quite a few of those in prison are on remand, may not be convicted, and if convicted, may not get a custodial sentence. They often need more support.

    But some should just be locked up and left to rot. Luckily this country has a system where I don’t get to make the uninformed choice, however flawed it may be.

    badnewz
    Member

    As Mrs Merton once asked, The Death Penalty – but is it enough?
    Some people are born criminals, some achieve criminality, and others have criminality thrust upon them. I only have sympathy for the latter group.

    bikebouy
    Member

    I see Prison as a reform opportunity, there are many good life changing stories that come out incarceration situations. However I counter that with there will always be a section of society that do not want nor have the ability to contribute to a cohesive society, these folks I have little sympathy for.

    Premier Icon footflaps
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    Totally consistent with Welfare Policy as well. As far as the Tories are concerned, every extra death of a poor person is a job well done.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
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    bikebouy – Member

    I see Prison as a reform opportunity, there are many good life changing stories that come out incarceration situations. However I counter that with there will always be a section of society that do not want nor have the ability to contribute to a cohesive society, these folks I have little sympathy for.

    Please define ‘ability’ and ‘contribute to’.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/justice-secretary-chris-graylings-policy-responsible-for-prisoner-suicides-9662758.html

    It appears government policy is to make life in prison intolerable (for both staff and prisoners, it seems) so a rise in suicides must be viewed as a measure of success by him.

    There are some individuals in the prison system who I feel no sympathy for but the state has a responsibility to care for those it chooses to incarcerate and it seems to be doing its best to abdicate that, currently.

    In the year to March 88 people took their own lives in English and Welsh prisons – a rise from 52 in the previous year. Since January this year 44 people have committed suicide in jail while the number of incidents of self-harm increased by more than 750 in a year to 23,478. Attacks against staff have also increased by 10 per cent.

    konabunny
    Member

    “The State incarcerates people who choose to break the law and have been to trial and found guilty”

    thanks for clarifying that.

    it also incarcerates 12-13,000 innocent people (about 15% of all prisoners). HM Inspector of Prisons found that they were at a higher risk of self-harm than other prisoners. https://www.justice.gov.uk/news/press-releases/hmi-prisons/remand-prisoners-treated-worse-than-sentenced-prisoners

    badnewz
    Member

    Konabunny, you are confusing Remand with Innocent. Granted some will be, but not all.

    bencooper
    Member

    They are innocent until they have been proven guilty, aren’t they?

    Or is it okay to badly treat someone because they might be found guilty in the future?

    bikebouy
    Member

    Rusty Spanner – Member

    Please define ‘ability’ and ‘contribute to’.

    No, shant.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Or is it okay to badly treat someone because they might be found guilty in the future?

    I think they worked out it’s cheaper to get them to kill themselves than to have to pay for a trial so it’s a Tory win-win, lower court costs, lower prison costs, and potentially less work for Parole officers etc.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
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    OK.

    Your statement implies that you have little sympathy for those who cannot ‘contribute’ due to medical and psychological conditions over which they have no control.

    I was just wondering how far your lack of sympathy extended.

    bikebouy
    Member

    Ok,

    Medically and ethically those that have little or no control of thier own conditions I have mahhhoooossssiiiivvvveee sympathy. Those that have control, but choose not to use it, very little.

    HTH

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Thanks for the clarification.

    🙂

    wrecker
    Member

    My Grandad and dad were prison officers and my sister still is.
    All agree that my sister has it the worst out of all of them. I never fancied it, but there is no way on earth that I’d do it now. No way at all.

    Premier Icon just5minutes
    Subscriber

    “As far as the Tories are concerned, every extra death of a poor person is a job well done.”

    Got to say that aside from being churlish in the extreme, this kind of comment is also just plain offensive.

    Putting aside the tragedy that is anyone feeling the need to take their own life, to make political capital out of it is just plain wrong.

    Even 5 seconds on google would show that the suicide rate was higher under the last government in actual numbers and as a %age of the then prison population, so does that mean that Lord Falconer as the then Justice Secretary was thinking “every extra death of a poor person is a job well done?“. Of course not – and to suggest that is the case just obfuscates the urgent need for a proper discussion of the high levels of mental health problems in the prison population and the link in many of those cases to long term habitual drug misuse.

    Three_Fish
    Member

    @badnewz

    Some people are born criminals…

    I’d be very interested to hear your thinking behind that.

    presumably if you get it right the knock on savings for the police, justice system, welfare and social services should help make it pay for itself.

    Sounds grand in theory but in practice it would mean a fairly substantial increase in spending now with no positive results for at least 5 years if not more, during which time the Daily Fail and other assorted hate and fear mongers will be twisting their knickers about colour tvs in cells and every child rapist in the country getting posters of the cover of Charlie And the Chocolate Factory as some kind of loony lefty scheme. And by the time those results are delivered, there may well be another government seeing the benefit in reduced crime and more effective policing.
    So **** that, let them die.

    badnewz
    Member

    @ Three Fish

    I’d be very interested to hear your thinking behind that.

    Google the word “Psychopath”.

    Premier Icon cinnamon_girl
    Subscriber

    Did anyone watch the two parter with Trevor McDonald concerning a massive prison in the USA including those on Death Row?

    Whilst I thought he was pretty useless with his inane questions, it was pretty shocking to hear of some penalties handed out when crimes involved were carried out by people who’d been let down by Society. That’s obviously no excuse for what they did but it’s never black and white is it?

    amedias
    Member

    Google the word “Psychopath”.

    Plenty of people are Psychopaths, doesn’t make them criminals, likewise plenty of criminals aren’t Psychopaths.

    Google ‘misinformed generalisations’

    Junkyard
    Member

    Prison should offer enough punishment to discourage reoffending, and enough rehabilitation to give people a realistic chance of going straight on release. Not sure how you can do that while squeezing funding across tbe public sector

    I dont think you can do both tbh

    Which you choose is a measure of whether you wish to help others change or you just wish to punish them

    Neither approach actually ends criminality

    Konabunny, you are confusing Remand with Innocent. Granted some will be, but not all

    he challenged this point with facts

    “The State incarcerates people who choose to break the law and have been to trial and found guilty”

    He was correct not everyone in prison has been tried let alone found guilty.even you accept some innocent people are in prison.

    badnewz
    Member

    Plenty of people are Psychopaths, doesn’t make them criminals, likewise plenty of criminals aren’t Psychopaths.

    Google ‘misinformed generalisations’

    So you accept the fact that some people are Psychopaths. I didn’t say all were criminals, but they have a greater likelihood of engaging in criminal behaviour. Given how many people live on this here planet, I’d say there will be at least one person in human history who was born a criminal, i.e. no matter their environment, they will end up committing crime.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Only one person?

    Well if you include speeding, running red lights, or using a mobile phone whilst driving as ‘crime’, you’ve probably got 50%+ of the UK as ‘yet to be caught’ criminals…

    amedias
    Member

    So you accept the fact that some people are Psychopaths. I didn’t say all were criminals

    No you didn’t, but you didn’t quantify your post much did you? You only offered a pretty much one-word answer to what is a very deep and complicated discussion, and I don’t think you can blame me from inferring from your post that you were suggesting that Psychopaths are born criminals.

    I’d say there will be at least one person in human history who was born a criminal,

    I don’t believe in that, nobody is born a criminal, their actions later in life when they commit a crime is what makes them a criminal, and those actions are not a foregone conclusion, however likely or unlikely they may be.

    i.e. no matter their environment, they will end up committing crime.

    That’s a different discussion, of free will and self-determinism, the key bit is born a criminal, at some point in their life they, as you put it ‘end up committing crime’, it is at this point they changed from being ‘not a criminal’ to ‘a criminal’, by your own definition they cannot have been born a criminal.

    I do believe that some people are born with personality traits/Psychological conditions that make it more likely they will commit a crime, but they are not born a criminal, in the same way that some people will have a life experience and environment that means they are more likely to commit a crime, but they are not born criminal either.

    konabunny
    Member

    badnewz – Member
    Konabunny, you are confusing Remand with Innocent.
    POSTED 14 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

    no, I’m not. I chose my words very carefully.

    Three_Fish
    Member

    Google the word “Psychopath”.

    I asked for your thoughts.

    In addition, consider this: crime, as you are referring to it, is a human construct, because laws are also so – they are intended, primarily, to be a reflection of the collective social conscience. A legal system is required because, often enough, an individual’s sense of morality, their own conscience, may diverge from that of the social group. That said, and as has already been mentioned, pretty much everyone will commit a criminal act at some point in their life. You yourself will be no exception.

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