OK, so I sold a watch to a guy on another forum and he paid via Paypal, I emailed him for the postage address and all was good. I sent the watch Special Delivery to that address, it arrived and someone signed for it.

It transpires the address he gave me was an admin comapny who manages his company registration details, and up until a few months back he had a mail forwarding service (now cancelled). So the admin company therefore returned the parcel back to sender. However the parcel has never arrived back with me, sent over 3 weeks ago.

He has now raised a case on paypal, stating he has never recieved the item, as it wasn’t sent to his paypal postal address. Although this wasn’t the one he sent me (obviosuly I have all the emails to back this up etc). I’ve even talked to him a few times on the phones, helping him out, as hes been chasing the watch over the last few weeks.

Then, POW, he raises a case freezing my account, and now I have a negative balance of -£200. Feel a little pi55ed off as I’ve been nothing but honest with the guy.

If for whatever reason I lost the PP dispute….I know how effed up paypal can be….whats stopping me simply not clearing the negative balance? i.E Reporting my card stolen so it cant be automatically deducted etc?

i.E Reporting my card stolen so it cant be automatically deducted etc

Fraud.

Sounds dodgy to me. You could stop the paypal DD, they’d still come after you I expect.

therefore returned the parcel back to sender.

I’d say you have a claim against them…what evidence have they of this?

Just tell the bank you think your card details may have been compromised

Losing it, then reporting it lost, would not be fraud though.

Paypal disputes are usually mostly about jumping through their hoops, the system’s intentionally hard to follow as it’s easier for them to decide based on who’s the best hoop jumper than on who’s actually right. But this one, I have absolutely no idea.

Posting it to an address other than one registered with PayPal isn’t going to help you.

Posting it to an address other than one registered with PayPal isn’t going to help you.

I know that doesn’t help, but the only thing is when someone sends you money, it doesn’t actually show their registered / certified address on the transaction page. Its a little different if you buy an item on Ebay, the certified postage address is clearly showm but when simply sending funds its different, plus its actually pretty difficult to find it. Thats why I normally email people to ask.

I’m prepared to jump through any number / size of hoop though !

………why should the buyer be out of pocket?

dirtyrider – Member
………why should the buyer be out of pocket?

Because he sent it to the address the buyer asked it to go to

im assuming the buyer didn’t know his mail forwarding had been cancelled, or he would not have requested it be sent there, so why should the buyer be out of pocket?

Because he asked it to be sent there- if he has an issue, he needs to raise that with the mail forwarder, not with the seller who did exactly as requested.

Or so it should be, anyway- but paypal’s not always that straightforward.

im assuming the buyer didn’t know his mail forwarding had been cancelled, or he would not have requested it be sent there, so why should the buyer be out of pocket?

Yes, he cancelled it in September as it was costing him £25 a month for on average 10 letters (His words)

buyer = dick

geezers a retard then, however, being a retard doesn’t mean he should be £200 out of pocket,

maybe the seller should be out of pocket then for not scrolling down the payment page to find the address, surely quicker than emailing and requesting said shipping address

the only payments that do not have a shipping address on the payment confirmation page are gift payments

so why should the buyer be out of pocket?

The seller successfully delivered it the the requested address. What happens there after and who is at fault should not be the op’s issue and is between the buyer and the forwarding company to sort out.

No idea how the OP gets PP to side with him though. I’m assuming the email exchange regarding which address to sent to was via conventional email? That and not sending to verified address makes this tricky for you I’d say which dosn’t seem very fair to me.

Good to know though – in future it’s verified address only for me (strange that this wasn’t a verified address if he had used this set up for this sort of thing before).

So he asked for it to be sent to an address (and you have emails from him stating this), he cancelled the mail forwarding so it wasn’t automatically sent to the address he actually wanted it to. The people at the address he asked you to send it to signed for it, then returned it as he didn’t work there anymore.

Have you told paypal all this?

Surely it’s his fault.

Have you told paypal all this?

Surely it’s his fault.
Paypal insist that you only send to the registered address to qualify for protection – not that you’d get much as a seller.

the only payments that do not have a shipping address on the payment confirmation page are gift payments

Not entirely true, I checked the payment page, I paid the transfer fee so it wasn’t sent as gift and the address is not part of the page detail.

you paid a fee?

as it wasn’t sent to his paypal postal address.

AFAIK this unfortunately disqualifies you from PayPal Seller Protection (regardless of what the buyer asked you to do). Is the watch still insured under Special Delivery if it gets signed for but then is returned to sender?

Have you told paypal all this?

Surely it’s his fault.

Not yet, currently he has only raised a Dispute, so we are basically communicating over the Paypal dispute portal (a little odd as we have talked a few times on the phone). Its only when He or I escalate the dispute to a full Claim where PP get involved and review the case.

After 20 days the dispute is simply closed.

I also have an email from the Admin company saying they received the item, and have returned it back to the sender, so cover there also.

Are they saying they retunred it to you or to him ?

you paid a fee?

Yes…he paid me £230, I recieved £221.98

Are they saying they retunred it to you or to him ?

They are saying the returned it to sender, but once a Special Delivery package has been recieved and signed for, you can use the Return to Sender service under the same Special Delivery conditions. I.E You dont get the insurance / tracking cover etc.

you paid a fee?

you have used Paypal haven’t you- that’s rather how it works 😉

Exactly how did the forwarding company “return to sender”? Tracking number etc.

I also have an email from the Admin company saying they received the item, and have returned it back to the sender, so cover there also.

You need them to claim.

Yes…he paid me £230, I recieved £221.98

address will be on transaction page then, go have a look,

or screen print it for us

See below, now address

And a second one….for me when its a non Ebay item it doesn’t show a Payment address. With this one the Buyer places the address in the comments box, I tried to find a postage address and I cant actually find it “!!

Posting it to an address other than one registered with PayPal isn’t going to help you.

………why should the buyer be out of pocket?

FFS its a worry that some people are let out in public unsupervised.

You have proof that it was delivered to the address which the buyer specified, and whaht a f****g half-wit he is. Now he wants you to pay for his stupidity.

I had a dispute with a seller for the same amount and despite the same kind of absolute proof, paypal ruled against me for spurious reasons. So I prepared a European Small Claim form against Paypal sarl in Luxembourg, which it turns out can be filed in your local court just like a normal small claim, and informed them of this. What do you know, they re-opened the case and ruled in my favour. Stick with it, and do not take no for an answer.

I had a dispute with a seller for the same amount and despite the same kind of absolute proof, paypal ruled against me for spurious reasons. So I prepared a European Small Claim form against Paypal sarl in Luxembourg, which it turns out can be filed in your local court just like a normal small claim, and informed them of this. What do you know, they re-opened the case and ruled in my favour. Stick with it, and do not take no for an answer.

I’ll be noting your contact details sir for future reference!! ;o)

The big question that I can’t see answered here (forgive me if it has been) is “Was the original package signed for at the parcel forward place?”

If it wasn’t signed, and refused back to sender then you have to refund the buyer and claim off of RoyalFail.

If it was signed for and accepted before “being returned” then the parcel forwarding company would have to provide tracking number, otherwise I would assume they have stolen the item which would make it now a criminal case. However your end of the bargain is fulfilled.

To prevent the buyer claiming money, look up Section 75 on money saving expert dot com and educate yourself on how you can get your bank on your side to stop you loosing out.

I hope this helps.

And a second one….for me when its a non Ebay item it doesn’t show a Payment address. With this one the Buyer places the address in the comments box, I tried to find a postage address and I cant actually find it “!!

This was paypal gift so no address as not meant to be in exchange for something I suppose.

How did the admin company know who the sender was ? I regularly send stuff RMSD as its less likely to dissapear. But I don’t put a return address on, and the paperwork at the post office has no record of the sender.
So did you have a return address on the parcel ?

plyphon – Member

The big question that I can’t see answered here (forgive me if it has been) is “Was the original package signed for at the parcel forward place?”

Your big question appears to have been answered in the first paragraph of the first post .

If you didn’t send it to the registered paypal address you aren’t covered by their pretty worthless seller protection.
If you don’t want to swallow that then cancel all of the cards etc on your paypal account and let them send it to the collection agency, when they ring tell them the transaction is in dispute and you aren’t paying anything.

Paypal will then close your account. I don’t condone doing this, I was stupid enough to let someone pick something up after paying by paypal and got stitched up for £450, I did the above as there was no way I was loosing that much.

If a recorded/registered item is returned to sender/refused etc, it will then be processed as standard mail. In the event of no return address it’ll end up at the Royal Mail redirection centre or whatever it’s called, and they will open it to see if there is information inside such as an invoice, letter etc. This service can take weeks

I had an ebay item sent recorded disappear, RM said they found it, then they denied that, then magically it was delivered a few days later.

How did the admin company know who the sender was ?

I’m trying to find this out. So the parcel arrived and it was signed for, so thats where the Special Delivery service ends, they did not reject the parcel and return to sender formally, the received the aprcel and kept for a number of days.

Then, I’m assuming, the admin comapny used the Return Address I had writen on a sticker on the back of the parcel to return it back to me. However they sent it via Second Class, no tracking, no insurance etc.

I also spoke to the PP Claims Customer Service last night, they said I am OK if I can prove the buyer actually sent me a different address to post it to. Great, I say I have all the emails threads to back this up. But apprently PP said they do not take emails into account as evidence on a Disoute / Claim !?1 WTF. So she said I have to try and get this guy to admit he sent me the wrong address on the Paypal Dispute discussion thread thing !? Er, right, he’s really going to do that isn’t he. So I’m pretty much effed if he escalates to a full Claim.

Really annoying.

Sounds like you might have a Small Claim against the admin company. They signed it into their care and then posted out via their choice of cover/insurance. That’s where the liability lays, the rest is just smoke (unfortunately).

But apprently PP said they do not take emails into account as evidence on a Disoute / Claim. So she said I have to try and get this guy to admit he sent me the wrong address on the Paypal Dispute discussion thread thing

100% tosh. Just because some PP minion told you this doesn’t mean it is true. The person you spoke to at PP CS is an untrained CS person so do not assume competence. Email was the mutually agreed/accepted form of communication, and he gave you express instruction of which address by email.
Remember just because someone tells it to you doesn’t necessarily mean they are correct or you have too/they can make you do it.

Sounds like you might have a Small Claim against the admin company

No you don’t. At the point that that package was delivered your relationship with that item ended.

That said – if I was you I would try and sweet talk the admin company, find the person who sent and ask them to send you an email confirming they (a) had muppet as a client at that address, and (b) that they posted that package back to your address, and (c) why they did this. I would tell them you need it for a royal mail claim or something.

Said mupppet may have a claim against admin company, esp. if they charged him (for sending a special delivery parcel by 2nd class post).

Pretty f*****g hard for PP or muppet to claim you have liability when no-one disputes it arrived and was afterwards lost by admin/royal mail AFTER DELIVERY.

Maybe time to get the people with a brain involved………

PayPal’s Office of Executive Escalations
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🙂