Plane crash in the alps

every day we put our trust in other peoples ability to do their job, lgv and bus and coach drivers, signal men on the railway, train drivers and lots more, any one who could be having a bad day and over ride systems put in to kep us safe, but they dont usually decide to kill innocent people.

If somebody deliberately killed anyone i knew , id want to know why they did it and how all the systems and magement of that person was allowed to fail.

A lot of serious questions need to be asked of those in authority about the care and management the co pilot had prior to his death.

The CEO of Lufthansa is now not even considering the word ‘suicide’ but something else more serious.

This is the one I was thinking of

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185

@project you can say its sad to call the co-pilot a mass murderer but it does look incredibly likely that that is exactly what he is. Stories and quotes now from fellow flight school pupils who said he had a burn out / depression and took 6 months off flight training.

We’d be using a different word if he followed a certain popular religion…

Access to the cockpit did not factor in the Helios crash.

One thing I have not seen mentioned, and I have read the report, is how the male cabin crew member could have been alive so long and got to the cockpit just before the engines ran out of fuel. Someone did use all the portable oxygen bottles so it must have been him. I guess the CVR only stores the last bit of flight so he could have been active and trying to take action earlier than the report suggests. I guess we will never know.

I personally haven’t speculated at all, just commented on official announcements

Based on official announcements it was deliberate and thus clearly in my view premeditated. Whether the individual was of sound mind I could not say but that still makes him a murderer as far as I am concerned.
No, no speculations or judgements there at all.

Speak for yourself.

No aircraft has ever crashed when flying on auto pilot or cat 3A auto land in zero visibility.

If you insisted on every single commercial flight making an autoland you’ll be plucking aircraft out of the terminal buildings and the grass at the side of the runway on a daily basis.

Autoland is good, but a huge number of conditions need to be satisfied for it to be safe. You’d be surprised at what constitutes a “satisfactory” autoland, ‘cos I needed new underwear afterwards.

Edit: Oh yes, forgot about this…
http://avherald.com/h?article=445873f3

Access to the cockpit did not factor in the Helios crash.

Are you sure about that. My impression was that the flight attendant , who was a CPL, only just managed to gain access to the flight deck a minute or so before the first engine ran out of fuel. The aircraft spent over an hour in the hold, which implies to me that had he had the time he might have been able to save the plane.

imnotverygood, you’re right, if he’d got into the flight deck earlier, things may have been different.
That’s why cabin crew are now trained to act differently in that sort of situation – they won’t just sit there on oxygen and wait. But equally, without going into detail, that’s not really related to the door being locked.

Are you sure about that. My impression was that the flight attendant , who was a CPL, only just managed to gain access to the flight deck a minute or so before the first engine ran out of fuel. The aircraft spent over an hour in the hold, which implies to me that had he had the time he might have been able to save the plane.

I don’t recall seeing any mention of it in the official report and the cockpit door showed no sign of pre-accident damage and they heard the keypad being used on the CVR when he gained entry.

They concluded that the flight attendant was not capable of saving the plane due to lack of experience and probable effects of hypoxia himself IIRC. He was transmitting a mayday on the wrong channel so they had no way to talk to him to tell him how to fly the plane. He did have a CPL but no 737 certification.

I don’t think we will ever know if he was trying to get into the cockpit for an hour or had access for an hour. No way to tell. It could be just a case that when he was using he oxygen in the cabin and didn’t realise the flight crew were not flying the plane until he saw the F16 and decided to check, all be it too late.

The F16 fighter pilots did see some passengers with masks on but their supply would have only lasted 12 minutes or so. The bodies they examined showed signs of heart and lung function (blood in them) at time of death but they concluded irreversible coma due to lack of oxygen.

I’m surprised there hasn’t been an existing protocol for 2 people in the flight deck at all times – have we been flying planes for years now with armoured doors in the hope the pilot left would never suffer a medical emergency?

Just an awful thing. Seems to be an increasing number of crashes of late which makes flying less ‘stress free’ to me anyway.

have we been flying planes for years now with armoured doors in the hope the pilot left would never suffer a medical emergency?

No, they thought of that, the doors can be opened from the outside unless someone inside specifically prevents it.

(Of course that may not help if the medical emergency is some kind of psychotic episode or causes them to be in a confused state).

Interesting reading here
http://time.com/3760283/germanwings-german-pilots-association/

And a video linked in to the wording

“Airbus has a YouTube video to instruct A320 crew members about what to do if one of them is trying to get inside the cockpit, but those inside do not open. According to the video, the crew would tap an emergency code on the keypad outside the cockpit door, setting off a 30-second alarm inside the cockpit, until the door opens for just five seconds, allowing the person to enter.”

Trek, I’m no advocate of pilotless aircraft but the reality is that back in the 50’s and 60’s pilots came from miltary backgrounds where ‘by the seat of the pants flying’ was the thing and despite far less reliable aiircraft than we have today flying was safe enough to prosper. These days with the lack of supply of pilots from the miltary, pilots are trained for proceduralised flying, largely in simulators (they’re human after all and get scared when things don’t go to plan) from day 1 so their basic airmanship is not as good as it was. Great for 99.9% of the time when everything goes right and to procedure, but for those 0.1% of occasions where things go properly pear shaped they haven’t got those basic instinct old school pilots like to boast about. And it’s then when the risk of an accident is real and the quality of the pilot is needed. I’m not sure how the industry can close that skills gap in an economically viable way – we all like our cheap flights at the end of the day. Anyway, I’m about to catch a plane for my 7hr flight back home, so wish me luck!

How have you been allowed to get away with this and not get flamed? You just out did Chewk for being a knob jockey.

Tell you what, tell that to the guy who landed on the Hudson. Or the Sioux City crew.

Graham S – cheers. Guessing the ‘specifically prevents it’ bit is a weakness then, in extreme circs anyway. Explained on the bbc website link. Basically the choice is whether the biggest threat is terrorism or suicide. Nothings perfect.

John, from what I’ve read and perhaps Mike can comment… is that the code can be over ridden if the pilot inside the cockpit is conscious. The code is for if the pilot is incapacitated.

God that youtube video is dreadful.

“I don’t think this is the normal procedure, do you agree?”…

I think they should be getting off their backsides to check the spy hole at that point if they are cautious enough to lock the door for 5 minutes.

John, from what I’ve read and perhaps Mike can comment… is that the code can be over ridden if the pilot inside the cockpit is conscious. The code is for if the pilot is incapacitated

When the code is entered the cockpit occupants have 30 seconds to disallow access and then the door unlocks for 5 seconds.

Cockpit occupants always have control over the door.

Actually, nevermind.

Making up new rules will have no impact, but will satisfy the lawyers.

We need to ask why are pilots becoming stressed/suicidal? The attitude of LoCo airlines towards their pilots as an inconvenient cost, to be squeezed as hard as possible would be a good starting point, IMHO.

Mandating cabin crew on the flight deck whilst pilots go to the loo has other security consequences.

Mandating cabin crew on the flight deck whilst pilots go to the loo has other security consequences.

The Americans do this do they not? Bring back the flight engineer?

Well, lets follow the yanks then!! With this new policy, any wannabe terrorist will get a nice 10 second alert of the door opening when the pilot wants a pee.

Mandating cabin crew on the flight deck whilst pilots go to the loo has other security consequences.

Steward attacks co pilot and locks out captain?

A pilot deliberately destroying a plane for personal (not terrorists) reasons, seems beyond belief.
But was this not also the probable explanation for the plane that disappeared.

Are there any other examples of this happening.

Presumably terrorists are currently too stupid to realise the door is about to open when the captain returns from the loo?

Several, some links to other alleged incidents up there – I’m not sure if any of them have been proven to any reasonable level though.

Problem with low cost airlines is people think it’s simple and why can’t the big airlines match them. Some are parasites on the industry and if we lose the big airlines then civil aviation will be trouble. Some of the low cost operators are becoming more responsible as they have been successful and are investing in brand new aircraft (not buying old 2nd hand ones) but a lot make life harder for everyone else as they try and drive down costs and ultimately it’s the human side that suffers from cost cutting as the aircraft can’t.

Of course there are other things creating stress on the industry but the low cost airlines have been a real shake up. Not all bad though as they have made people, and airlines, realise that sometimes a no frills low cost service is acceptable and it adds more reason to reduce fuel consumption.

Flight engineer is not needed. The use of a flight attendant should be fine but you will want one that is able to defend themselves to some degree against say a rogue pilot.

Mandating cabin crew on the flight deck whilst pilots go to the loo has other security consequences.

Why not put a toilet in the cockpit?

What if it’s a suicidal flight attendant? Have we not just doubled the risk of there being suicidal crew on the flight deck?

Or, errr, two-thirdsded it, including the theoretical other pilot on board? It’s all reducing the risk from 0.0007 to 0.00065 and therefore largely pointless, innit?

“not real code” – damn there goes my cunning plan.

Rene – eventually that may happen on the next gen aircraft. But for now, cost.

Short of removing all human input from flight there will always be someone in a position to do such a thing.
If the pilot merely wanted to commit suicide he could of took up a glider or single engined plane from his local club and crash that.
But to do what he is believed to have done the only reasoning I could put to it short of terrorism would be either him having a problem with his employers or seeking notoriety through his actions.

And if you were going to go postal in a plane would you not want to take out more people by targeting a residential area with the plane.

Trek, you can be assured that since this is the second accident where lack of access into the cockpit has been a factor (the first being the Helios crash) since 9/11 when armoured cockpit doors were introduced the industry will do something about this.

This has been said before, but I don’t think cockpit access was an issue with the Helios incident.

Why not put a toilet in the cockpit?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/31908620

I think some used to. But it’s probably a space/cost thing. The pilots may also want to stretch their legs on a long flight.

If the pilot merely wanted to commit suicide he could of took up a glider or single engined plane from his local club and crash that.

Is that how it’s done? Watson, the case is solved!

but you will want one that is able to defend themselves to some degree against say a rogue pilot.

Making them more capable of overpowering a pilot to take control of the plane?

If the pilot merely wanted to commit suicide he could of took up a glider or single engined plane from his local club and crash that.

Is that how it’s done? Watson, the case is solved!

I had a family member commit suicide, resulting in alcoholism an divorce for other family members.
Threw himself under a lorry, did not feel the need to take any one with him.

The airlines could try looking after their pilots welfare, instead of screwing them At every opportunity. It costs a young pilot £100k to get his licence these days, with many starting salaries below 20k.

Making them more capable of overpowering a pilot to take control of the plane?

nope. Not what I said. Just needs to be of the ability to be able to defend themselves against anyone trying to attack the flight deck (pilot or otherwise) so other ‘help’ can arrive – ie the other pilot alerted by the struggle or passengers as demonstrated in a couple of cases. A few vital seconds can make all the difference and in initial bit of instinctive defence can buy those seconds.

The airlines could try looking after their pilots welfare, instead of screwing them At every opportunity. It costs a young pilot £100k to get his licence these days, with many starting salaries below 20k.

Whilst I have sympathy for the concept, I’m pretty sure the airline did not pressgang anyone into flying their planes for them. There are many – very many – jobs lower than the entry of “airline pilot” on my own personal list of jobs I’d want to do.