Yeah, bats definitely needs more work, likely to be an under reported issue. I’ve stuck bat detectors on boats and picked them up in the middle of the North Sea, so potentially a problem offshore too.

Sadly bird collisions do happen – I think it’s larger, soaring birds that tend to be particularly susceptible. There were a bunch of white-tailed eagles killed at Smola in Norway too, as well as the many, many casualties in Spain. But these sort of mass casualty events I have no knowledge of occurring in the UK.

Crosshair, there’s about 35 pairs of hen harriers in Wales , which is nearly 10 times the number there are in England.

The Isle of Man has something like 20 pairs, down from about 50 pairs in 2010 or so. Interestingly though they’ve declined from maybe double this number recently. No persecution or wind farms involved it would seem. So land use, or perhaps prey availability could be the issue.

Why do you think there are so few pairs in England compared to Wales, Scotland and the IoM?

The GPS tracks you mentioned before – is there a way that can I see them?

Plenty of habitat and no driven grouse shooting there?

prey fluctuation cycles will have an impact on them as will a bad winter etc. However a major problem is they move around a lot when young. If they head to the wrong part of the UK there is a very good chance they wont come back. Its part of why there is objections to the brood relocation plans.

There is no serious doubt that persecution is having a serious effect on hen harriers in the UK. Its trumpian levels of false news to try and blame wind farms etc instead.

I do like how you throw, erronous, accusations at the RSPB whilst staunchly quoting the GWCT as some sort of unbiased authority. Surely you should be treating them with equal or more scepticism given their far greater dependency on certain lobby groups.

I’ll try and get some links when I get home.

I don’t think the population predictions are accurate for a start. It’s all a bit ‘shoulda woulda coulda’.

I believe illegal persecution in this country does play a part of course- the tendency for Hen Harriers to establish colonies means they can decimate local grouse populations in short order. Yet they wouldn’t be there in the first place without the prey-rich habitat which wouldn’t be there without the money from driven grouse shooting.
Condemnation of the problem without simultaneously recognising the benefits just drives the problem even further underground.

Then there is persecution and wind farms abroad on the migration routes. This could explain the Isle of Man situation.

The wind Turbine problem over here is the shady grey area where nobody is providing any data. If anyone can give me links to mortality figures for UK wind farms I would be fascinated to read them. I did hear that only carcasses at the base of the turbine are counted 😆
So the wingless casualty hopping around 100m downwind wouldn’t be recorded!

And then there is the accuracy of the nest counts. Perhaps estates need to be more proactive in highlighting their breeding successes. I just don’t believe the 3 pairs in England figure. I don’t know where you would start in getting anywhere close to an accurate measure of that- I’d be interested to know the protocol.

And ultimately there’s the stark reality that we are a small outlying fringe of their worldwide range. As our population increases, perhaps we’re just not able to support them any more with or without driven grouse shooting (and far more able to with!).

crosshair – Member

How come every data set I’ve ever seen of Hen Harriers GPS traces has the area around wind farms redacted?

1) evidence?

2) not many windfarms in the peak district (or many of England’s hilly areas)

You don’t believe the population estimates, and state also that you do not know how they are calculated? There are ranges to 95% confidence intervals available.

Your claim that harriers would not be present without grouse moors I do not agree with. See the book “The Hen Harrier” from 1977. The harriers where I work eat meadow pipits and field voles!

Hen harriers do not live in ‘colonies’. They live in pairs during the breeding season, though the Orkney population (from which all UK birds are descended) are polygamous, with the male having several females (but not in the same location).

They also do not migrate – most birds in the UK are permanent residents, though birds can move a long way to find territory.

As a result I am unclear about what you mean by the IoM situation.

With regard collisions in Scotland that I know of – there’s a single wind farm which had 3 collisions in the first 18 months of operation. No record of any collisions anywhere else since. Not to say there hasn’t been any, but I don’t think they’re susceptible to collision compared to some birds. They hunt/forage at low level.

The point about range I would agree with, so its imperative that efforts are made to prevent the range from contracting.

I didn’t say they wouldn’t exist without Grouse 😉 I don’t know any other mechanism to provide enough suitable habitat?

Within the context of a 10,000 acre Grouse Moor, beat I think ‘Colony’ would be a fair description of a male Hen Harrier with six dependant females and attendant broods! To say otherwise is mere semantics.

They flit back and forwards to mainland Europe with impunity. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to describe a Scottish bird over wintering in Portugal as migrating! He’s certainly opened himself up to a few more threats than a Gamekeeper or two 😉

Whilst they hunt at low level, they certainly don’t stay at low level. Even their hunting height can be high enough to be struck by a wind turbine blade. I’ve seen a male soaring over one of the parachute drop zones on Salisbury Plain until he went out of sight with the naked eye.

Another consideration- with Mustelid and Badger populations booming and spreading, I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the one species of bird of prey struggling to recover is the one nesting and roosting on the ground.
The burgeoning Buzzard and Kite population probably doesn’t help either.

Don Scott: My colleague Philip McHaffie and I have purposely monitored an operational wind farm site in County Antrim for three consecutive winters 2005/06, 2006/07 and 2007/08, to assess whether collision mortality is an issue for Hen Harriers. During our routine visits over this period, we have found the remains of 8 Hooded Crows, 6 Ravens and a Common Buzzard that had been killed by the turbines rotor blades. Then on 13th January 2007, we found the remains of an adult male Hen Harrier, below one of the more southerly turbines which had not been present during our last visit on 10th December 2006 – its right wing lay about 4m from the body! This serious incident was reported to conservation organisations here and to several consultants, both here and in Scotland, who specifically monitor wind farms for the companies who want to erect them. Regrettably, and not surprisingly this bad news was not taken on board or acted upon by the conservation organisation here that are responsible for granting planning licences and shortly afterwards a nine turbine extension was built on the same area, without further consultation. One UK consultancy denied that no Hen Harriers in England, Scotland or Wales had ever been killed at a wind farm site – and as Northern Ireland is also part of the UK, they totally dismissed this incident for obvious reasons – the money factor! Wind farms sited in the wrong areas can have a devastating effect on birds of prey and seemingly Corvid species as well, and I totally oppose their erection in any part of Northern Ireland! They are an eyesore to look at and ruin beautiful and scenic areas by their presence.

http://europeanraptors.org/interviews/interview_hen_harrier_northern_ireland_don_scott.html

I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the one species of bird of prey struggling to recover is the one nesting and roosting on the ground.

Various raptors are having issues. For example the “recovery” of Peregrines is actually more a case of Peregrines finding new ranges aka becoming urbanised.
Oddly enough their traditional ranges arent as good for them.
Wonder why that is?

The burgeoning Buzzard and Kite population probably doesn’t help either.

Lucky then that those raptors dont tend to do to well on the grouse moors then isnt it?
Also dont care you want to give some cases where Buzzards and Kites have predated harriers would you?
Buzzard I can see a vague chance but kites?

I find it fascinating though how you continue to try and blame other things that persecution. Its especially good when you try and blame other animals that just happen to be on the list of animals blamed for predating gamebirds.

Please go back and read my posts again dissonance! The very first thing I mentioned was illegal persecution.
I was more pondering why they aren’t thriving elsewhere.

Habitat degredation and lack of prey are probably significant- not a problem on managed Moor of course 😉

At no point did I say harriers don’t get hit by turbines. But I don’t think it causes level of difference we see between the population in England, and the populations elsewhere.

There are more red kites and more buzzards in Scotland than England. So how are there more hen harriers too?

I’ll ask you again – where have the English hen harriers gone?

JNCC report on Hen Harrier – http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/pdf/jncc441.pdf

What’s the ratio of suitable habitat in England to Scotland? Ignoring the pie in the sky dreams of them nesting in amongst dog walkers, ramblers and sheep, how much suitable habitat does that leave?
I’m actually asking as I can’t believe there is even 10% of the well managed heather moorland in England that there is in Scotland?

Why on earth would anyone enjoy shooting a living thing though? Don’t pull the ‘how do you get your meat for dinner’ argument because I’d wager a cabbage would fly quite well too.

Rather than talking about Scotland, lets talk about England, given that’s the subject of the question.

GWCT reckon 80 pairs “sustainably”
https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/672322/hen-harrier-fact-sheet-2017.pdf

RSPB seem to claim enough habitat for 300 pairs in England.

So reality is probably somewhere in between.

Currently four pairs. So where have they all gone?

The very first thing I mentioned was illegal persecution.

Actually it wasnt but heyho.
What you have been doing is providing the normal load of rubbish desperately trying to blame anything but the gamekeepers.
I find it a truly astounding position. If I had a well run shoot I would be absolutely livid at those who kill anything possibly perceived as a threat to those birds they want to kill themselves.

I’m not- I’m wondering why Hen Harriers aren’t thriving away from potential illegal persecution if it were that simple.

I’m not an upland Gamekeeper. I don’t rely on the subtle balance of weather, habitat, predation and Mother Nature to ensure I have a job next season.

I cannot and will not condone illegal behaviour but I similarly won’t be a bigot and think it’s the whole story when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Ehrob- When were they last here? What has the population trend been since the Second World War?

I cannot and will not condone illegal behaviour but I similarly won’t be a bigot and think it’s the whole story when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Assessing constraints acting on hen harriers at national and regional levels and their influences on conservation status
16. The final part of the report considers, in turn, a range of constraints acting on hen harriers: agriculture, grazing, persecution, predation, the prey base, weather/climate change, wind farms, and woodland. Two main constraints were identified: persecution, and, in one Scottish region, prey shortages. Other constraints associated with the availability of nesting/ foraging habitat, and predation pressures may also be locally important.
17. Based on data from the RSPB wildlife crime investigations database, the density of hen harrier persecution incidents (recorded as confirmed and/or probable persecution) in Scotland is directly proportional to the percentage of a NHZ classed as muirburn (a surrogate for the distribution of grouse moor). There was also a significant negative relationship between the density of hen harrier persecution incidents and the proportion of successful nests in an NHZ.
18. In Scotland, there is strong evidence in five NHZs that illegal persecution is causing the failure of a majority of breeding attempts, leading to reduced occupancy and/or fewer successful nests. These are Central Highlands, Cairngorm Massif, Northeast Glens, Western Southern Uplands and Inner Solway, and Border Hills. If this persecution was halted or significantly reduced, more NHZs would achieve a favourable status, as would Scotland as a whole given the size of these populations.
The failure of the North Caithness and Orkney NHZ to achieve a favourable status appears to be related to food limitation during the early breeding season. This has been well researched and appears to be related to differences in prey abundance and the high frequency of polygyny among hen harriers on Orkney (persecution is evidently absent, and there are no foxes). The existence of a relationship between grazing intensity and harrier breeding success suggests that it may be possible to use habitat management to improve harrier productivity. Management measures were instigated in 2002 to encourage farmers to reduce sheep numbers in areas where harriers can forage. It has been suggested that even a relatively small uptake of this scheme by farmers should benefit the harrier population and bring it into a favourable conservation status.
20. There was circumstantial evidence that a shortage of foraging and/or nesting habitat may be a constraint in two NHZ: the Peatlands of Caithness and Sutherland, and the Northern Highlands. However, there is currently insufficient information to confirm the importance of this constraint or to recommend remedial actions.
21. Wales and Northern Ireland appear to be on track to achieve favourable status. However, England is unlikely to achieve this unless illegal persecution is considerably reduced. The productivity estimates of successful pairs in England, and observed changes in the Isle of Man population, suggest that recovery could be rapid.

Evidence points to persecution HTH.

If anyone can give me links to mortality figures for UK wind farms I would be fascinated to read them. I did hear that only carcasses at the base of the turbine are counted

So you hear about how the studies are conducted but these people wont tell you the results?

Meanwhile a wind farm killed 1 bird between 2005 and 2008 in NI?

Not a massive effect is it?

I do have issue with some of the large shoots here where 100’s of birds are taken purely for sport and then buried

I would love to know where that countryside myth came from.

We used to shoot anything between 30 and 850 bird days.
If the price dropped very low as it used to now and again after Christmas we used to give game to charities local hospices etc etc…

I’ve delivered them myself back in the day, most shot game is delivered to game dealers for sale into the larger markets (export).

Some absolute shite is being talked on here, I not saying it NEVER happens but there was a MASSIVE change in culture in the gamekeeping community in the early ninties.
I know I was there!
I was taught the old school ways, pole trapping, illegal poisoning etc etc….Then there was some very high profile arrests, a few old school keepers were sent down and things changed much for the better in all cases.

I can only describe it as how drink driving has evolved in our culture.
That is how those old methods have gone. Yup there is still the odd knob as in all society but the main thrust is for the better.

In regards to old foxy I remember one foggy morning turning up to one of my release pen to spend the next 3 hours picking up dead birds I think the total came to around the 380 mark.
Now imagine this you have a big important work project the whole thing comes to around lets say 2000 A4 sheets of paper (no digital back up) then one morning I walk into your office and rip 380 sheets of the project randomly from you folder and throw it into the best paper shredder on the market.
How you feel that morning when you walk into that office is around the same feeling I got picking up those birds.

If your anti your anti it’s your point of view and I respect that, just as you should respect other people enjoy doing other sporting interests.

sporting interests

This is the crux of it, killing artificially introduced animals for fun is as far from a ‘sporting interest’ as you could get (in my opinion, of course).

Go shoot some clay pigeons you wrong’uns.

Chapters 1-10 oif the shooters book of excuses here.

1) The Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust is a front for the shooting lobby – make no mistake about that. IIRC there is also a songbirds trust.

2) the RSPB do not collude with wind farms to hide mortality stats. Its all well published and researched and there is no significant issue with windfarms and birds in the UK. To suggest the RSPB is bribed to hide massive casualties is absurd. The RSPB have successfully intervened in at least one wind farm project to get it stopped.

3)To suggest that data on hen harriers is redacted around wind farm sites is ludicrous. Evidence for this absurd claim please

4) It is proven that there is no link between raptor deaths on any than a very occasional basis and windfarms. However there is a very strong link between grouse moors and raptor deaths over many dozens of cases.
There is no doubt at all that grouse shoots ( if not all of them) regularly kill protected wildlife. We are talking of hundreds of raptors each year killed by grouse shoots deliberately. The data does not lie. A 10 year survey of tagged birds shows almost all the unexpected casualties and there were many dozens of them happened around grouse moors. considering only a % are tagged then its certain many more were killed. This was no isolated rogues incidents – this is systemic killing which is why some areas have almost no eagles despite being good habitat and others have healthy populations.

The SNP are traditionally scared of upsetting the hunting shooting fishing lobby but they are now considering a licensing scheme – meaning kill raptors loose your license. simple as that.

Crosshair – those like you who work responsibly will have no issues under licensing. The criminals who kill raptors will finally have some decent sanction applied and the noose is tightening. A couple of gamekeepers have been jailed but we need to make their bosses pay.

My google fu has failed – been a long day – I can’t find the report from the scottish government. Google may be your friend ( its not mine tonight) in finding it but it backs up what I have written above

A couple of gamekeepers have been jailed but we need to make their bosses pay.

This entirely but the trouble is that the ‘bosses’ are largely multi zillionaires who take a few £K fine from a back pocket.

esselgruntfuttock

thats the beauty of licensing. Take away the license – no more grouse shooting on that moor. Its the best we can do. That will cost them a lot of pride as well as money. Jail anyone with a direct hand in it

Its inexcusable. A couple of years ago I watched a pair of golden eagles over several days on the Monadliath. The following year both were killed.

Licensing coming and hopefully the end of raptor persecution by grouse shoots

Badllama – I am glad that your experience is that things have changed.

http://www.parliament.scot/S5_Environment/Meeting%20Papers/RSPB_Written_Evidence_20170104.pdf

Link to the rspb evidence – what you need is the government report but I can’t find it

Cross hair. You are wasting your time. STW is jammed full of those who get nasty with no proof of anything and have zero respect for the views of others despite preaching love and care for everything. They are usually spitting venom at those who dare have a view point that has a go at Corbin or supports us leaving the EU.
In this case I dare bet that there is a political bias that objects to field sports or that they just don’t have a clue , basing their ideas on theory or propaganda. I wonder how many of them have seen a fox in a snare as in the pic. None of them I bet.
Never mind, you can’t argue with those who don’t understand.
I wonder if people care that the huge increase in cycling on Dowies in the FoD has reduced the local deer population from a gaurenteed siting of a handful every walk to bugger all?
Another good reason why the chat forumn should go.

Badgers, anyone?

(just a thought)

Badgers, anyone?

(just a thought)

Get with the subject THM!…..oh wait.. 😉

Matt – you couldn’t be more wrong. Morally I have no issue with blood sports so long as the catch is eaten. Deer. Pheasant. grouse etc.

The evidence to the scottish government on Raptor persecution is damming. Dozens of satellite tagged birds “disappearing” over grouse moors- the bodies never to be found with no signal from the tag. Whereas every one that died over other areas they found the tagged body.

The white tailed eagles nest in the Angus glens – the first on the east. The tree – in an unpublicised nest 5 miles from the road was chainsawed down. Complete wall of silence from the estate

This is not isolated incidents. This is dozens of tagged birds over years. If its dozens of tagged birds how many untagged?

You guys need to understand what is happening in some areas and on some estates. Unless your industry gets to grips with this and clamps down on the rogues instead of defending them you will have no industry.

Here you go – have a look at the data.

During 2014-15, 31 offences were recorded by Police Scotland data, and increase from 25 the previous year. Table 15 and Figure 7 show the numbers of recorded crimes for the period 2013-14 to 2014-15.

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/11/7270/5#Raptor_Persecution

Found it

41 of 130 young eagles

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/analyses-of-the-fates-of-satellite-tracked-golden-eagles-in-scotland.pdf

I’m right with TJ on all of this. I also have no problem with shooting for food but I do have a problem with the persecution of natural predators just to maintain a business.

It’s not just the absentee landlords, the Channel Islands Holding Companies or whatever, too distant from Scottish Law, it’s not just the vanished raptors, nor is it just the burning of the heather leading to the increased rainfall run-off, nor is it just the slaughter of mountain hares, and it’s not only about the stink pits, and the long-illegal pole traps.

It’s the whole, indefensible business which is being questioned.

Another good reason why the chat forumn should go.

He says whilst posting on the chat forum. the lack of self awareness is comical.