Politics & the EU – Should Britain leave or stay? And why?

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  • Politics & the EU – Should Britain leave or stay? And why?
  • chewkw
    Member

    I am not right or left but my opinion is EU is just a big club for pen pushers.

    Better leave than stay.

    😆

    tinribz
    Member

    Wade through the self deceptive justifying BS and at best this is just a backward thinking selfish isolationist mindset and worst the last socially acceptable outlet for subconscious racist / xenophobic fears.

    Liberal enough for you?

    http://europa.eu/abc/euslides/index_en.htm

    0303062650
    Member

    Aye, that is fairly liberal!! 😉

    But what are your thoughts? or are those thoughts yours?

    grizzlygus
    Member

    I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of some not-so-right-wing reading/info as to the benefits, or lack of our involvement with the EU

    Very left-wing, and very anti-EU :

    no2eu

    tinribz
    Member

    Yes they are my thoughts based on conversations with people against it.

    Seems obvious to me that a European state is a natural political progression and its aims to equalise and raise standards of living across the continent morally supplier to any silo’ed approach.

    There’s often short term gains to be had being the odd one out and starting as one of the richer states / net contributors will have to mean some winners and losers early on. But this focus on imaginary boundaries and traditions just seems bizzare, people are people and culture is a shallow façade.

    0303062650
    Member

    People of STW,

    I know someone who is a UKIP person (councillor), and they’re always banging on about the EU, the costs associated and that we (Britain) should leave the EU.

    Now, I know very little about this subject, and I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of some not-so-right-wing reading/info as to the benefits, or lack of our involvement with the EU

    Exciting times on a saturday huh?

    I just feel the info’ i’m being told (NHS, Muslims, Border control and other nonsense) is all a bit ‘right wing’ and doesn’t really fit in with my views, so wondered if the supposed predominantly liberal outlook, people of STW had any thoughts/comments?

    Yes, I *AM* rock and roll (posting this on a saturday)

    jt

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    The EU is great in theory, but eventually it will degenerate into a bureaucratic empire and we will be the minions.

    samuri
    Member

    I like the idea of a perfect single european union. It’ll never work though sadly because of power hungry ministers and back stabbing politicans.

    konabunny
    Member

    “Seems obvious to me that a European state is a natural political progression and its aims to equalise and raise standards of living across the continent morally supplier to any silo’ed approach. “

    The other way of looking at it is that the further you remove government from the people, the less democratic it becomes. Why don’t we have the US approach where it’s the other way around: all power should be as local as possible, unless there’s a bloody good reason to escalate it.

    konabunny
    Member

    How does this Councillor link “Muslims” to the EU, by the way?

    Premier Icon vinnyeh
    Subscriber

    What does the EU mean for British industry and trade- would leaving the EU disadvantage Britain in one of it’s biggest markets? The risk of that has always seemed to me to be the main reason for staying in.
    I remmeber the horror in NZ in the 70’s when Britain joined what was to become the EU and almost overnight our main export market for primary produce just about closed to us.

    daveob
    Member

    Until we convert to the Euro we will never really see the benefits of being in the EU IMO. Its like joining a fancy golf club and then never playing. Costs a fortune, sounds good, but with no real benefits.

    konabunny
    Member

    “What does the EU mean for British industry and trade- would leaving the EU disadvantage Britain in one of it’s biggest markets? The risk of that has always seemed to me to be the main reason for staying in.”

    I would assume that most people advocating the UK leaving the EU would still want the UK in EFTA, like Switzerland and Norway (is that right?) – so basically all the trade aspects would remain but the social/political ones would be dumped.

    Premier Icon mAx_hEadSet
    Subscriber

    Wales , Scotland and Northern Ireland have probably picked up eu funding that would not have been invested by the English Parliament.. not a good reason for those living in England though. Given the bullish nature of our poxy governments of late, all those self opinionated anti euro nuts would only likely fuel a worse government and access to the Europan Court of Human Rights has been the saving of many a downtrodden uk citizen against the oppressive might of parliament, and any one argue that such external interference is unwarranted the uk government seems well able to avoid it if necessary as with the DNA database.

    We get good access to loads of lovely cheap labour from eastern europe, and once we get the euro you will see the real scam is the way uk economy is the amount of overcharging that our SME’s have been allowed to hoist on us.. go and look at the car price differential scandal that open eu trading exposed years ago.

    I would think leaving the EU would leave us a small island reliant on the good will and economic benevolence of two large entities to our east and west just like Iceland is. We have no merchant fleet any more and our prices will fluctuate more being driven by world markets than the stability the eu has given.

    The best things to change are to reduce the pen pushing not to walk out.

    konabunny
    Member

    access to the Europan Court of Human Rights has been the saving of many a downtrodden uk citizen

    Much as I love the ECHR, it’s actually part of the Council of Europe, not the European Union, and you don’t have to be in the EU to be in the C of E. The Human Rights Act incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into the various UK laws.

    mudshark
    Member

    We’ve still got Thatcher’s rebate I think? If we lost that I’d want the figures looked at more closely as would wonder if it’s really worth it. Seems to me that it mostly helps the poorer nations who’ve joined at a cost to us but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    I think the best defence against oppressive government is as has already been said here – devolve political power to the local level as much as possible.

    As a Scot I can’t wait for full devolution, but it won’t just benefit Scotland, it will benefit England because their country will then have a parliament that attends to their interests only. Plus they won’t have the obscenity of Scots MPs voting in a bloc (Labour Whip) on purely English matters.

    chewkw
    Member

    Imagine working and living in a large bureaucratic organisation and when you ask a question the reply will always be … “the computer say noooo….” or it’s not my decision it comes from the “top” but who are those at the top? Nobody knows.

    In theory it might be good but why in a hurry to join? It is not as if we will starve just because we are not in EU.

    mogrim
    Member

    It is not as if we will starve just because we are not in EU.

    Well, I might – at the end of the day the only reason I can live and work without going through green-card style visa applications in Spain is thanks to the EU.

    How about looking at it from the other point of view – how much does the EU cost, and why wouldn’t you want to be part of it?

    samuri
    Member

    Looking through the internet, the cost for a Uk person of being in the Uk varies from 68 quid to 200 quid per annum.

    Massively bigger picture outlook though, just an idea….

    Why should there be geographical groupings, or continental unions, or even countries? It just comes down to business at the end of the day but if people were to look at the benefit of the human race, then a complete unified global economy is the way forwards. Obviously it’ll never happen but as a concept that to me sounds the thing to try, and a european union is the place to start. After that an asian integration, slav acceptance and then african inclusion. Then all you need to do is get America on board and we’re all doing everything together.

    chewkw
    Member

    Well, I might – at the end of the day the only reason I can live and work without going through green-card style visa applications in Spain is thanks to the EU.

    The present system is good enough to enable everyone to mover around in EU so I do not see any reason to progress to full EU membership.

    How about looking at it from the other point of view – how much does the EU cost, and why wouldn’t you want to be part of it?

    Cost is not a concern but bureaucracy is. Large is not always beautiful.

    JxL
    Member

    Having been brought up in Lithuania, joining the EU was pretty much a revolution in terms of being protected against another Russian invasion (which was on up till 1990’s).

    Now however having lived in England for around 8 years and recently taking a bigger interest in politics it seems little sense for Britain, being a superpower, staying in the EU. Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats??

    I tend to have more leftist views, yet now leaning more towards conservatives, especially intrigued by Daniel Hannan and his political views, which at least to me mostly make sense.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    especially intrigued by Daniel Hannan and his political views, which at least to me mostly make sense.

    You support scrapping the National Health Service then ?

    Because according to Daniel Hannan the NHS is a 60 year mistake which makes people ‘iller’ ! ! !

    Yep, according to moronic right-wing fcukwit, the NHS actually make people MORE ILL ! 😯

    Here is a video you might not have seen, in which he denounces the British NHS and urges the Americans to keep their existing health provisions.

    Britain’s Dan Hannan: Nationalized healthcare has made us iller

    BTW, it is generally accepted that US health care is the most inefficient and worst money for value of any in the world. Also millions of US citizens have no health cover at all.

    Personally I think the Tories should have the good sense to throw Daniel Hannan out of their party – he clearly belongs in some loony extreme right-wing neo-conservative/fascist party.

    JxL
    Member

    Nope, just because I am intrigued by Daniel Hannan it does not mean I support ALL of his policies, although most do make sense. I do not agree with his views about NHS though.

    I think it is his character and passion that strikes me, having the balls to stand up for himself in front of everybody. He does have a good point about the Lisbon Treaty, and appears to encourage democracy rather than power-grabbing-EU-president.

    I would disagree him being “extreme right wing”, since in this case he should be boasting racial abuse, encouraging teaching abstinence in schools, condemning homosexuals and anybody different and using <bits> of the bible to give reason to such nonsense (what seems to be the case with American Republicans).

    grizzlygus
    Member

    just because I am intrigued by Daniel Hannan it does not mean I support ALL of his policies ……….appears to encourage democracy

    I think that his opposition to the NHS goes to the very heart of his fundamental political beliefs. So I’m not sure how you can simply dismiss it as just one policy which you don’t agree with.

    And I’m not sure how strong his commitment to ‘democracy’ is. He was elected to represent the people of South East England, opinion polls after opinion polls show consistently, that the NHS is one of the most, if not the most, respected institution in British society. Opposing and denouncing the NHS is clearly not representing the views of your electorate.

    Pro EU here – very strongly so. Pro euro as well. If we had joined the Euro it would have been a stronger currency than it is and we would have been much better placed in the credit crunch.

    As for the EU – together we are stronger. what I would like to see is a much stronger EU controlling macro economic policy and defense with most other stuff devolved down to smaller political entities so national governments lose their function.

    We are certainly richer as a result of being in the EU and have better legal protection

    Gus, if you want to critisise Hannan’s take on the NHS, and other issues, then I would suggest you go and read “the plan” and his alternatives, what they based on, and why he feels it would work – rather than just trying to dismiss them out of hand.

    Personally, I think the Singapore method he puts forward seems a substantial improvement, however I do have some reservations on whether it sways people from early medical intervention, but would like to see the data.

    I also have to say his ideas of local sales tax replacing VAT, dissemination of powers to a local level and electoral involvement in the direction of policing are thoroughly good ideas.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    “We are certainly richer as a result of being in the EU

    Yeah right …. and joining the Common Market created all those jobs, didn’t it ?

    So how come unemployment levels have never come down to what they were before we joined then ?

    “and have better legal protection”

    What are you saying – that we can’t pass our own laws ? How did we manage before ?

    grizzlygus
    Member

    Ratty – you honestly expect me to read something by Daniel Hannan ? 😯

    I saw the interview he gave in which he told the US that the British NHS was making people “iller”. That was enough for me thank you.

    BTW, denouncing the British prime minister before an international audience, then denouncing a much loved British institution before an American audience ……. I see a pattern emerging here.

    No Gus,

    I don’t expect you to read the document (The Plan: twelve months to renew Britain) you’re trying to criticise

    I would expect you to snipe and jump to conclusions based on ignorance of what he’s actually saying, whilst all the time defending the crumbling status quo.

    As Hannan says in the book – the first step in improving healthcare in our country is realising and admitting that the NHS has significant failings – the comment about “making people iller” refers to the fact that the NHS is formatted to treat things rather then prevent them. A fair point!

    Woe betide that we should allow anyone to look for alternatives or solutions that do not serve to prop up a statist, interventionist political elite – no, we’ll close down debate by shouting “he wants to get rid of the NHS”

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    I’m generally pro-european and pro union, but I find it pretty hard to be a big supporter of the current EU. Still, I don’t believe that isolating ourselves is the way to go either. The fact is we’re a small player in a big game.

    bigrich
    Member

    joining the euro = cheaper alps holidays.

    konabunny
    Member

    “it seems little sense for Britain, being a superpower…”

    The UK is not a Superpower (and perhaps the era of Superpowers is over).

    “Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats??”

    That’s possibly true by sheer numbers – but it may be that 90% of that is incredibly tedious regulatory stuff, like standard size for fire exit signs (or something). Most likely most law in the UK is made by regulatory bodies rather than Parliament too.

    In other words, the statistic alone doesn’t worry me, but the underlying issue might.

    juan
    Member

    Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats

    Yes by people you chose to vote (or not) for.

    Eu allows me to go and visit my friend/family in spain, UK without the need of a passeport. Go and ride my bike 50 kms from home without the need for a complete check of me my car and my bike.

    Countries such as spain/portugal have seen a massive increase of health standard thanks to EU.

    I think the economic crisis would have been less important if UK had the euro currency.

    One of the think I have failed to understand during my 4 years in UK is why brits seems to be so close to the US and not to the country that are around the corner…

    EDIT actually in my last sentence, read english rather than brits…

    JxL
    Member

    A bit off topic, but this morning on the way to university on M55 I saw one of those small planes and a message “stop the EU rip off” or so (it was going the other way, so hard to read backwards while on motorway).

    Anybody else seen it?

    One of the think I have failed to understand during my 4 years in UK is why brits seems to be so close to the US and not to the country that are around the corner…

    EDIT actually in my last sentence, read english rather than brits

    Maybe they get a little distanced when people from those countries round the corner are constantly denegrating the place with sweeping generalisations about its bad food, bad riding, bad politics ( see a pattern developing ?), beliefs that conform to stereotyping of the worst possible kind.

    FWIW, I am English and very pro EU.

    juan
    Member

    Trailmonkey my edit was jut because at the end off the day I don’t really know any brits that’s not english…
    Sounds like someone is a bit touchy here…

    Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats

    Yes by people you chose to vote (or not) for

    But thats simply not true is it – they’re voted on by a small number of people that you as a nation voted for and a whole bunch of other people that have nothing to do with you – how on earth can a majority legislature apply rules that suit the desires, needs, concerns and diverse circumstances of local communities across an entire continent?

    The biggest concern of the British people is probably the reluctance of the European movement to accept democracy – as seen with the referenda on the EU constitution. The EU is fundamentally NOT a democratic organisation.

    surfer
    Member

    One of the think I have failed to understand during my 4 years in UK is why brits seems to be so close to the US and not to the country that are around the corner…

    Shared language.

    mogrim
    Member

    But thats simply not true is it – they’re voted on by a small number of people that you as a nation voted for and a whole bunch of other people that have nothing to do with you – how on earth can a majority legislature apply rules that suit the desires, needs, concerns and diverse circumstances of local communities across an entire continent?

    It can’t, but then the same argument can be used for any political body, right down to council level. The same Westminster government decides on laws applicable to Northumberland and Cornwall, London and Caerphilly… EU level decision making is ideal for a great many things, for example those relating to H&S, standards, free markets.

    I’d like a fully federal EU, with clearly delimited authority, not the squabbling mess we have at the moment.

    G
    Member

    The bottom line with the EU was that it was set up to foster economic interdependancy so that we stopped fighting each other. In that it has been singularly successful.

    My take on it is that if I have to pay a wee bit more in tax or whatever and it stops my son dying in a soggy trench then thats great with me.

    Being inmy 50’s I can remember how things were pre EU and there is no way whatsoever that we were better off then, than we are now. The reality is that we’re in it for better or worse and pulling out isn’t really a viable option. So lets just get on with it and work at making it better.

    Regarding UKIP: A group of insular xenaphobic twunts IMHO. They have no realistic policies, no positive message and they almost had that dayglo orange twunt as a leader. Says all I need to know about it frankly.

    the NHS is formatted to treat things rather then prevent them

    Huh, what about preventative medicine?

    In many ways the NHS sucks, but compared to other health systems it is incredibly efficient. Particularly compared to systems involving private medical insurers (the US system that he loves so much costs roughly twice as much, and gets much worse outcomes, in addition to not covering a large percentage of the population at all).

    Joe

    konabunny
    Member

    sweeping generalisations about its bad food, bad riding, bad politics ( see a pattern developing ?), beliefs that conform to stereotyping of the worst possible kind.

    Really? Someone said British food is rubbish and that’s stereotyping of the worst possible kind? Like, Der Stürmer bad?

    mogrim
    Member

    Maybe they get a little distanced when people from those countries round the corner are constantly denegrating the place with sweeping generalisations about its bad food, bad riding, bad politics ( see a pattern developing ?), beliefs that conform to stereotyping of the worst possible kind

    Our US cousins do it about us, too – we’re all stuck up, posh voices, bad teeth… Most (maybe all?) countries have popular stereotypes about other countries, GB gives as good as it gets on this front.

    I’d say the main reason the UK and the US get along so well are two world wars, cemented by a massive two-way cultural exchange (possible thanks to the common(ish) language)after WWII.

    Really? Someone said British food is rubbish and that’s stereotyping of the worst possible kind? Like, Der Stürmer bad?

    Yeah, today dissing toad in the hole, tomorrow Kristalnacht.

    OK, maybe not that bad but it’s all finding excuses to dislike people.

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