Plane crash in the alps

Sure but what’s your point LHS?

Its quite natural for people to pissed a someone who takes other people with him on a suicide mission, and quite hard to understand any justification for it, shirly?

I don’t think we’ll ever know what happened, not 100%, but it currently looks like he murdered 149 people.

I suspect the co-pilot had a grudge or was trying to prove some kind of point.

Are you making a conjecture ? Previously you have said you were not doing this [ ps that is rhetorical]

Mindless speculation is a waste of time and most unwise. That seems to be all this thread is [ apologies to those saying the same thing to the wild speculations being aired here]

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn’t calculated and he didn’t murder 149 people and people are trying to suggest we should have sympathy for him. I disagree.

We do know his relationship with the pilot wasn’t great from the voice recorder. One case of suicide, one of murder and 148 of manslaughter.

Mindless speculation is a waste of time and most unwise.

So is watching TV, but millions still do it….

Well in the middle there was some stuff about practicalities of current cabin doors and other similar incidents and other interesting stuff. I’m hoping if I just ignore the wild speculators demonstrating their empathy we might be able to get back to that.

a significant clue as to what has happened had been found during the search of his house …

on a side note…Apparently the captain tried to break down the door with an axe. An emergency axe is apparently part of the equipment onboard the plane. Anyone else find it worrying that there is an axe stored somewhere on the passenger side of the security door??!

And that the BBC are making this public knowledge?

Anyone else find it worrying that there is an axe stored somewhere on the passenger side of the security door??!

No, they are visible for all to see when you walk on. Certainly used to be. Behind a precise glass or something.

All of the above were concious and calculated decisions over a period of time with the outcome being the death of 149 people unrelated to him.

Conscious and calculated decisions taken by someone whose head was possibly **** up.

No, they are visible for all to see when you walk on. Certainly used to be. Behind a precise glass or something.

Really? So I’m not allowed to take a pair of scissors on a plane but I can readily access an axe?

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn’t calculated

You have evidence that it was then? Have you passed it on to the investigating authorities?
I’m not saying it wasn’t I’m saying I don’t know what happened in his head, and I suspect you don’t either.

I’m saying I don’t know what happened in his head, and I suspect you don’t either.

100% agree. This is worth a read, maybe – Louis Theroux: The people who are not guilty by reason of insanity

Instead, in a very calculated manner he deliberately murdered 149 people

😯 just wow…

It is being reported that the police found a doctors note allowing him to be signed off work, this was ripped up and left at his house. Strikes me this is a “FU I am not being signed off work” kind of response.

So I speculate he was suffering again from stress/depression and he knew that if he went public to his employer he would be taken off flight duties / lose he career (or he was afraid that would be the outcome).

JY based upon the info and opinions released by prosecutor/doctor/police I am now agreeing with those statements, that this doesn’t look like a suicide as such, I have added the “trying to make a statement” and the opinions above.

It is not usual in an investigation for so much info to come out publically so quickly, I think in this case its being done as the info is quite clear

^ wow – what an ignorant point of view that is.

It is not usual in an investigation for so much info to come out publically so quickly, I think in this case its being done as the info is quite clear

I think it’s been done with indecent haste. Still the A320 is in the clear.

I wonder why so much time and money is being spent on an investigation when all that really needs to be done is ask on mountain bike web site.
Facts? Who needs ’em?

This… is brilliant.. 😆

I wonder why so much time and money is being spent on an investigation when all that really needs to be done is ask on mountain bike web site.

I thought the chat forum on this mountain bike website was for people to air their thoughts and opinions on any given non bike based topics.

This thread happens to be about the recent tragic plane crash.
If you want hard facts not speculation may I suggest you look elsewhere.

jambalaya – Member

It is being reported that the police found a doctors note allowing him to be signed off work, this was ripped up and left at his house. Strikes me this is a “FU I am not being signed off work” kind of response.

So I speculate he
Remember this?

jambalaya – Member
..

I personally haven’t speculated at all
Consistency not a concept you’re familiar with?

LHS – Member

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn’t calculated and he didn’t murder 149 people

it’s being very clearly stated, not implied, that we don’t know if it was calculated or pre-meditated, or if he was in his right mind, and that therefore it’s obviously wrong to assume that it was murder.

I speculate jambalaya has indeed been speculating. Allegedly.

Are you trying to insinuate something?

So I’m not allowed to take a pair of scissors on a plane but I can readily access an axe?

Yes, but you’re fingers are not going to look good if you’re planning on doing your nails.

Tom – I’m afraid you are way off wrt the financial side of pilot training these days.

The flying schools have set up a huge training industry, playing on the glamorous side of the job, promising the earth to wannabe pilots, in terms of guaranteed jobs. They set up loans for you with their preferred provider. They train as many as they can, not how many are required, leaving newly qualified pilots desperate for a job, saddled with crippling debts.

The LoCo airlines take advantage of this, and a scam called “pay to fly” has been born. Basically, the pilot pays for the privilege of flying, with the hope of a permanent job at the end. Sadly, the airlines instead dump them off at the end of term, bringing in a newly qualified “free” replacement instead.

The days of building PPL hours, then air taxi, turboprop, regional, charter, then major have gone. Cheap is king.

Add to that the fact that the maximum flying limitations are now seen as a target to be extracted from every “flying unit” you can see why you may have some stressed, fatigued pilots out there.

You can get student loans like the rest of us to get into commercial aviation now, why not go down this route?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2013/05/uk-pilot-trainees-to-get-stude/

I don’t for a second really think that being a bit low paid excuses him.

I’d say that they weren’t at all comparable. I can’t understand the thought processes involved with them.

IF he did kill them, I’m going to take a wild guess and say that they were.

Let’s see how accurate my opinions voiced today turns out to be. As I posted the first day or two I focused on the press conferences, now the opinions come in. Perfectly justifiable. From the Guardian today – note the last sentence;

Dr. Hans-Werner Teichmüller, president of the Deutsche Fliegerarztverband, an association of German doctors who carry out examinations on pilots and flight crew, expressed total shock at the co-pilot’s alleged actions.

“It’s horrible, it’s becoming more and more incomprehensible,” Teichmüller told the Guardian. “It’s utterly irresponsible that he flew even though he had a certificate saying he was not ready to work, and was therefore unfit to fly. Everything he did was highly criminal.”

Indeed it was a conscious pre-meditated decision to go and kill all those people that day. If he wanted to end his own life then he would have done it without the impact to others. No matter what his mental state, it was carefully calculated pre-meditated murder. No hand wringing will change that fact.

“It’s horrible, it’s becoming more and more incomprehensible,” Teichmüller told the Guardian. “It’s utterly irresponsible that the organisation/individual who decided he was not ready to work, and was therefore unfit to fly, didn’t inform his employer”

??

LHS – Member

Indeed it was a conscious pre-meditated decision to go and kill all those people that day. If he wanted to end his own life then he would have done it without the impact to others. No matter what his mental state, it was carefully calculated pre-meditated murder.

And you know this because…

I am due my annual medical next month. If my CAA accredited ME decides I am unfit to fly, he will revoke my medical and inform the CAA. It is up to me as the Pilot License Holder to inform my company. Doctors intentionally sit outside company management structures to stop commercial pressure being put on them.

With mental health issues this seems a large hole.

* I may be unaware of some specific reporting chain for mental health issues.

French Prime Minister Vallis

“Everything points to this act that we are unable to qualify – criminal, mad, suicidal.”

Jean-Marie Le Guen, secretary of state in charge of parliamentary relations

“a crime and no doubt a murder independent of the desire to commit suicide. He dragged 149 people to their deaths with him.”

@scardeypants – yes very interesting statement and as I understand it doctors have a duty of confidentiality although not sure how that applies to such a situation and of course what the law is in Germany

Tom – I’m not suggesting for one minute that debt excuses the actions in this case. I am however postulating that if we don’t act on the myriad of avoidable causes of stress amongst pilots, then new rules mandating cabin crew (the majority of whom quite understandably have no idea how to control planes) on the flight deck are just publicity stunts.

And you know this because…

@northwind – the manner in which he murdered those aboard, by locking the door for 10 mins, by setting the altitude target to 100 feet (the minimum), by ignoring calls to open the door and the pilot trying to break it down. All very calculated and deliberate and not an act of emotion/anger/momentary loss of control.

What Jambalaya said and now on top of all that it happens that he had a medical condition that he knowingly withheld from his employers which would have made him unfit to fly. No real hiding from the facts.

Jamba still doesn’t know what premeditation means. Or rather, he does I think, but he finds it inconvenient.

Hiding a medical condition also doesn’t show premeditation to commit murder; there’s many reasons you might do that.

Northwind, what is the definition of premeditation? He was on his own for the best part of 10 minutes, consiously knowing what the impact of his actions would be. That in my eyes is premeditated.

Pre-meditation means planning something in advance. What you’re talking about is action, not planning, the fact that it took 10 minutes to do it from when he started doesn’t tell you anything about premeditation. It does mean he had the opportunity to stop it, but that’s irrelevant to premeditation.

Simpler way to think about it- where is the “pre” in this as you summarise it? There is no pre, it’s all action. There may come out evidence that this was planned in advance; so far, I’ve heard of none, just people whose reaction to a horrible situation is to insist that it’s even worse.

Northwind, what is the definition of premeditation?

Google says “the action of planning something (especially a crime) beforehand; intent”, which kind of fits in with my understanding of it, and (to state the same point again) has not been suggested in this instance, other than on here. He MAY have been planning this for months – the idea MAY not have occurred until after the captain left the cockpit. I don’t know – you don’t know – we don’t know. And I think we should stop assuming that we do.

Why take 150 people with you? How about to totally destroy the life of the person you’ve broken up with. Whoever that person is I expect right now they wish they were dead. What a way to punish someone and torture them for the rest of their lives.