nealglover – arms dealer, or someone who promotes the sale of arms – is there really a significant difference IYO?

@grum, Ian Watkins got 35 years – I was making the comparison that someone who gets 18 months probably hasn’t committed a “notorious” crime. A serious crime yes but not a “notorious one”

Well I believe the whole case being heard at the moment is arguing he should have received a much, much longer sentence but didn’t because of his wealth and connections to people like Prince Andrew. It’s also pretty shabby whataboutery to compare it to the Ian Watkins case and say ‘well at least it wasn’t as bad as that’.

And how anyone can claim the British arms trade is something to be proud of is truly beyond me.

aa – not there is nothing remotely dodgy in assisting in promoting British business including weapons.

In your opinion, many others disagree

Have you ever thought why French ski resorts such as Courchevel have fallen from favour with the rich and famous in recent years?

If you read the local papers in Courchevel and Verbier it’s blindingly obvious why. One has ads for cars, houses and lost dogs, the other for sex workers. An amusing link for those who read German.

grum – Member
And how anyone can claim the British arms trade is something to be proud of is truly beyond me.

Because money?

another sexual scandal

Have you ever thought why French ski resorts such as Courchevel have fallen from favour with the rich and famous in recent years?

The property prices and level of building work there at present suggest it hasn’t fallen out of favour with everyone. It may be that the increasing number of rich and rude Russians has persuaded many people that other places are more pleasant and better value options.

Don’t get me started on the tossers who think they have a claim over Cornwall.

pfffft

True or False?

Prince Andrew and Duchess of York

AND

Prince Charles and Diana

had Jimmy Savile as a marriage counsellor?

True
True
Unknown

do I win ?

Aye, what do you prefer, custard cream or bourbon?

live rodents err, custard cream please

Steady on Richard Gere!!

Bloody 3d scanner is on the blink, and what’s more, just realized that you didn’t quite make the grade:

True
True
True

is the correct answer…

Nonetheless, kindly soul that I am, I’ll have to give you some more tasty info to chew on…

Here is an article regarding the cancelling of a documentary which was due to be shown last night, detailing how Prince Charles used spin doctors after the death of Diana

(Not sure if spin doctors wrote article?)

The funny thing is, the documentary which the Royals stopped airing on the BBC is about how they influence the media. Point proved?

Captions please for Eduk’s and JHJ’s photos:

nealglover – arms dealer, or someone who promotes the sale of arms – is there really a significant difference IYO?

There are differences yes. But wether prince Andrew is guilty of sexual offences doesn’t rely on the definition of either of them.

And how anyone can claim the British arms trade is something to be proud of is truly beyond me.

I agree.

Did anyone do that ?

Queenie pays more tax than Starbucks iirc.
Possibly, but she makes a good deal less coffee.

Considering what crap, watery bilge Starbucks churns out, I consider that a Very Good Thing.
And if she did, I’m sure the quality would be top-notch.

jivehoneyjive – Member
True or False?

Prince Andrew and Duchess of York

AND

Prince Charles and Diana

had Jimmy Savile as a marriage counsellor?

So? This has been gone over relentlessly because of your obsession with it. Here’s a good expression for you: hindsight is 20:20 vision. Do you understand the significance in this context?

Do you understand the significance in this context?

Very much so, do you?

How was Savile allowed to get so close, given vetting procedures?

And why is there so many similar instances where offenders close to the Royals slipped through the net

All very odd…

Very odd indeed:

Now, about those hidden cameras that Epstein had…

To be honest, you don’t have to be ‘establishment’ to install hidden cameras.

Landlord in a local pub in Northamptonshire got done for that. No chance I’d want to see his clientele use the bogs, and they are not the crowd to fear a pub dump either.

In Epstein’s case there was clearly a case to answer because (from the stuff I’ve seen anyway) while the incidents he was involved in appear to have been consentual some of the girls involved were below the age of consent and there are strong grounds that he must have been aware of that. I think it’s the latter point (i.e. whether he must have been aware of it) that led the prosecution to do a plea bargain with him though because they weren’t sure they’d be able to get a conviction based on the evidence they had (although it looks like the police and prosecution disagree on that).

In Prince Andrew’s case even if the allegations are true then what he’s being accused of is that he had sex with a 17 year old girl in 3 different locations, but that in all of which 17 would have been above the age of consent. Very sleazy yes, but criminal no.

In Prince Andrew’s case even if the allegations are true then what he’s being accused of is that he had sex with a 17 year old girl in 3 different locations, but that in all of which 17 would have been above the age of consent. Very sleazy yes, but criminal no.

Not quite true,if the girl was a prostitute then it is illegal if she is under 18.

The whole thing is incredibly sleazy.

Not quite true,if the girl was a prostitute then it is illegal if she is under 18.

I don’t think there is any allegation that Prince Andrew paid her or would have been aware she was a prostitute though. If Epstein paid her directly (although at that point it sounds more like she was a mistress being kept by Epstein than a prostitute) to have sex with Prince Andrew (and he wasn’t aware of it) then I think the crime would have been Epsteins. In any case I don’t think she’s alleging that she was specifically paid to have sex with Prince Andrew.

At this point I don’t think any of the allegations point to an actual crime by Prince Andrew.

The whole thing is incredibly sleazy.

Of that there is no doubt.

Think epicsteve has summed this up for me, based on current evidence. Was probably wrong of me to chuckle at the Matt cartoon on the front the Torygraph today though.

Epstein had a large number of underage girls, some as young as 12:

Given allegations of an orgy involving Andrew on island with Russian girls, we’ll have to see who else comes forward, though they may have already been scared off:

Hey… whats the problem…..?

I don’t think there is any allegation that Prince Andrew paid her or would have been aware she was a prostitute though.

Whilst I’ve always been under the impression that Andrew is thick as a brick I think think he’s street wise enough to know what’s going on. Everything he does is for money and everything anyone does for him is ultimately for money.

We are not disputing Epstein abused under age girls. He went to jail for it. As part of securing that conviction he entered into a plea bargain. The girls lawyers are challenging that plea bargain (which was agreed in what 2009 ?)

As posted above the “allegation” is that Prince Andrew slept with a 17 year old, that’s an offense is she was a prostitute but not if she was not.

Its quite clear that this public mudslinging from the US lawyers naming high profile individuals is an attempt at trial by media.

As people have said if the girls lawyers think there is a case to answer they should file a lawsuit against the individuals.

I’m no fan of Berlusconi but the age of consent in Italy is 14 (correct me if I am wrong), there are similar laws regarding minimum age for prostitutes (16 or 18 I believe).

Surely we’re in dangerous new territory, if we’re using Silvio as a benchmark for acceptable behaviour? 😆

When I am with a woman I always think to myself what would Silvio do ?

Dont you ?

Now you come to mention it…..

Question, and apologies if it’s been answered but I can’t see any mention of it here or in the news.

Where were Virginia Roberts parents throughout her alleged time as a sex slave? From her own story this began at age 15. Were her parents around and allowing her to hang out with a guy 3+ times her age and allowed her to travel the world with him???

As posted above the “allegation” is that Prince Andrew slept with a 17 year old, that’s an offense is she was a prostitute but not if she was not.

The allegation is that he slept with a 17 year old who was coerced into doing so. Whether or not laws were broken, if the allegation is true, then his behaviour is not what we expect(*) from our glorious rulers.

(*) By ‘expect’ I mean ‘hope for’, as in “England expects that every man will do his duty”. Of course it is precisely what we think is likely.

Private Eye cover

then his behaviour is not what we expect(*) from our glorious rulers.

Its a big leap of imagination for me to think of Prince Andrew as one of our “rulers”. What exactly does he rule ?

The latest thing about Prince Andrew I was reading today that he had quite a few men ‘up a hill’ and then had them down again. Apparently when they were up they were up, the article was saying, and when they were down… you get the picture.

Its a big leap of imagination for me to think of Prince Andrew as one of our “rulers”. What exactly does he rule ?

I am amazed the BBC have not drawn a link… ( 😉 for those in doubt )

plot thickens

Not really thickening, just more salacious details of what was morally reprehensible but possibly not actually criminal.

My sympathy for victims tends to diminish when stories are sold on to the Press. The only people victims should be giving the details to are juries, until the “accused” has been cleared or convicted.

It’s a tricky balance~ on the one hand you have a point, but on the other,

a)It could be a means of protecting the witness; such high level publicity lessens the likelihood of an ‘accidental death’ in the run up to the trial

b) Such high profile/powerful names may require public pressure to ensure a fair trial… see above for how Alan Dershowitz (now implicated) pressured victims.

Interesting…

so leon britains died, looks like that dossier will never be found now…..

prince andrew was conveniently out of the country, probably at a Taken style sex slave auction in Davos ;-), so it wasnt him