Pretty sad and shocking I have to say:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-40555282

Sad? Yes. Shocking? Hardly – the Peak District is notorious for persecution of birds of prey by gamekeepers, so I’m not surprised they’ve no qualms about illegally killing badgers either. That said, it’s good that this is getting mainstream media attention.

If you accidentally catch a badger in a snare legitimately set for a fox, you can shoot it if humane release isn’t possible..
Not saying that’s what happened in this case but that is what the law says.

Before the anti-snaring vitriol pours forth- when the League Against Cruel Sports wanted to catch foxes for a radio tracking study with Bristol Uni- that’s how they caught them.
Likewise, the RSPB recently killed three Badgers under license to protect ground nesting birds.

I actually fully support action against illegal behaviour- it needlessly tarnishes the reputation of everyone involved with legal pest control but some of the naive hypocrisy behind the arguments is astonishing! (Not referring to this thread).

https://basc.org.uk/cop/snares-for-fox-control-in-england/

when the League Against Cruel Sports wanted to catch foxes for a radio tracking study with Bristol Uni- that’s how they caught them.

This needs a bit more explanation. Why would they want to track foxes that had been injured by snares?

I think we need to differentiate between live cage traps and snares before we have any more misinterpretations…….

They wanted to monitor foxes for a study and snaring was the simplest and quickest solution to catch them. Foxes captured away from obstructions are perfectly unharmed. As long as they can’t wrap around anything, they just tend to lie down.

The reason snares aren’t a humane solution for the badger cull (though they would undoubtedly be the quickest and cheapest!) is because even on a run free from obstructions, they tend to dig a massive hole like the video. So you can’t guarantee it won’t hang itself.

Once an animal is caught in a ‘catch alive’ trap, you are responsible for its welfare and subject to all the strict legislation that entails.

Not my pic as I’m not brave enough to risk them escaping to fanny about with a camera but my friend took this last year.

One of the great things about snares is they are incredibly selective when used properly.

It’s not hard to imagine how cruel a badly set snare can be but like many things, it’s the application rather than the tool that’s the problem.

The guy who releases the badger in the vid is probably more culpable for H+S crimes than cruelty ones.

That they went public with that pretty poor footage actually just proves how little evidence they had of any illegality occurring.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2016/july/fascinating-fox-work-in-the-avon-valley/

The Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust are using snares to catch foxes for gps tracking in their current Lapwing predation study too.

The “Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust” are a pro-shooting lobby group.

Struggling to take someone’s word on the subject without a pinch of salt when they use the handle “crosshair”… 😕

The scale of this and the use of snares show it to be deliberate illegal persecution. The net is closing on the lawless grouse moor owners and their constant illegal killing of wildlife.

Struggling to take someone’s word on the subject without a pinch of salt when they use the handle “crosshair”…

How very tolerant and open minded of you 🙄
Perhaps someone who does this for a living and is proud of the high standards they set for themselves is exactly who you should be listening to ❓

The GWCT isn’t a lobby group, it’s a well respected research organisation.
Lapwings aren’t even a quarry species….

TJ reaches a predictably emotion based outcry in total contrary to the evidence presented 😆

It’s not hard to imagine how cruel a badly set snare can be but like many things, it’s the application rather than the tool that’s the problem.

Is this what your pic is meant to show? A fox that’s been snared and has panicked and run around in a circle knocking over the crops until it’s exhausted? That’s pretty cruel.

I usually carry wire cutters on me – I’d have no hesitation at all in freeing that fox, and destroying any other snares I found.

Ok, I’m trolling, but only a little, and I reckon crosshair can take it…

That’s arable, why trap (and kill?) that fox?

I’m not a fox expert, but I’m not sure they eat a lot of wheat…

It’s a game shoot with a high regard for wildlife preservation. They also have a sheep flock.

A fox in a snare runs in a few circles trying to escape of course- that’s why it’s important to avoid obstacles and have two swivels. But it’s 100% reliable to be much kinder than almost any other method of taking a fox- assuming your start from the viewpoint that in an over-pressured man made countryside like ours, some form of control is necessary (as the RSPB do for example).

Edit- I’ve never seen a fox exhausted in a snare. Some don’t even lie down- they just sit there like a dog on a lead.

It’s a game shoot with a high regard for wildlife preservation.

That’s a tautology. Game shoots destroy wildlife and environments.

Some don’t even lie down- they just sit there like a dog on a lead.

Because they’re terrified. Do you really believe that a wild animal, if trapped, is quite happy to just sit there waiting for death?

The GWCT isn’t a lobby group, it’s a well respected research organisation.

Pull the other one, it’s got calls for raptor ‘management’ near driven grouse-shoot areas on it.

Apparently it will help avoid ‘conflict’, which is its convenient term for keepers illegally killing endangered raptors, and it’s fine to have a artificial scarcity of these on upland grouse-shooting areas.

For an unbiased research group, an awful lot of their conclusions appear to favour the interests of one particular industry.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/position-statements/

As for the badger issue, why do they feel the need to wear masks if they are legally humanely despatching them?

EDIT: As an aside, MTBers have their part to play in helping estates stay within the law on this issue. We are one of the biggest groups using tracks which criss cross shooting estates. If you see a dead raptor, a pole trap, take pictures, record the location and report it to the RSPB or the group in the OP.

Ben- we are a rented shoot. The farm we rent ground from is an intensive dairy with some arable.
I spend hours and hours in meetings pleading for odd corners of weeds, brambles and hedgerows to be left intact for the benefit of game and wildlife.
Modern intensive farming is not compatible with wildlife preservation. Thankfully game shooting is. Gamekeepers do the same job an RSPB warden does with the difference being it’s financially self supporting.

If you happen across a fox in a snare- you will see exactly what I describe but I assure you it’s true. A fox is clever- simple operant conditioning teaches it pretty quickly that the best course of action is not moving.

Same as foxes caught in cage traps. If your logic was true, they would dig at the mesh until they bled. They don’t- the lay there, often curled up asleep.

MTBers have their part to play in helping estates stay within the law on this issue. We are one of the biggest groups using tracks which criss cross shooting estates. If you see a dead raptor, a pole trap, take pictures, record the location and report it to the RSPB or the group in the OP

That’s a very interesting point – although if I’m correct (based on other threads on this forum) some of the local MTB advocacy groups are in discussion with this very landowner about increasing MTB access, which might present a conflict of interest …

The farm we rent ground from is an intensive dairy with some arable.

So not chickens or somewhere where there might be a need to actually control foxes? Instead you’re introducing game, which people shoot for the pleasure of killing something, and to protect the game you kill foxes which are just doing what foxes do.

Modern intensive farming is not compatible with wildlife preservation. Thankfully game shooting is.

No. At best it is compatible with preservation of some wildlife.
There is also the question about what impact all those pheasants (in particular) being released has on the native environment.

It should go without saying. Willful cruelty or illegal persecution has no part in the modern world. Take photos and ring 101 (not some animal rights extremist group).

With regards to the masks- I only watched it on my phone but they looked like beanies rather than balaclava’s?

A face veil is standard issue for a wild-bird / upland Gamekeeper. The human face and hands are the biggest giveaway when you’re sat up for a Crow or a Fox.

No. At best it is compatible with preservation of some wildlife.
There is also the question about what impact all those pheasants (in particular) being released has on the native environment.

*some* being a lot of corvids, badgers and very little else!

The GWCT have researched that point and issue guidelines for stocking densities. Seeing as they are supplementary fed for their entire lives, the positive boost they bring in the form of tons of prey for Raptors more than outweighs any ecological downsides.
And the food put out for pheasants helps cover the gap left in the countryside by sterile stubble and winter crops.

That’s a very interesting point – although if I’m correct (based on other threads on this forum) some of the local MTB advocacy groups are in discussion with this very landowner about increasing MTB access, which might present a conflict of interest …

If anything, a keeper or landowner with dubious ‘management’ strategies would prefer public access to be along predictable channels. TBH if they had something to hide, they would have ample opportunity to do it away from permissive ROWs. CROW Act has helped in this regard, eg:

http://wwwtest.rspb.org.uk/about-the-rspb/about-us/media-centre/releases/420082-outrage-as-three-pole-traps-found-set-on-north-yorkshire-grouse-moor-

These were placed in the back of beyond but found by a random bogtrotting walker.

onGamekeepers do the same job an RSPB warden does

Really? Can’t say I have ever seen a RSPB warden persecute raptors by poison, trapping or shooting.

Lol! No, they ring a contractor and get them to do the dirty work for them
Lots of part time keepers make good money doing predator control for the RSPB- sadly, they have to sign gagging orders!

As I say- I don’t condone illegal activity so have no need to rise to the crux of your post.

they would have ample opportunity to do it away from permissive ROWs. CROW Act has helped in this regard

True, much of the land in under discussion here is subject to regular temporary closure (with the exception of PRoW)

http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/762741/Derwent-Hallam-2017.pdf

crosshair – Member

How very tolerant and open minded of you

It was a joke.

Perhaps someone who does this for a living and is proud of the high standards they set for themselves is exactly who you should be listening to

Perhaps, but as I don’t trust people with no sense of humour I thought I’d investigate your sources.

CraigW was bang on the money. 🙂

*some* being a lot of corvids, badgers and very little else!

badgers? I hope you have made a mistake there.
Also by very little else you mean weasels, stoats, pine martins and so on? Plus all the mountain hares killed in Scotland.
Then there are the accidental catches.
Then we get into the illegal killings of raptors. Its amazing how unreliable satellite tags are in the UK isnt it? Same models work fine elsewhere but soon as they get near shooting territory they mysteriously malfunction.

The GWCT have researched that point and issue guidelines for stocking densities.

Actually even they state there is more research needed. Also do you really think if they found the safe limit was way, way lower than what would make a profitable shoot the evidence wouldnt be massaged somewhat?

Dissonance- that post was in response to the wildlife that would flourish on a dairy-prairie with no shoot- Badgers, Corvids and cows!!

Do you mean like the tagged Hen harriers that consistently turn back up despite ‘certainly’ being destroyed?

Perhaps they should get an independent survey done on a few wind farms- you may turn up the radio trackers you are looking for 😉 (Notice how they leave blank spaces around wind farms when showing so called Harrier traces!)

The investment in thinning, coppicing and other otherwise neglected habitat management outweighs any marginal impact of pheasant release sites in my experience.

I lifted my wire on the first two pens this week after four weeks- once the grass grows back you wouldn’t know they had been there.

The biggest destroyer of native ground flora on our estate is bloody Muntjac!

Here’s an example of how things work on Arkengarthdale Estate…

Poisons cache found on Yorkshire grouse moor – no prosecution

I’ll wager that the gamey in question is the same one I reported to the police for a public order offence when he abused me for no reason other than being on The Moresdale Road with a bike.

that post was in response to the wildlife that would flourish on a dairy-prairie with no shoot

Apologies I didnt get the context you were putting it in.

Do you mean like the tagged Hen harriers that consistently turn back up despite ‘certainly’ being destroyed?

Apart from they dont. Those where the tags fail unexpected dont tend to turn up. The, much rarer, cases where a tag looks to be failing are noted as such and in those cases there is a good chance of seeing the bird again.

Perhaps they should get an independent survey done on a few wind farms

Oh dear you are going for the full blown shooters loon fantasies here.
I am always confused by this. I thought any shooters who were actually responsible and cared about wildlife would be wanting to separate themselves from the line em up and shoot em down crowd?

The investment in thinning, coppicing and other otherwise neglected habitat management outweighs any marginal impact of pheasant release sites in my experience.

How do you set up the test sites and do comparisons? Or could there be some human bias creeping in?
Personally I find volunteering to maintain woodlands can help some species although there is always that question whether you are helping some at the expense of others.

We have 1000 acres of woodland and perhaps 30acres given over to pheasant pens. Without the shoot there would have been no financial incentive to start the 8yr regeneration programme I’ve pushed hard for.

Woodlands planted under Woodland Grant schemes were always designed to be regularly thinned. When you don’t, the canopy closes over and you lose the light. Lose the light and you lose the ground cover. Lose that and diversity is gone.

My friend runs a bird of prey rehab centre in Gibraltar and the wind turbines in Spain on the migration routes are devastating the Eagle populations. They have to clear the carcasses away as they stink so much!
There is a cover up going on- the wind farm companies donate heavily to the RSPB to the tune of literally millions of pounds. I wonder why!?!

Agree about the turbines.
And the muntjac.

Any mixy near you crosshair?

The only places I see mixy rabbits these days are managed shooting land.
And had several interesting conversations with landowners which suggest this might not be a coincidence.

Good and bad everywhere, c’est la vie.

I am an ecologist, dealing mainly with ornithology. I work on behalf of wind farm developers, and spend a lot of time liaising with RSPB.

Can you please explain what you mean by a cover up? What you’ve said could bring the work of my colleagues and I into disrepute, hence my keenness to understand.

“Wind turbines in Spain” is a sweeping generalisation. If you stick any obstacle on a migration route for birds without thought you will cause problems. Our planning system operates to a higher degree of stringency. SNH have clear guidance on bird survey programmes required for wind farm EIA.

Wind turbines kill what? 100-300 birds per year each?

How can a charity supposed to be promoting birds keep a straight face when endorsing ANY wind farm?
Especially given the fact they recieve funding from green energy companies?

How come every data set I’ve ever seen of Hen Harriers GPS traces has the area around wind farms redacted?

There’s not much more to it than that sadly. I just get peeved at a few hundred gamekeepers being held responsible for a problem that’s a) debatably not even a net problem at all and b) far less significant than the huge white elephants in the room slashing our migratory birds from the sky?

From speaking to gamekeepers here in Norfolk, they’ve stated the same, that the large windfarms here have effected larger bird populations, not massively but there have been issues, they said that the turbines are of course situated where there is a “clean” wind currents and that these in turn are want large raptors especially tend to use as “highways” putting them in contact with the turbines, the smaller birds don’t tend to use them and tend to be able to avoid them, whereas the larger birds are a bit slower to react.

Wasn’t there a big news story a few years back about Golden Eagle having been killed by turbine in full view of twitchers?

In Defence of many game keepers, many do have a positive effect on ecology, it is part of their role, they have to look after woodland, field boundaries and hedgerows and the game birds need this cover.

I have never had an issue with shooting here, if the birds are consumed, i often eat duck, pheasant and other birds.

I do have issue with some of the large shoots here where 100’s of birds are taken purely for sport and then buried and do have issue with some of the lazy gamekeeping where they have feeders near the roads to make their jobs easier, i don’t know anyone here who has not damaged car avoiding birds or having hit them.

Another big thing is here is that if you look at North Norfolk countryside compared to across in the in Lincs and West Norfolk, field sizes here are small, lots of tree cover and every field has hedge boundaries, we are overrunning with wildlife. Compare it to Lincolnshire and the huge field sizes and intensive agriculture, a lot of this came from historical hunting and game keeping and the fact that the land was divided into these estates.

If you’re referring to hen harriers, there is a huge problem from what I can see. There’s only 4 pairs left in England, and a enough suitable habitat to support 50 times that. There’s about 450 pairs in Scotland. In England, there are far less wind farms compared to Scotland. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that something else is responsible for the decline of this species in England.

You’re just scapegoating wind farms by the sounds of it.

I’m not at all anti landowner/gamekeeper by the way, or pro wind at any cost, I just can’t abide the spouting of lies to substantiate a position.

I don’t think hen harrier numbers have been effected by turbines, from the way it was described to me it was larger raptors than harriers (we have had hen harriers here in winter). I was told that bats are susceptible to, due to pressure changes caused by the turbine.

There have definitely been recorded cases of red kites killed here by turbines, again very small numbers, but clear photographic evidence in the local paper and comments from RSPB on the article.

But i do think the numbers killed are nothing compared to other threats, a lot more are killed by windows..

i am all for wind and solar power, we have huge wind farms off the coast here now and many farms have their own turbines and solar panels. Solar “farms” seem to be on the increase and was proud that Norfolk now produces more renewable electricity then it total electricity consumption.

So why aren’t the Welsh Uplands and the Isle of Man teeming with Hen Harriers then? Plenty of habitat and no driven grouse shooting there?