“It’s BIKING and as such, faster or not, I don’t find it acceptable to have people running.”

Unfortunately for you, races are won on who is the fastest round a given number of laps/in a given time, and are not trackstand competitions in disguise.

The vast majority of time spent in a bike race is, of course, riding. There are, however, occasions, where it is necessary to run: at a bottleneck when reaching the singletrack, or when riders in front are having difficulty on a technical section, etc. You can either ardently stand there, professing your stance how it is a bike race and you should ride and not walk blah blah blah, or not lose places unnecessarily and do the smart thing – which is it to be?

On another note, one thing that the mix of spectating at races such as the Dalby World Cup, watching them on Freecaster and actually having a go at a few myself has taught me is that no matter how slow the pros look and no matter how easy they make it look in real life or how slow their riding seems on Freecaster, and regardless of the extent you can think to yourself ‘they’re not going that fast’ – if you actually try and ride the section yourself, in real life, under the same conditions they are riding it, and then look at how fast they are clearing it, you certainly won’t be thinking that to yourself any more.

Enduros such as last weekend’s Gorrick 12 hour are great in this regard – you’re riding the same course, at the same time, in the same conditions that Elite riders are riding as fast as you can so you know just how difficult/boggy/slow going the soil is but when an Elite rockets past you your jaw simply drops at the speed and power these athletes have. When it rained and things got muddy I remember many people just had difficulty staying on their bikes and were mincing through the mud and them a PedalOn rider rocketed past me riding at a pace I’m pretty sure is faster than I’ve ever seen someone ride in the dry during the daytime rather than when it’s boggy at night.

The point I’m making is that no matter how slow the top riders look due to photographic factors or how easy technical sections look on photographs, you have to always keep in mind that they’re doing it a hell of a lot quicker than you or I ever could.

njee – Get your facts straight before you go looking to justify your name calling.
I didn’t once say XC was beneath me.
I said WC XC courses are too easy.
I didn’t imply there were man made drops on XC courses back when I raced XC at all (there were plenty natural ones tho)
as for riding over another rider during a race, whenever I’ve done this it’s been my decision and I’ll stand by it, you can’t possibly even know whether it was the safest option in the situation or not.

And yes, I do know the difference between Elite Cat and Professional (switch my wording of “professional” to “Elite” if it makes you happier it won’t change my view, top level mtb racers should be able to ride well off-road, it’s a no-brainer! 🙄

as for riding over another rider during a race, whenever I’ve done this it’s been my decision and I’ll stand by it, you can’t possibly even know whether it was the safest option in the situation or not.

Of course it has – I can’t imagine the rider in front decided he wanted you to ride over him and lay down on the trail!

Again, it’s not your point, it’s how you’re making it that I take issue with. I’ve also ridden over people before (and been ridden over), but I’d not boast about it and use it as a threat. I can think of 2 specific instances, both where people crashed in front of me and I had nowhere to go. You implied that you have done it because people were just being slower than you wanted to go. Again, if that doesn’t make you an idiot (if only for the implication, and not correcting me) what does it make you?

Do you think people are encouraged into the sport when quick riders like you are actually threatening them with bodily harm if they don’t get out of your way?

Tom B – Member

I’ve run with the bike at several races this year. Does that mean that GW and Juan don’t like me?

Oh and there’s bloody no way that I’d be going off that drop on my ‘race’ bike! Don’t know you so couldn’t possibly dislike you but how much I’d disapprove of you running depends on the situation and whether you impeded following riders’ progress.

occasions, where it is necessary to run: at a bottleneck when reaching the singletrack, or when riders in front are having difficulty on a technical section

clever course design/taping and field size can help minimise/alleviate these situations.

clever course design/taping and field size can help minimise/alleviate these situations.

And indeed does – to the greatest extent possible. But it is an MTB race, there has to be SOME point at which the fireroad turns into singletrack and then there will inevitably be a bottleneck. They have long start loops on World Cup races but the difference between the top level athletes is so miniscule as they’re all pushing the limits of their performance, that they still enter the singletrack together.

Also, an MTB race is carnage for God’s sake due to its very nature – I do hope you’re not suggesting that ‘clever course design’ can ALWAYS alleviate situations where riders crash and others are directly behind them?

instead of focusing on this one line, “I’d run over anyone that did it to me.”
read back it in context..

stopping to get off and run in the middle of singletrack forcing all those behind to do the same is cheating!, I’d run over anyone that did it to me. run if you want, but pull over and let the riders who can actually ride through.

Should I re-phrase it so you don’t take such issue with my words?.. 🙄 I think stopping and dismounting blocking the course in front of others is idiotic, do if you want but be well aware I probably won’t as I’m not happy with being forced to do the same. 😉

Do you think people are encouraged into the sport when quick riders like you are actually threatening them with bodily harm if they don’t get out of your way?

I don’t compete in any XC type racing. that said I will (and do) politely explain the correct etiquette for new/slower riders to safely stop at DH races for their own good as much as mine.

I suppose I get what you are saying about riders running with the bike. Its sort of makes it a triathlon as opposed to a bike race! Then surely the tracks should be made as if you are running a lot then you will be loosing time? More down hill sections, faster longer straights. Then if you were going to be running you would be loosing time. I suppose its not always possible due to riding conditions and what not though. Also you can’t start making XC a DH light.

I can imagine watching an XC race on TV or live and then seeing lots of 7 stone jockeys whips dismounting and running a mile down the track to be quite boring and not very good for the sport.

Its sort of makes it a triathlon as opposed to a bike race!

You have to remember that they’re running for miniscule amounts of time – perhaps 30 seconds max on the first lap in a 1h 30m race… that rather helps to put it in context, hence I don’t see why some are getting so peeved by it…

Less than 30 seconds I’d say, more like 5.
We shouldn’t be comparing those that get off and run in a full on Xc race to those doing the same in an Enduro or 24 even a DH.
In an XC race the bits that most STWers regard as technical are really obstacles. Remember we are talking old fashioned cross country, the obstacles replace what in the day might have been a fallen tree or a broken fence. The disruption is part of the race hence the importance of being out in front.
That’s why it’s important to recce the course a few times, and why you have to have a good start.
An example. At my local XC circuit you have a long wide run out from the start, it narrows to a climb then at the top it becomes downhill single track. So you have to race your lungs out to be near the front and therefore be able to get down the singletrack. If you can’t cut it you’ll be forced to dab and run down the singletrack. That looks like mincing, but it’s better than stopping and loosing a few places.

I’ve never done downhill, do you seriously catch your minute man? that would make me froth.
At enduros and 12/24s you’ll have alsorts. At Sandwell there was a lady crying on her first lap as the faster riders had scared her to death. You’ll have people happy to turn what’s a one hour lap for you into four hours, but and I don’t mean to be rude if you seriously can’t factor that into your ride you must be dim. Expect the ‘for fun’ riders to slow you down, and expect to be overtaken by the World Champion.

The point was that GW (and you frankly) came on here, being all hard and saying how easy it is and how they should be embarrassed if they can’t ride it

Well I do stand by it. They are professional/world class athletes. Therefore I expect them to well above average anyone on here and frankly although I did admit I would never rode such jump with the saddle up I said I’ll jump it any time with the saddle down. To be fair I should have said “most people I ride with”. And by all means I am very average (last enduro I did I ended up 117 over 270 riders so couldn’t hardly be more average than that) but I don’t think riding over a 1m jump with a non flat landing is something somehow that “difficult”.
Tom B i have no idea if I’ll like you or not. As why you won’t ride this with your mountain bike is beyond me. Mind you IIRC i did had this argument with njee dozen of times. I even offer him shelter and food around the TV to settle that on the race. So far he has always refused.

I’m not sure I’ve ever actually refused to ride the TV – I’d be interested to, as I know a number of riders who have done so and said it’s a good event. My bigger issue is that I don’t like your online persona at all (you rightly say we’ve clashed on this sort of thing many times), and whilst it’s a very generous offer of you to put me up I’m not interested in wasting money and time getting there to spend with time someone I may well not like.

I’ve also said, repeatedly, that I’m not a very good rider technically, I’m sure most of the TV would be well beyond my limited skill repertoir, I’m not really sure why you feel the need to question my skill level – which I’m very frank about.

There’s a chance I’d ride that drop, having looked at it for a while and ‘ummed’ and ‘ahhed’ plenty, but I’d not take it as a given. If I did do it though it would be on my 100mm travel bike with the saddle up, as that’s all I know.

Surely your saying that you’d do it with the saddle down completely misses the point? Or would you stop at the top (angering GW) to lower your saddle, ride it, stop in the landing zone to put it back up and carry on?

Also you can’t start making XC a DH light

funny thing is, in the early days a lot of DH events were simply the descent from lon established XC courses (with maybe a few extra sections. Should XC not test your uphill/DH/technical/singletrack skills AND fitness?

You have to remember that they’re running for miniscule amounts of time

whether it’s a few seconds or more if they are holding up riders perfectly capable of riding a section every second means a bigger gap to the leading riders.

In an XC race the bits that most STWers regard as technical are really obstacles. Remember we are talking old fashioned cross country, the obstacles replace what in the day might have been a fallen tree or a broken fence. The disruption is part of the race hence the importance of being out in front.

any XC race I’ve ever done has been 100 rideable. Sure you’re not thinking of Cyclocross?
a well designed XC race track designed with lots of line choice that needs practice and learning nevermind just a recce to do well on is exactly what I’m on about, isn’t it time XC evolved a little? (afterall riding and bikes have)

DH it’s usually 30s man (except for Elite) and no you rarely catch your 30s man unless he’s had problems, the start times are seeded you see? and if you do catch him, he’ll 99% of the time know you’re coming (they’ll hear Marshall’s whistles or the faster rider coming) and pull over somewhere safe to let you pass.. if they don’t you are entitled to a re-run! DH racing has far better etiquette than XC racing and is friendlier, standing at the side of the track betwen sectioning/pushing and chatting about the track/lines etc. on practice day probably helps.

way to miss the point (on so many levels) njee 😐
I have lowered my saddle at the top of a climb in an XC race without selfishly impeding anyone’s progress but my own, I’m sure juan’s clever enough not to hold anyone up while lowering his too. 🙄

What’s the TV?
For what it’s worth I’d never do a 1 metre jump or drop, I’d be ****ed if there was one on the circuit. I think 1/2 metre would be my limit on my old race hardtail. One of the problems was that my saddle height and stem length was always maxed for pedaling efficiency. I once bunny hopped a falen tree mid race, never managed it again though.
That said I have broken my fair share of bones through XC jey’ing.

DH racing has far better etiquette than XC racing and is friendlier, standing at the side of the track betwen sectioning/pushing and chatting about the track/lines etc. on practice day probably helps.

You get that in XC too if you pre-ride the day before, the top guys will often give advice on lines and what not.

The comment about ettiquette isn’t really valid as DH is primarily a race against the clock, not the other riders. The start of an XC race can be very ‘elbows out’ but it’s a byproduct of the style of race, it’s nothing to do with ettiquette, that just seems a little daft to derive such a conclusion.

XC has evolved plenty, races are now shorter and generally more technical for a start.

you impeded following riders’ progress.

The point of running techy bits is it can be quicker than riding it for some people

isn’t it time XC evolved a little? (afterall riding and bikes have)

I think it is/has. I find it harder these days (unless it’s bone dry)
I’m guessing you find it hard to fit your skils into XC racing, I’m the same, but from the other side of the fence.
You can’t get upset with it, to a degree you have to accept it for what it is. But remember it’s not all racing around a field edge anymore. Sadly you sound like a rider that’s out of his time.
Things move on. When I was in my teens 20s and 30s all we has was road track and TT.

That said I have broken my fair share of bones through XC jey’ing.

So has GW, just not his own.

What’s the TV?

The Trans Vesubienne – a famously technical multi-day stage race in France, which Juan has down as the epitome of what XC racing should be.

I have lowered my saddle at the top of a climb in an XC race without selfishly impeding anyone’s progress but my own

With all due respect, you’ve presumably not raced XC at any reasonable level then – do that once a lap on a 4 lap race and you hand away a minute, which is rather a lot of time! Sure you have also missed the point if you’re saying you’d not ride it with your saddle up?

Another thing to remember, XC will and should always favour the fitest/fastest riders. It is getting more technical, but it will have to stop short of becoming freeride.
And you have to respect those riders that got into XC when it was as it is now i.e like me….old and straight from the road, didn’t even have a BMX or mountainbike in my youth.

So has GW, just not his own

If GW is a four foot nothing very angry female XC racer who floored me with her frame at a bottleneck, then yes we’ve met.

Edric 64 – Member

you impeded following riders’ progress.

The point of running techy bits is it can be quicker than riding it for some people

I believe you should have black grade obstacles with chicken runs with a few seconds penalty – and that anyone running a section must stand for a few seconds in a penalty box to ensure its slower than riding.

Make them put the bikes on their heads and spin around on the spot 10 times maybe

18 – 30s Catagory.

Whereby, disorientated, they ride straight back up the descent 😉

There are, however, occasions, where it is necessary to run: at a bottleneck when reaching the singletrack

Hmm.. so here’s a question.. Last time I did Margam there was a massive bottleneck at the oak tree sharp left hander, and blokes were pulling up well behind me, shouldering their bikes and trampling way around through the undergrowth to barge in in front of everyone. Is that really fair?

Oh and for those people commenting on the first page, it’s actually much easier than you think to ride bigger stuff on a XC race whippet machine. They are a lot lighter, more direct and easier to handle so that makes it easier – you just have to nail the landings properly, nice and smoothly 🙂 The only thing that’s a struggle on my 80mm XC bike is fast rocky bits. As for the saddle – just get your weight back! 🙂

GW to clarify….you’re saying that you have climbed off your bike at the top of a climb and dropped your saddle in a xc race?

If so, did you raise it at the start of the said climb on the next lap? Over 4 laps that’d mean that you had to stop at least 8 times….20 seconds per times gives you over 2 minutes of time lost-in my last race that would have cost me 3 places.

Nick did you ride all of the A lines at Dalby this year?

The comment about ettiquette isn’t really valid as DH is primarily a race against the clock, not the other riders.

here we go again with you missing the point with your constant need for “Validity” 🙄
etiquette = letting the faster rider through both in practice and during race runs my point was really as simple as that so surely doesn’t require any further validation?
there can be 200 riders (of vastly differing skill/speed) on a mile(ish) long 2-5min track for upto 8 hours of practice at a DH race BTW.

If so, did you raise it at the start of the said climb on the next lap? Over 4 laps that’d mean that you had to stop at least 8 times….20 seconds per times gives you over 2 minutes of time lost-in my last race that would have cost me 3 places.

I lowered it once (completely slammed) at the highest point on the course, I then passed 13 riders (most of whom had passed me on the climb, I rode the next climb with it still slammed and raised it while walking upto the next fireroad, a couple of riders then passed me on the next climb (make of that what you will).

shouldering their bikes and trampling way around through the undergrowth to barge in in front of everyone. Is that really fair?

Quite normal for lap one on some courses. Never raced where it’s happened more than once.

Oh and for those people commenting on the first page, it’s actually much easier than you think to ride bigger stuff on a XC race whippet machine. They are a lot lighter, more direct and easier to handle so that makes it easier – you just have to nail the landings properly, nice and smoothly The only thing that’s a struggle on my 80mm XC bike is fast rocky bits. As for the saddle – just get your weight back

I want the XC race bike he is having 🙂

All my XC race bikes have nowhere near as good technically as any trail bike I’ve had. And I never get the good line in a race, or rarely. I just take what’s going. Nail the landings and smoothly! words that I’ve never used in my experience of XC racing.

Hang on… you said that DH riders exhibit better etiquette because they let slower riders past. You said:

and if you do catch him, he’ll 99% of the time know you’re coming (they’ll hear Marshall’s whistles or the faster rider coming) and pull over somewhere safe to let you pass.. if they don’t you are entitled to a re-run! DH racing has far better etiquette than XC racing

You referred to a race situation, specifically. Now you’re saying in practice. In practice in XC the same happens, if people are in a different category, they get out of the way, if people have a mechanical, then they get out of the way. However, if you just catch someone in your race they shouldn’t have to move out of the way, that’s not poor etiquette by XC racers, it’s part of it.

I quite liked entering races/events/whatever until I read this thread. Now I am scared I am going to get in someone’s way….or my walking/running/mincing will be frowned upon…. 🙄

There’s a bit of difference between DH and XC in the way that they’re raced though-DH is a time trial, whereas XC is a mass start event so dealing with others around you is all part of it.

GW what race was this in the that you were altering seatpost heights? What category was it too?

stumpy01
Just keep entering them and accept that some people will be faster and some slower. If someone holds me up then that’s tough….I’m racing he is racing.
Of course in a perfect world there wouldn’t be anyone else on the course to dare be in front of me going slower.

Edit; Or faster 😳

I’m sure juan’s clever enough not to hold anyone up while lowering his too.

Gravity dropper 😉 well worth the weight penalty in my opinion. The TV is the transvésubienne, a one day race over 85kms, 3000m of ascent and 4000m of descent. I am sure njee is getting confused with the trans provence, a proper enduro race over a week.
Julien absalon said the TV was the hardest one day race he ever raced. It’s getting easier though this year 52% of the riders managed to finish it.

GW what race was this in the that you were altering seatpost heights?

Well i did that at inners for busa circa 2005 😀

juan in all fairness we are talking hour plus cross country racing here.
You are talking about this thing.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFG9bwIbps[/video]

Is that not what happens when ‘normal’ people (students) try and ride difficult stuff with seats up their arses? 😛

I watched a video of the Mega the other night and there were loads of riders walking on the snow at the start because it was quicker than riding.

Is that wrong too?

njee – that was a direct answer to oldgit’s question regarding “minute men”

However, if you just catch someone in your race they shouldn’t have to move out of the way, that’s not poor etiquette by XC racers, it’s part of it

maybe you (and your XC racer friends) should read the rule I posted earlier from the BC rule book

tom – SXC Glentress can’t remember what year