Police Kettling Cyclists outside Olympic Opening

Third time lucky. Mike >

It’s quite clear you have little or no understanding of CM rides, as the ‘primary objective’ is not to do as you say.

What is the primary objective?

What is the primary objective?

Well, there is no specified ‘primary objective’, hence why I challenged certain opinions. Critical Mass is all about people who enjoy cycling in London meeting up once a moth to enjoy riding in a group of other like-minded individuals. That’s the reason I and others I know go along. For me and many others, the politics is secondary to the ride itself.

This has been an interesting if frustrating discussion, but I hope that people will think more about how to have events like this in a more positive way, which gives all cycling a better public image. I concede this is not an easy task, and no solution can ever be universally perfect. I would also urge those doubters amongst you to come down and join in, see for yourself what the experience is like. Let’s look for positives, not dwell always on the negatives.

Mike – my experience of being abused by CM riders (Edinburgh, not London) whilst cycling past them on my way home one night does not encourage me to want anything to do with them. You want the doubters to join in, preventing that sort of behaviour might be a good start

Critical Mass is all about people who enjoy cycling in London meeting up once a moth to enjoy riding in a group of other like-minded individuals.

So why not meet up and then ride off in several smaller groups? You still get your rides, no-one else is inconvenienced, everyone’s happy. No?

The reaction on here of people so willing to denigrate protestors is quite alarming but not suprising, we have a state that attacks all the weakest in society, rewards the rich and protects their own interests at all costs, so any group going against the grain is going to be demonised.

in germany in the late thirties very similar things happened, attacks on minority groups, eventually ‘ordinary’ people found themselves doing some very extrodinary things— only obeying orders !

Before the wolf pack round on me, i’m not saying this is what will happen just showing how easy it is to be swept along on a reactionary tide, and whether willingly or not you are doing the masters work for them.

Good luck mikeconnor, i feel that your words are wasted on here, i’ve had similar on other sites, internet does attract a specific kind of reactionary, who is good with a keyboard but not much else.

The police do not have the legal power to demand people avoid certain areas unless it is to prevent breach of the peace, or for safety reasons

So what.
The Police stated restrictions, due to whatever, could be Olympics, could be to avoid too much traffic build up, could be for saftey, could be anything. So what if they have no legal power to impose that restriction?
Cyclists obviously answered back, saying “No we have a legal right to go there”, so we are going there. That IMHO made it a protest ride.

If this was a friendly monthly ride, which is normally ridden in cooperation with the Police, you do as Police ask. End of!

Let’s look for positives, not dwell always on the negatives.

Agree – but as in many posts earlier, there are many positives. Boris bikes, blue superhighways, cycle to work, etc. CM (now) is not one of them in the general public eye.

I’m sorry Mike. I started out with no particular feeling about CM before Friday’s events, however if you think the disingenuous self-serving twaddle you are using to justify those events is helping people ‘understand’ CM I fear you are sadly mistaken. The arguments you’ve put here are just counter-productive as far as I can see.

in germany in the late thirties very similar things happened, attacks on minority groups, eventually ‘ordinary’ people found themselves doing some very extrodinary things— only obeying orders !

I wondered how long it would be before Godwin’s Law would appear.

So far I’ve not seen anyone come up with any ideas of how to promote cycling in our cities, more effectively. Just a lot of moaning and prejudice. Maybe it would be more productive to seek solutions, than continue to be negative.

And who created the most negative press for cyclists this week? A thread on STW or Counter-productive Muppets?

So if anybody disagrees with the press officer’s view of CM,then we are prejudiced? It’s like this you patronising idiot; It is cyclists who use this forum. You may have chosen to ignore the fact, but when even other bike users condemn your tactics,it is a sign you are getting it badly wrong. I also like the way you try to justify blocking junctions,especially in the manner you do. Stopping dead for five mins is a little more than crossing. Actually that is reason for the police to act; public safety.Despite your attempts to dismiss it as a monthly ride,it was a deliberate attempt to disrupt as much of the opening ceremony as possible, as shown by the farcical claims about Beckham.

Maybe go and look at the footage posted above of the actions of your members…tell you what, lets be specific; what is your opinion of the guy kicking the legs away from the female cop,is that justifed? Or the rather sprightly disabled man,are his actions justified? Please enlighten me.
It’s like this, if you cause an obstruction, you will be moved on; if you refuse to move you may be detained, if you resist, you WILL be detained. Of course you will feel that you were not causing an obstruction,just ensuring you could stay together.

Couple of other Q’s; What is a non organised,loose group of cyclists doing going to the house of lords to get their status defined? That sound very, well organised to me. And why do you seem strangely reluctant to comment on any footage that shows you assaulting police,blocking junctions aggressively?

Junkyard; thanks for that comment the other night,hopefully a corner turned.

imnotverygood +1 to both posts

rudebwoy – stretching the “elastic” of the argument that far is likely to lead to either a painful snap back or a total breakdown. Not very likely to help the cause of cyclists though.

i’ve had similar on other sites, internet does attract a specific kind of reactionary, who is good with a keyboard but not much else.

Thank God we have you to do it for us then.

Good luck mikeconnor, i feel that your words are wasted on here, i’ve had similar on other sites, internet does attract a specific kind of reactionary, who is good with a keyboard but not much else.

Thank you rudebwoy. (I’ve learned how to use the quote function!) As i said it’s been frustrating at times and I apologise if anyone feels I’ve been rude to them, it’s easy to get a bit carried away on a topic you feel strongly about!

I still feel there’s too much judgmental prejudice going on, and people expressing their own individual views as that of greater society’s, and I would like to try to help people see an alternative view of things. I can appreciate that many people will have a negative view of CM, but it does seem apparent that some really have very little idea about what CM rides and participants are really like. I do feel it’s important to discuss such matters openly and honestly though, and i thank those who have contributed in such a way. Some interesting points of view to consider.

So what.
The Police stated restrictions, due to whatever, could be Olympics, could be to avoid too much traffic build up, could be for saftey, could be anything. So what if they have no legal power to impose that restriction?

Well it’s vital that we all strive to uphold the Law. the police, like everyone else, have to act within a legal framework. They do not have special dispensation to act as they please, no matter what the circumstances. Their powers exist through consensus of the people. They cannot simply choose which groups to target and obstruct. If they have legitimate, legally justifiable reasons to act in the manner that they did, fine. It does not at present appear to be the case here though. Which is very worrying in the context of a supposedly free and democratic society.

CM (now) is not one of them in the general public eye.

I disagree, as one of the ‘general public’. What qualifies you to speak for others? I’m sorry, but that view is simply your own, and whilst it may be shared by others, it is not universal and does not in any way constitute a consensus of opinion. Please do not try to present it as such, and please accept that others have differing yet equally valid opinions.

Shall we hold a poll?

I’m figuring the arrested were nicked for wilful obstruction of the highway yes?

That’s what I see from that YouTube footage anyways. You serve just to inconvenience the other road users by deliberately blocking busy junctions, under the thin veil of a harmless group cycle ride. Utter rubbish

mikeconnor – Member
… and please accept that others have differing yet equally valid opinions.

Quite and very apt, if ironic! 😉

So perhaps time for thread closure. This roundabout has been circled enough – time to unblock for the other traffic?

Mike, now that you’re one of us, you need to become something other than a single issue poster. There are many, many other favourite subjects that will crop up with depressing regularity, 26ers vs 29ers, helmet or no helmet, atheism vs usually Christianity, atheism vs mrsbarnsleymitches chest, tubeless vs tubes, roadies vs mountain bikers, trail centres vs natural trails, rotating weight vs weight, electrolytes for cramp or not, the Olympics; farce or wonder, North vs South, Should I talk to people on the tube?, Why won’t people stop talking to me on buses in Manchester, Scotland vs the world, the World vs Scotland, Arsenal, Man U, Spain; footballing geniuses or tedium encapsulated, What do you put in your Camelbak, space blankets as a seduction aid, horas penis, horas beautiful penis, hora and his penis adventures, not to mention the ever popular although somewhat seasonal What lights? threads.

Leave this now and raise your game laddie!

Duckman; it seems you have deeply entrenched views about the events of last Friday, which I suspect you will not be willing to have challenged. You resent being accused of being ‘prejudiced’ yet you use accusatory, inflammatory and prejudicial language in relation to participants of CM. Were you at the event on Friday? Did you witness all that happened both at Blackfriars road and at Bow Church? As I’ve said, accounts I have heard from eyewitnesses differ in their viewpoint to your own. How can you support your claim that those at Bow Church were definitely there with the sole intention of disrupting the Olympics? Do you have evidence to support such a wild accusation, or is such vitriol a result of your own prejudice?

Shall we hold a poll?

That would be interesting, if we could get those who attended the event themselves, to take part. I wonder what the general tone would be like if both ‘sides’ were represented equally?

If the police ask me not to go on a certain “right of way”… I comply. I find a different way.

I don’t start using my wiki lawyer skills to determine if that request is legally valid, or because there’s no police cordon that street still remains legal right of way. Nor do I start working out if the number of people in my group constitutes a “gathering” for the purposes of determining a protest group/march in central London.

I/we just go another way. Maybe other cyclists are different.

Well it’s vital that we all strive to uphold the Law. the police, like everyone else, have to act within a legal framework. They do not have special dispensation to act as they please,

like protesters celebrationists riding through red lights and obstructing the highway?

no matter what the circumstances. Their powers exist through consensus of the people. They cannot simply choose which groups to target and obstruct.

Like choosing not to target and punish people who run through red lights, or for that matter assault police officers in the execution of their duty.

If they have legitimate, legally justifiable reasons to act in the manner that they did, fine. It does not at present appear to be the case here though. Which is very worrying in the context of a supposedly free and democratic society.

Indeed, I fully support the right of people to peacefully protest… the only problem being that you claim its not a protest 😉

I’m figuring the arrested were nicked for wilful obstruction of the highway yes?

Well none have been charged as such, so I’ve no idea why they were arrested.

Mike, now that you’re one of us, you need to become something other than a single issue poster.

I’m sorry! I have been reading this forum for a while, and it is at times very interesting, although quite confrontational in it’s tone I feel. And I’ve been sucked in! I do feel passionately about issues surrounding cycling in London and everywhere else though, which is why I’ve signed up.

I will endeavour to discuss bikes more in the future, I promise!

Well none have been charged as such, so I’ve no idea why they were arrested.

Arrested to prevent a breach of the peace, which is a perfectly legitimate, legally justifiable reason for the police to act as they did, and no, they don’t have to charge anyone with a criminal offence afterwards – I would suggest that if you want to get all technical on it, you’ll be in for a nasty surprise on just how expansive that common law power of arrest is 8)

See below for a perfect example.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15697632

So, its OK for the police to arrest 179 EDL members to prevent a breach of the peace, and only charge three of them is it?

I guess Critical Mass aren’t going to jump up and tell us how arresting EDL members is equivalent to living in a police state and a suppression of their human rights?

That would be interesting, if we could get those who attended the event themselves, to take part. I wonder what the general tone would be like if both ‘sides’ were represented equally?

Yes, but you have been glibly talking about the General Public’s view of CM.

So to make it fair. You get the 500 people who attended the Critical Mass ‘celebration’ & I’ll rustle up the other 56 million members of the population.

Arrested to prevent a breach of the peace, which is a perfectly legitimate, legally justifiable reason for the police to act as they did, and no, they don’t have to charge anyone with a criminal offence afterwards

Did the police have ‘reasonable suspicion’ that a breach of the peace was indeed going to take place? Because CM is almost always peaceful with no arrests and without any breach of the peace occurring. Did the police have any other information to suggest this? Because in order for a police officer to arrest somebody, ‘reasonable suspicion’ must be justified. I have not seen or heard anything so far which supports this. Then there are numerous allegations that people were denied food and water, adequate toilet facilities, and access to legal representation.

CM participants are nothing like the EDL, and do not have any comparable history of causing public disorder. You would know this, if you ever participated in a CM ride of course.

So to make it fair. You get the 500 people who attended the Critical Mass ‘celebration’ & I’ll rustle up the other 56 million members of the population.

As long as all information is made available to everyone without prejudice, I have no problem with that!

If the police ask me not to go on a certain “right of way”… I comply. I find a different way.

I do if I am given a legitimate and legally justifiable reason for the officer’s request. Other wise I ignore (and have done so on numerous occasions) the request. I would do so safe in the knowledge i am breaking no law.

I do think it’s very important that people fully understand the extent and limitations of police powers as well as their own legal obligations. Because if everyone did so, there would be less confusion on both sides, and less cause for conflict.

Mike >

Critical Mass is all about people who enjoy cycling in London meeting up once a moth to enjoy riding in a group of other like-minded individuals.

So why not meet up and then ride off in several smaller groups? You still get your rides, no-one else is inconvenienced, everyone’s happy. No?

So why not meet up and then ride off in several smaller groups? You still get your rides, no-one else is inconvenienced, everyone’s happy. No?

Why can’t I ride with who I chose, regardless of group size?

I do if I am given a legitimate and legally justifiable reason for the officer’s request. Other wise I ignore (and have done so on numerous occasions) the request. I would do so safe in the knowledge i am breaking no law.

Those Southern police are far too nice…

in my opinion, these are the things that have happened to increase cycling in Britain’s cities and make it better for cyclists:
– cycle to work scheme
– a recession
– increasing tube/ train/ petrol prices
– companies providing changing facilities for cyclists/ joggers
– Lottery/ British Cycling investing in and raising the profile of cycle sport in the UK

Not Critical Mass.

Did the police have ‘reasonable suspicion’ that a breach of the peace was indeed going to take place? Because CM is almost always peaceful with no arrests and without any breach of the peace occurring.

I saw a fairly extensive BOP in that video posted earlier.

Did the police have any other information to suggest this? Because in order for a police officer to arrest somebody, ‘reasonable suspicion’ must be justified. I have not seen or heard anything so far which supports this

Failing to heed requests to stay away from the olympic routes and repeatedly blocking them, plus the behaviour seen in the video is more than ample proof that there was a reasonable suspicion that there would be a BOP if steps were not taken to rein them in.

Then there are numerous allegations that people were denied food and water, adequate toilet facilities, and access to legal representation.

Which makes them sound like a bunch of whiny little children.

As foryour point that the EDL are different and CM have no history of public disorder…. I’ve not seen any video of the EDL assaulting police officers and repeatedly breaking the law by riding through red lights and obstructing the highway, or standing in the street shouting ‘**** the police’ and ‘**** the olympics’

Mikeconnor – I’ll offer you one simple challenge… Give me one reason why every single protester celebrationist that I saw on that video should not be prosecuted for cycling through a red light.

Why can’t I ride with who I chose, regardless of group size?

You can. But it’s selfish. No-one’s stopping you though (other than for one day in one small area).

We’re going round in circles here now. What do you gain with such a large group over a couple of smaller ones?

What would you lose over a compromise that makes everyone happy rather than just your group?

Critical Mass is all about people who enjoy cycling in London meeting up once a moth to enjoy riding in a group of other like-minded individuals.

I ride once a day with thousands of other like minded individuals on my daily commute. On this evening’s edition, not one of our number assaulted a policeman. And, yes, while there are a minority who are still RLJing asshats, none of us deliberately blocked large junctions for a long period of time. Also, when the police were calmly and politely asking people to use a different route around some Games related diversions, no one that I saw told them to **** off.

I like to think that we, as a group, contributed to making cycling better.

mikeconnor – Member

Did the police have ‘reasonable suspicion’ that a breach of the peace was indeed going to take place?

In fact as a point of accuracy the power of arrest for Breach of the Peace is ‘reasonably believes’, which is a HIGHER test than mere suspicion.

On this occasion the CM counter culture were playing at being agent provocateur’s (without a great deal of sophistication) – and it backfired. Simple as that.

No surprise there then, how about your own members twitter feeds? about disruption of the olympics…is that evidence enough? Or is it just vitriol on my part? Also, I am still waiting for you to justify the cases I pointed out…But you can’t can you? Of course I was not there; but am I not part of the general public to are trying to convince of your cause? Sorry forgot you don’t have one. And again you claim the police cannot act as they will yet again ignoring the very fact that your own members..sorry people who just happened to turn up for an informal ride.You are full of it, trying to claim,as you have done right through this thread, that anybody who disagrees with your groups methods is wrong.

Just so we are clear,these are my “prejudices” and “deeply entrenched views”

1) An arse is still an arse if they own a bike
2) Your demo WAS designed to disrupt as much of the Olympic ceremony as possible
3) The blocking of junctions is and was more than ensuring that the riders can stay together.
4) Your members deserved to be arrested for that, as it is a breach of the peace,despite any claims you were making that the police can’t do it,I am afraid they can.
5) CM is an organisation,having both a press officer and access to QC’s is a wee bit more that a Thursday ride.
6) Your members assaulted and crowded the police who were trying to move you on from the junction your members had chosen to block.
7) As stated above, your members took to twitter to boast of the disruption they were going to cause.
8 ) Your members assaulted the police.

I have taken part in the Edinburgh rides many moons ago, couldn’t be more different to that one.

Go on then challenge my prejudices; It would seem far more people on here share at least some of them than side with you. In your second post you admit that there is an element that is out for trouble, yet seem to want to justify their actions,despite the damage they do your perceived cause, sorry; you don’t have a cause,do you? That is strange IMO.

OP here. I started this thread with no knowledge of Critical Mass (hence the title, it could well have been ‘Asshat hipsters on fixies punch policeman’ or ‘democracy in tatters; the story of a gentle bikeride’ by the sounds of it. I hope this demonstrates that not all (if any) of STW are reactionary bigots)
Mike, thanks for coming along.
I don’t want this thread closed, let’s keep it civil.

One thing though – It seems CM are trying to change some perceptions. I don’t understand why they are getting rolled up in the (forgive my airquotes) ‘pro-democracy’, ‘anti-police telling us what to do’ scene. It’s all very anti-establishment. Surely the best course of action would be to work with the establishment (including complying with coppers’ reasonable, polite requests) such to bring about change quickly, instead of seemingly rallying against authority. Yes I appreciate the arguments that CM is not organised, that it HAS contributed to change in an establishment friendly way. But why has this anti-establishment incident occurred, unless there is some culture inherent to the bikeride that permits it?

Whereas i saw a video of a police officer using disproportionate force against the first guy with the bike, a woman trying to get him to calm down perhaps, then the officer seemingly losing control and becoming quite agitated

Do they give out the Acid before the ride or do you need to bring your own?

I am inconvenieced by motorists practically every journey I make by bike, yet i accept that as part of riding in a large city.

If they ever start doing it deliberately let us know how you feel

Compromise is the key here. But the main problem which exists is that instead of sharing the space on our roads, we end up having to compete for it. Which is why we arrive at a position of conflict.

LOL just LOL
yes you are certainly helping to share the roads and reduce conflict…THANK YOU

Do you who oppose CM align yourselves with those who oppose mountain bikeing, or do you believe you are entitled to act as you see fit?

As i have mentioned I think some MTB ers are irresponsible. Personally i dont always respect the law but i do it responsibly… I dont go to popular footpaths with 50 of my mates on a BH and protest to get my rights…I doubt it will help persuade ramblers to respect us

but when even other bike users condemn your tactics,it is a sign you are getting it badly wrong.

THIS A MILLION TIMES

I still feel there’s too much judgmental prejudice going on, and people expressing their own individual views as that of greater society’s, and I would like to try to help people see an alternative view of things.

You mean we still disagree with you…..in what sense are you open minded? Frankly that just comes over as you patronising me.
I often find when Hippy/anarchists/pothead types have run out of rational argument they appeal to me to be open minded whether talking about ley lines, druidhs, aliens or any other guff they are spouting. it is never convincing

do think it’s very important that people fully understand the extent and limitations of police powers as well as their own legal obligations. Because if everyone did so, there would be less confusion on both sides, and less cause for conflict.

See that bit i said earlier about you being aware of your rights and not aware of your responsibilities…it still applies ut now in bucketloads
You rright its the cippers fault you are not at all bolshie or provocative…they are just misinformed

Oh dear. Mike – you’re on a cycling forum. This is meant to be your natural audience. Your core support! See much of it, do you? Does that not tell you something? Like Maybe you should try changing your approach. If its winning you sod all sympathy with a group who would be your natural allies, then you’re getting something very very very wrong.

But don’t bother taking any of this on board. Just dismiss us, in a very messianic, blairite style, in the most condescending manner imaginable, as all being wrong. As you clearly couldn’t possibly be wrong, could you?

I’m prepared to go out on a limb here and guess that the people on here readily criticising you, are people who probably have a lot more knowledge on the subject, about riding on city streets. And compromise is indeed the answer. Though, despite you claiming this, I see precious little of it from CM.

Do you not find it ironic that James Murdoch in sponsoring the Skyride etc, and Boris Johnson and Barclays for that matter, have done more for cycling than you?

ok binners, no need to twist the knife.

I often find when Hippy/anarchists/pothead types have run out of rational argument they appeal to me to be open minded whether talking about ley lines, druidhs, aliens or any other guff they are spouting. it is never convincing

JY, you’re not helping our cause here 😉

I do if I am given a legitimate and legally justifiable reason for the officer’s request. Other wise I ignore (and have done so on numerous occasions) the request.

Fair enough.

And the 99% of us are not wiki lawyers, haven’t read up on the exact intricacies of police powers, the full extents of the road traffic and rights of way acts, the acts and specific legislation for London covering gatherings and protests, etc. etc.

And I’d wager that if CM really is just a group of cyclists meeting for a ride with no agenda, then a significant portion of them won’t have read up on those exact applicable bits of legislation either.

Fair enough.

And the 99% of us are not wiki lawyers, haven’t read up on the exact intricacies of police powers, the full extents of the road traffic and rights of way acts, the acts and specific legislation for London covering gatherings and protests, etc. etc.

And I’d wager that if CM really is just a group of cyclists meeting for a ride with no agenda, then a significant portion of them won’t have read up on those exact applicable bits of legislation either.
I know of them and I’m not even in CM, what does that make me? The most anti-establishment thing I have done today is eat a microwave chicken korma, if that counts 😀