somehwat missing the point i feel.

It would take you 8 times longer today than it took you then.

Similar flats to the one I bought when I first moved to Edinburgh are on the market for around £100,000. The 5% deposit required by lenders is therefore £5,000.

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000. Putting away 10% (which is not unreasonable if you really do want to get on the property ladder) means you’d have enough for a deposit in under two years.

Doesn’t seem unreasonable. Even less time if there are two of you.

And that’s Edinburgh which is not a cheap place to buy.

I was lucky enough to be on the housing ladder in the 80s. I don’t understand how anyone is supposed to get their first house these days.

Didn’t you get the memo?
We’re not – keeping house prices beyond reach keeps younger people in the clutches of the private rental sector, which suits the ruling elites and middle-aged, middle-class landlord demographics just fine.

(Having said that, we’ve just moved into our first house last week)

And that’s Edinburgh which is not a cheap place to buy.

Yes it is.

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000.

Could you show me your working out please?

I’m in the 40% tax bracket and in a few years will have to file my own tax return. No degree or A levels. Married with 1 child and a mortgage. Very comfortable with savings, ISA and no non mortgage debt.

My colleague is on the exact same pay scale as me, single and rents. He has a degree. He is always asking when pay day is because he’s skint by the end of the month. No savings or investments.

I go on more holidays but he’s got the flash car, nights out and expensive clothes.

Priorities init.

Personally I think a degree doesn’t make you smart but having a Scottish accountant for a father does make you watch the pennies.

Could you show me your working out please?

Combination of Google and knowing what some graduates have started on. Can’t be certain it’s 100% accurate but seems reasonable.

No A levels or degree. Reasonably good wage.

I often wonder if things would of been that much different if I’d have give to university? Probably not.

“People with no formal qualifications are more satisfied with their financial situation on average than people with qualifications

Of course this can be read in many different ways – but an odd snippet to pick from that report

I didn’t go to Uni before work (did a HND at college) though i’m now studying with Open university.
In the 25-34 bracket.
I do see the value in it for some things, as will enable me to change job easier when complete. Though i’ll take a big pay cut to do so! So technically i’d be worse off/financially less happy after Uni – to start anyway.

i would say 28k is the better end of graduate salaries in Edinburgh (or very industry dependent. Computing/engineering – fine, others not so much).

And there are some 100k properties around in Edinburgh, lots i wouldn’t want to live in though!

We moved out and down to Peebles when we bought last year, got much more space for our money.

NZCol – Member
I was buying a car at the weekend. It was fascinating as I sat there basically the desks all around me were people PCPing new Audis, and not cheap ones either. I was the odd man out not taking finance but I overheard one of them saying that basically as its a small amount monthly they pretend it’s just like a night out so can justify that way. That gave me some insight into how some minds work.

Whats wrong with that, its a no brainer at the moment PCP is cheap – if interest rates start suddenly going up, the loan wont its fixed (which isnt the way the news portrays it). At the end of the PCP if interest rates have gone up and the new PCP agreement means its financially unworkable you can just hand the car back, job done.

Perfectly acceptable way of purchasing a new car.

Once that bubbles gone there will be plenty of 2nd hand cars around.

BMW are asking 10%

Cheek.

Could you show me your working out please?
Combination of Google and knowing what some graduates have started on. Can’t be certain it’s 100% accurate but seems reasonable.

So you made it up?
Where did your google fu take you?
You do realise that average graduate job salary and “average salary for graduates” are either very very different things or you statement is at best open to a lot of interpretation

Genuinely curious – do you really think the moral fibre of the population has decreased? Or could availability of cheap money be driving demand?

Both to varying degrees.

John Prescott did a good program trying to get the young and unemployed into work…one girl he was helping sort out her CV etc was asked what she wanted to do?….her responses ranged from: I want to marry a footballer, I wasn’t to be a singer, to simply “i want to be famous”…..Prescott’s face was a picture because I’m sure he’s read about this new type of underclass but put it down to Tory scaremongering etc….he went through the paper with her finding loads of local jobs, one of them was way over the minimum wage and within walking distance…she didn’t want it, why?….it was a cleaning job and apparently “she’s too good to be a cleaner”….i genuinely felt sorry for dear John, I don’t think he’d encountered that attitude before, the girl is probably still unemployed now.

Now go back the my dad’s generation (he’s 70) and if they were asked what they wanted to do the bright ones would say something like engineering, others might say builder, some would come out as plumbers, sparkles, some may even have wanted to join the army
…im sure a few dreamers would still have wanted to be singers (we have that generation to thank for the Stones, Beatles etc) so not all bad but the realism of building a career and subsequently building a business seems lacking these days.

I’m in the 40% tax bracket and in a few years will have to file my own tax return. No degree or A levels. Married with 1 child and a mortgage. Very comfortable with savings, ISA and no non mortgage debt.

My colleague is on the exact same pay scale as me, single and rents. He has a degree. He is always asking when pay day is because he’s skint by the end of the month. No savings or investments.

I go on more holidays but he’s got the flash car, nights out and expensive clothes.

Priorities init.

This too.

Our friends are amazed we’re on a repayment mortgage and not interest only…we explained we wanted it paid off sooner rather than later…the bemusement in their faces was priceless….’but you could’ve got so much more if you’d gone interest only’…yep and been crapping ourselves each night over how we’d pay off the capital when that day came….or glued to the news in the evening praying for no interest rate rises…no way to live in my opinion.
Our friends drive nice cars that they effectively rent whereas ours are bought and paid for, they holiday twice a year (skiing winter and somewhere hot for Summer)..all clamor to get the latest iPhone on release etc and yet wonder why they’re permanently broke while Mr and Mrs Deviant can piss off for the weekend at the drop off a hat’s…lifestyle choices, it’s not rocket science.

So in short, yes I do think there’s been a cultural shift, people want more ‘shiny’ and they’re not prepared to wait or save for it.
Makes me glad I (at least feel like I opted out) of all this bullshit and moved out of the South East in 2015, took a pay cut to do it but live around genuinely nice people who want to help out ifb they can and crime is none existent….weather could be better mind but you can’t have everything.

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000.

Can’t think of any of my London/South East friends or family that managed to get a starting salary like that after uni in the last 15 years.

With all due respect I feel that you are either misinformed or ignorant.

….

My generation are going to be bitten hard by debt. Many of my younger cousins have got themselves into financial trouble, and yes, it’s true that they all have cars on tick, Netflix accounts, Sky Sports packages and obviously the obligatory iPhones.

At the same time they also have silly high rents and low paid jobs despite some of them having been to uni.

I doubt my generation will see those things that Mikesmith alluded to.

Those friends of mine that have got on the property ladder have done so with their parents help.

I’m a self-employed carpenter. I was fortunate enough to have a few really good years before leaving the UK which meant I could stuff an ISA full and stick a load more cash into Investment funds which if left should mean I can retire at 55-60 assuming I can keep my head above water and don’t need to raid it. I was only able to save that money as I was living in my folks’ garden and only paying keep.

The whole system is screwed, imo. I very much doubt that I’ll see nor receive the same treatment from the NHS as they currently do, state pension will be a pittance.

I didn’t go to uni, left school at 16, and don’t need a degree to do my job. But there is no chance someone would even get an interview for my job without a good degree (in science or engineering subject) now.

So all the degree is needed for is competition to get an interview. I can see how people will be disappointed to find that that extra 5+ years of education doesn’t bring any value to their daily working lives.

Alpin Member

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000.

Can’t think of any of my London/South East friends or family that managed to get a starting salary like that after uni in the last 15 years.

With all due respect I feel that you are either misinformed or ignorant [/quote]

To be fair i’ve just found a few grad jobs in edinburgh with salaries in or around that (26k, 27k, 28k) Selex are 26k plus joining bonus.

I’m sure there are also a number of lower paid ones -those that don’t advertise salary probably- but there are graduate jobs at that pay point!

Again average graduate salary and average graduate job salary are very different things

Average starting salary for graduates

Doesn’t everyone have a degree these days? Must be getting close to needing a degree to work in McDonalds.

£28k might be about right for a traditional graduate role, but now they give them out with Cornflakes (and a £50k cheque), there can’t be any salary premium left…..

Doesn’t everyone have a degree these days

Yep, the new thing is to get 2 or more degrees to look better than those with just the one degree.

Those people will be even unhappier against their over ambitious expectations.

Perhaps would have said…..

Got a degree…. No

Am I happy…. No

Ahhhh. Scheiß drauf.

It’s all very well comparing yourself to others and being smug about how you financially manage yourself (Deviant., et al), but for some, especially those who didn’t benefit from the enormous house prices rises of the 2000-2010 (and more so in locations such as the SE) they’re now having to pay 3, 4, 5 times what others did for a house. They have not only higher prices, but also higher rates. They may have a shiny car, but perhaps this is because the alternative is a banger which’re still cost a load to run, and thus prevents them saving up so are happy to PCP instead?

Average engineering graduate starting salary in the SW is ~ £30-£32k. By the time they finish their schemes (larger companies) they’ll be on £40k inside of two years.

Maybe in some larger multi national but many smaller the wages are nowhere near that.

Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets (engineering or otherwise), or the average salary in a “graduate job”? Cos there’s quite a difference these days.

. They have not only higher prices, but also higher rates.

Rates have never been so low, which is partly why house prices are so high….

Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets

I was referring to engineering and back to both the point Daffy made.

Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets

I was referring to engineering and back to both the point Daffy made. [/quote]

I started, as a graduate engineer, on £14,000 in 1992 IIRC, which is about £28,000 now adjusted for inflation. The best graduate schemes back then, e.g. BT/BA, where starting on £20,000, which would be £40,000 now.

Ah yes, that magic wage growth thing… Those jobs probably had pensions then…
Back then there probably wasn’t this discussion either
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41717401

There is strong public support to ban unpaid work experience that lasts more than four weeks, new research suggests.
Three quarters of people surveyed by the Social Mobility Commission backed a change in the law to stop companies from exploiting unpaid interns.
The poll of 5,000 people was published ahead of the second reading of a Lords Bill that seeks to end the practice.
The commission’s chairman, the former Labour MP Alan Milburn, said the issue was a “modern scandal” that must end.
There are an estimated 70,000 unpaid internships a year and in some industries they have become the main route for graduates to get their first job.

Now go back the my dad’s generation (he’s 70) and if they were asked what they wanted to do the bright ones would say something like engineering, others might say builder, some would come out as plumbers, sparkles, some may even have wanted to join the army
…im sure a few dreamers would still have wanted to be singers (we have that generation to thank for the Stones, Beatles etc) so not all bad but the realism of building a career and subsequently building a business seems lacking these days.

That’s in part because, back in the day, you could join a company as a minion, and leave 40 years later having been running the place, on a whopping final salary pension. Where I am you’d be in for a long service award if you’ve done 5 years.

I’ve flitted around massively between industries and roles; local government -> insurance -> finance by the time I was 30, although it’s worked out for me. I’ve got a degree, and it’s been useful insofar as I wouldn’t have got my first role without the degree (it was a pre-requisite, but I didn’t really use it in the role, if that makes sense), and therefore subsequent career moves wouldn’t have happened, although none have really required a degree. Indeed I’d argue outside of medicine, sciences etc how many jobs really require a degree?

It’s very easy to say “our/my parents generation worked so much harder than these feckless millennials who just want to be musicians (WTF?)”, but I do agree that house prices are insane, and whilst the idea that you could live in some shit hole hovel to “get yourself on the ladder” isn’t entirely flawed, it’s not really reasonable, and it sure as hell isn’t what they/our parents (delete for appropriate age group) did as Kenny’s suggesting.

Directly related to that I do also worry about the number of young people with zero financial nous who know nothing but low interest rates, and as such have mortgaged themselves to the hilt because they’re so desperate to buy/to have the house they really want. And therein is the truly terrifying stat within this report, 47% of people would struggle with £100 increase in their monthly rents. That’s mental.

Ah yes, that magic wage growth thing… Those jobs probably had pensions then…

Well I’ve just had a look at the two examples I used (from 1992), to see what they now offer.

BA Graduate program, starting salary £27,500 with pension.

BT Graduate program, £30,500 with pension.

So, not quite kept up with inflation, but still have grown…

I saw a job advert recently for the civil service department I started my career in after university 17yrs ago. job description is almost identical, the grade is lower and the starting salary now is less than I started on then…and no gold plated pension…

So the same job pays less and the pension will be much worse than back then. They are probably good schemes but how many graduates are being hired on those rates and how many are ending up on the unpaid internships etc. Also in 92 that degree would have been a lot cheaper to get hold of.

Jesus that’s shocking. 11% increase minus 15y of inflation. And much higher rents and other living costs to cope with too. Oh, plus 30-50k of debt.

I wonder to what extent there’s a ‘Dunning-Kruger’ effect going on here where those who are less financially literate are happier despite being worse off, simply because they don’t understand that they are worse off or in a bad situation with debt etc.

and inflation doesnt include housing costs

We’ve been talking to our eldest about it, he’s only just started High School, if he wants to go to Uni, he not only has to get the grades, but he has to want to do a course which is relevant to work or ideally be a requirement for it or it’s not worth it and we won’t fund it.

There is some logic there but it is flawed. Very few degrees have zero relevance to work, and those we might initially assume to be so (say Classics, or history of art) probably have very good employment rates into well paid jobs. On the other hand the plenty of seemingly career targeted courses will not result in directly relevant employment (although that may be no bad thing – how many of us pick something at 17 that we will be happy doing for the next 50 yrs, and good courses teach transferable skills).

Which of these would you permit* your child to do?

– Forensic science
– Media studies
– Sports science
– Music
– Geology
– Computer Games Technology

* you do realise he is an adult by then and free to make his own mind up?

So the same job pays less and the pension will be much worse than back then. They are probably good schemes but how many graduates are being hired on those rates and how many are ending up on the unpaid internships etc. Also in 92 that degree would have been a lot cheaper to get hold of.

Partly globalisation / competition, both BT and BA are no longer effective monopolies and have more competition / price pressure…

There is some logic there but it is flawed. Very few degrees have zero relevance to work, and those we might initially assume to be so (say Classics, or history of art) probably have very good employment rates into well paid jobs. On the other hand the plenty of seemingly career targeted courses will not result in directly relevant employment (although that may be no bad thing – how many of us pick something at 17 that we will be happy doing for the next 50 yrs, and good courses teach transferable skills).

Agreed, see my previous point that although my degree has never really been useful in work I wouldn’t have got my first job – and thus my subsequent ones – without ‘a degree’ (could probably have been in zoology frankly).

We put away a lot more than 5% of our incomes, that’s how. Bought a cheap, crappy little flat in a cheap, crappy area and gradually worked our way up. Did without a lot of things now taken as granted, and now we’re getting the benefits.

The point is that if you were starting out again, it would be far, far harder to do the same:

1) Rents are much higher now so it’s much harder to save up for a deposit
2) House prices have gone up by an extraordinary amount. I wouldn’t be able to afford my (modest) house at current market rates, whereas it was quite comfortable when I bought it 12 years ago.
3) Good occupational pensions have all but disappeared, so I would need to save more of my salary, again making it harder to save for a deposit
4) My university tuition was free so I graduated without the £40k+ debt that is now common

In other words, if young people look at that and think “stuff it, I’ll take out some loans and live for today”, well who can blame them?

2) House prices have gone up by an extraordinary amount. I wouldn’t be able to afford my (modest) house at current market rates, whereas it was quite comfortable when I bought it 12 years ago.

Oh and if you pick up your first property in somewhere that is immune from price rises then after years when you come to sell most of what you have paid off is interest and a chunk will be taken off you in fees.

“Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability”

Marcus Aurelius