A bit of an odd one for me as I am usually very confident of how meetings with HR will go. apologies for the long post and thanks ahead of time for any tips

I ( as many will remember) am a nurse working with very dependent / physically disabled older adults. As such it is a physical job. Last spring I tore my rotator cuff and it is still not healed properly. I have been passed fit for ” light duties” by Occupational health. Unfortunately “light duties” on the ward I am on is really not practical and there is no doubt in my mind that continuing to work there has delayed recovery and a couple of weeks ago I re-injured the shoulder on the ward putting me back several weeks. I have already reduced my hours from 37.5 to 24 to give more recovery time.
So the meeting tomorrow is to try to find some solution under “promoting attendance at work” policy ( although its months since I have actually been off!)
My line manager wants me to take redeployment to another area but redeployment comes with serious issues ie if your new boss does not want you after 3 months you are out, gone, fired with no recourse to return to your original post. It is however much more convenient for her in terms of budget etc. However I have read and understood the policy better than my manager and know this is for permanent disability not temporary and all the medics I have seen are confident that I will heal in time but its always “3 months from now”. Temporary relocation is also possible under the policy and IMO this is far more appropriate. Other options would be a redefined role on my ward but my manager is resisting this ( with some good reasons). final option given I am only just over a year from retirement is to recommend early retirement – but that would have some cost to me financially.

I do wonder when I tell HR that working there is delaying my recovery and that I did re-injure a couple of weeks ago that they will remove me from the ward immediately. I would of course resist that being called sick leave as I am fit for light duties is just they cannot find me any in my current location.

My current commute is a mile and I work 2×12 hr shifts. I am not sure how practical it is to insist neither of these change – certainly doing a commute over 5 miles would be unacceptable to me and I do like my two day week.

So thoughts? Advice? Ideas on outcome?

The only thought I have is that I would not want to be the HR manager in a meeting with you TJ!

🙂

Are you a member of a union? If so, get a union rep to accompany you.

I hope the goes well but I’d be looking at the early retirement option.

I am a union member but do not need a rep for this – I used to be one and if the meeting is going in a direction I do not like I will stop it while I get advice.

bah

No point worrying about stuff you have little to no impact on. If you go you can then recover and I would have assumed, get another job in a similar role pretty quickly. Are your skills not in short suppy ?

piha – I bet he is the union rep!

NHS? Are you taking your RCN rep with you?

Nursing the the NHS and their HR procedures baffle the hell out of me. My Wife’s a Nurse.

She had, until recently colleagues who are just terrible at their job, I mean dangerously so, but they get chance after chance, it seems unless you actually kill someone you really can’t be touched, and even then…

On the other side of the coin, like the OP they seem completely unwilling to accept it’s possible to be injured in work, the back issues my wife had when she did Ward Work were terrible, but they’d refuse to accept it was possible to be injured if you follow procedure but make it almost impossible to follow those procedures because there wasn’t enough staff to handle every 20+ stone patient in 2s or even 3s.

Have you thought of having a bionic arm fitted?

Given what you’ve told us of your financial situation early retirement would be my option. But then I haven’t worked for 17 years and I’m still years away from retirement.

When my father was offered early retirement at 56 I worked out an income based on cash burn and pension income assuming he would be active to 85 and subsistance income from there on in. It’s worked out fine. It’s not as if you’ve got kids to think about. Enjoy burning through that cash pile.

I do wonder when I tell HR that working there is delaying my recovery and that I did re-injure a couple of weeks ago that they will remove me from the ward immediately. I would of course resist that being called sick leave as I am fit for light duties is just they cannot find me any in my current location.

You cant do your job, and a job you can do doesn’t exist where you work – sounds a lot like sick leave really

I reckon you should relax this stance too:

certainly doing a commute over 5 miles would be unacceptable to me

A 5+ mile commute is hardly wild as much as we’d all prefer a really short one

Are you a member of a union?

Genuine lol at that, either poster is new or been living in space.
Take early retirement with a neck injury, you’ll never look back.
(I know rotator cuff is shoulder but couldn’t resist)

Early retirement would cost me around £750 a year in pension ( which will already be small due to service breaks) – I have sick pay of 5 months full pay and 6 months half pay available that could be used instead.

You should take a Union Rep – you cannot be two people at the same time and it is good to have another person to record/observe.

Although you have been passed fit for light duties that has clearly changed – you have been further injured whilst undertaking light duties – you are not fit for light duties – you need to be seen by an Occupational Health Adviser and re-assessed before any decision is made.

Full time sick leave until that happens.

And I would keep the chat about “I don’t want to work more than 5 miles from home” to yourself – that is your personal preference and not something your employer can be expected to accommodate (within your staff location policy of course)

Have fun and let us know what happens !

Ex union rep here . I’m sure you’ve got all your bases covered but my only advice would be to go in with some thoughts on something you would be willing to compromise on , doesn’t have to be anything massive but I’ve always found it better to come across as the reasonable party looking for a solution as opposed to I’ve got a pretty sweet deal at the moment and don’t want to change it thank you . Not saying that’s you but I’ve represented both types and the former normally end up in a better position at the end .

No bets but have you looked at the difference in pension between 64 and 65? I looked at the difference between going at 60 and 58 and it was of such a magnitude that…..I was off like a rocket. If they propose early retirement, could you negotiate enhanced rates to make up a 65 y o pension? By the sound of your job, being off work one way or another must enhance your chances of a full recovery. Good luck with it and keep us posted.

final option given I am only just over a year from retirement is to recommend early retirement – but that would have some cost to me financially.

Given their options, might they offer you early retirement anyway? Topping up a years pension contributions + paying you a pension for a year is probably cheaper than managing your absence for a year.

Someone I know got made redundant at a similar point in their career from local government, as part of the package they’ve been topped up to their full pension. So their only loss is the their salary (which the redundancy pretty much covered).

Obviously you’re not being made redundant, but the economics might be the same for them.

Ta Hels

Occupational Health Adviser and re-assessed before any decision is made.

Been seen by them twice now and “waiting for OH” has been used to delay decisions. I have been asking for this meeting for 4 months ( and have proof in writing). OH will just say – ” fit for light duties” NO)thing has actually changed in my condition – its just that light duties are not avaiable in my workplace not that I am not fit for light duties

fair point on the commuting but I cycle to work and chose where I work for the short commute. I could of course get both time and cash for a longer commute)

Why is that comment laughable, it would be laughable not taking union’s advice on HR appts.

But yes it depends on your financial situation TJ, I would lean towards taking early retirement and keep options open elsewhere

Just my pence worth

Oh and gaving just read moonsbaloons’ comments,

So true to go in open to compromising in places in the work place however as a poster just above me states, might be better all round for your health to recover fully

My current commute is a mile and I work 2×12 hr shifts. I am not sure how practical it is to insist neither of these change – certainly doing a commute over 5 miles would be unacceptable to me and I do like my two day week.

This makes you sound incredibly inflexible.

If early retirement only costs you 750 quid a year, and you’ve frequently said on here that money isn’t an issue for you, retire.

Easy.

On the pension

I am 58 3/4 and intend to retire at 60. Going now under medical retirement would give me the pension I would get at 60 now – but no contributions made up so I would lose a years contributions

You only get the contribution made up if you are incapable of ANY job not because you are incapable of a specific job

moonsaballoon = good point. I guess hours and commute could be my compromise points.

Two things.

1) Do you know what you want to do? If you don’t then it’s difficult to see how you could go after it. What’s the saying, “bring me solutions not problems.”

2) I’d have thought that any competent HR / OH department would shit bricks at the faintest whiff of the idea that an employer had wilfully caused or aggravated an injury to an employee.

OH will just say – ” fit for light duties”

that light duties are not avaiable in my workplace

I have sick pay of 5 months full pay and 6 months half pay

Seems logical to use the great sick pay entitlement you have, as you are clearly not fit for work if no light duties are available.

2) I’d have thought that any competent HR / OH department would shit bricks at the faintest whiff of the idea that an employer had wilfully caused or aggravated an injury to an employee.

Me as well. I expect my line manager to be in trouble for allowing this situation to develop. Not wilful tho – just negligent

Pension decision are not made by my employer – its superannuation – employer makes recommendations to the pensions bods who then decide

I am not sure really what I want hence this thread. some good stuff to ponder thanks folks

recon they will redaploy you.good luck.

My understanding from HR lawyer folk is that these kind of meetings are about sounding out the employee and finding a solution that is the cheapest for the organisation and won’t set a undesirable precedent. Some quite minor stuff can end up in court that way. But I don’t think we are at the lawyer stage quite yet.

P.S have you informed all the local service suppliers that you will soon have more time on your hands ?? As a decent guy you should really give them a fighting chance…

If they try to insist on redeployment rather than a temporary relocation they will have a big fight on their hands where I can quote the policy at them showing its not the appropriate course of action. I would not be surprised if thats what they try to push me into but as you guys might have guessed I am not easy to push around.

I think I will have the policy on my phone ready to quote at them 🙂

Delaying tactics on your part, TJ, would surely get you to the point where you can take the retirement package you’re after.
And make sure you take a mountain of paperwork/reference material into the meeting. Remember how effective it was in that photo of David Davis going empty handed into the meeting with the EU.

Ta again Hels – indeed thats my understanding of the procedure. If they try to push me down a road I do not want I will simply halt the meeting while I get representation and advice.

I do not understand your last comment!

The other complication is that I want to continue to do occasional bank shifts after retirement!

Just bugger off now. Does it really matter if you lose out on a wee bit of money if (a) you can afford it  (b) you know you can make use of your time and (c) you can put any stress behind you? Everyone ever faced with early retirement has had to make the same decision. I didn’t see you as the money-is-all-important-type.

Affording it is marginal and if I chose to go early then the costs will be greater. Pension will be around £8000 pa if I stay till 60, £7250 pa if they pension me off. £6000 pa if its my choice to go now.( or £7250 if I go now but do not take my pension until 60 )

this is why I want to be able to continue doing bank work after retirement so a few shifts over the winter to top me up and if I retire on health grounds NHS work is closed to me

I absolutely wouldn’t contemplate attending a formal attendance meeting without union representation.

If they’re saying that your injury is a permanent disability then you would fall under the provisions of the Equality Act and they are obligated to make reasonable adjustments. “Light duties” elsewhere sounds very much like that. Could you offer to try the new position on a secondment basis, with a view to making it a permanent transfer if it works out for you and your new manager?

Finally, is it really the case that your’re “out and gone” if the new post doesn’t work out after three months? Have a look at what your redeployment policy says.

Yes Ransos it is – redeployment is 3 months trial then if the trial fails you are out with no appeal. Hence wanting the temp relocation instead which has no time limits and if it fails you revert to your old post

You’ve got 5 months of full paid sick leave available and have an injury that is being aggravated by being at work, if the latest incident has set you back several weeks then you shouldn’t be at work. You came back too soon and delayed recovery so the simple option is to get back to the docs, get signed off and see a physio (or maybe change the one you have) and follow their instructions to the letter for 3-5 months while not at work.

You’re trying to hard not to leave them a person down which doesn’t sound like it’s helped anyone. Even if that doesn’t fix it you’d be 5 months closer to 60…

Take someone with you Teej, even if they stay quiet, it balances things up psychologically.

Also, I probably don’t need to say this, but politely but firmly seize the agenda give a recovery date (does not matter if it moves later, people’s recovery times are by nature elastic) quote policy and tell them what you want to do, within scope of policy. Managers do not enjoy these meetings; if you offer solutions within the scope of policy that they can sell to their managers, they’ll likely go with it in my experience (as, and working with nhs managers).

And good luck 👍🏼

All this working malarkey is also impacting your life outside – how is the bike riding coming along?