Viewing 35 posts - 41 through 75 (of 75 total)
  • Paying for mountain biking
  • binners
    Full Member

    …. and you get to show everyone your XTR-kitted Carbon Nomad outside the cafe 😆

    richmtb
    Full Member

    An omni-Glentress isn’t a bad idea.

    I mean you could easily double – triple the number of trails at Glentress. Add in Blue runs for the families and GFs and extra Gnarr for the warriors

    The FC are never going to do it though.

    1. They have no money
    2. They need to promote all activities not just MTB
    3. Its still a commercial forest

    So you would need to convince a private land owner to build a bike theme park.

    It would need to be located near population centres (So not in Scotland then) and have the right geography (so not in England)

    So where in Wales can we build this trail centre theme park with enough varied trails to charge people a tenner a day or £25 a day with uplifts?

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    I can’t for the life of me understand people who will happily sling the bike in the car and drive for an hour to Gisburn or Lee Quarry when in the same time you could be in the Yorkshire Dales, South Pennines or Peak District

    I have lived and ridden mountain bikes in the Peak District for getting on for 25 years but, good as it is, trail centres offer something that most natural trails can’t deliver. I enjoy the challenge of climbing up to Edale Cross from Hayfield and then bouncing down Jacob’s Ladder, but I don’t find it as much fun as pushing my skills on a good* purpose made trail.

    *there are bad ones out there of course.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    jekkyl
    Full Member

    If they could put a cover over helvelln and provide an uplift that’d be mint, do that someone.

    richmtb
    Full Member

    If they could put a cover over helvelln and provide an uplift that’d be mint, do that someone.

    You are onto something there.

    Get them to build it in Dubai next to the fake Ski centre.

    You could have different climate controlled zones featuring different MTB environments. Dry Californian scrub with bone dry singletrack. Lush Canadian forest with northshore sections. Utah slick rock. Scottish trail centre gravel. You could even feature a natural section that involves gates, stils, a genuine fake muddy field crossing, a short tarmac link and the inevitable argument with a rambler!

    frank4short
    Free Member

    mikewsmith – Member
    Leave inners to the gravity and take the swoopy to GT.

    Mountain biking will work as a business if it’s done right, as above tarantaise valley is awesome and has worked a few things out. Riding is riding and just because you don’t want the partake doesnt mean it wont work.

    To be honest comparing most alpine resorts let alone super resort areas like the Tarentaise to any UK situation is a complete misnomer. In the Tarentaise area there is literally hundreds of millions, if not billions, in uplift infrastructucture which sits idle for 6-8 months of the year. This doesn’t even take into account the real estate and other commercial amenities that also sit idle outside of ski season. This will be similar, if not on as vast a scale, in almost all major ski areas/resorts. Since the day most of these resorts opened they’ve looked at ways to operate the equipment/make a return on their investments throughout the year as opposed to just through the ski season. Up until the advent, or more realistically the boom, of mtbing most of them relied on a small amount of walkers using occasional uplift services and in the rare exceptions like Chamonix which is an Alpine climbing Mecca where climbers also using the infrastructure.

    So with all of that in mind the comparison with the UK is moot. As in most alpine locations the local community/operators are desperate to get extra income outside of ski season. With mtbing it requires minimal additional investment in comparison to what’s all ready been invested to add an extra selling point to the area to bring in mtbers. They also have the advantage of better weather and bigger everything terrain wise.

    I’m not saying there isn’t a case somewhere in the UK for a super trail centre with masses of trails of all abilities, that are permanently maintained, that also has an uplift serice and all the other facilities that people want. I’m just saying comparing it to Alpine resorts is wrong as their situation from a business and infrastructure perspective is entirely different.

    DaveyBoyWonder
    Free Member

    Trail centre snobbery really gets my goat.

    Lee Quarry is great in the exact same way that Hebden Bridge’s trails are great. 15 minutes away from each other, very different and yet both brilliant and both riding bikes.

    As someone has mentioned, a lot of the time I’d rather ride my bike on perfectly groomed man made trails that don’t suffer from the weather which include features that are fun/testing that I wouldn’t find normally whilst riding natural stuff. On the flip side, where I live I can ride out the door and be on what I consider to be some of the best natural riding I’ve experienced but the reality is that this year especially, it’d have been better using a canoe on the trails near me whereas I could chuck the bike in the car and in 30 minutes be at Lee Quarry, 45 minutes to Gisburn and an hour’ish to Dalby, all of which enable me to actually ride my bike almost no matter what the weather is doing without the fear of being sucked into the ground.

    Horses for courses. I’d quite happily pay to ride but then I can see peoples arguments about not wanting to pay when there is so much good, free, accessable riding in the UK (which there is).

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    I’m just saying comparing it to Alpine resorts is wrong as their situation from a business and infrastructure perspective is entirely different.

    I still think the comparison is valid if only to assess how many UK riders are getting their kicks from Alpine resorts when maybe – just maybe – we can offer them something closer to home.

    frank4short
    Free Member

    I still think the comparison is valid if only to assess how many UK riders are getting their kicks from Alpine resorts when maybe – just maybe – we can offer them something closer to home.

    Though how many UK riders do actually go to the alps mtbing every summer? And how much of the attraction is based around the weather, the views, the vert, just telling their other non mtbing mates how hardcore they are for mtbing in the alps? As opposed to just the idea of good facilities closer to home?

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    Good questions frank4short, and the same things that I was pondering when I first started this thread. I reckon the answer is down to opportunity. I’d think twice about driving up to the Lakes* for some natural riding, not quite knowing what the weather was going to do, if I could drive the same distance to a big trail centre with uplifts and expect fun, fast flowing and weather-resistant riding without the mud or the boring slogs.

    *and I LOVE riding in the Lakes

    mattjg
    Free Member

    Trail-centres are free so any pay-to-ride bike park is going to have to be significantly better.

    Even if it is I reckon MTBers are pretty stingy (except when they’re spending on kit).

    I don’t see the economics working out … but if someone thinks I’m wrong I’d be delighted if you can prove it by doing it.

    jekkyl
    Full Member

    richmtb – Member

    If they could put a cover over helvelln and provide an uplift that’d be mint, do that someone.

    You are onto something there.

    Get them to build it in Dubai next to the fake Ski centre.

    You could have different climate controlled zones featuring different MTB environments. Dry Californian scrub with bone dry singletrack. Lush Canadian forest with northshore sections. Utah slick rock. Scottish trail centre gravel. You could even feature a natural section that involves gates, stils, a genuine fake muddy field crossing, a short tarmac link and the inevitable argument with a rambler!

    This is the best idea I’ve ever heard,I want to go there. Couple it with some very cheap Stella Artois, a nice large pool plus accomodation I would never leave.

    Coyote
    Free Member

    Even if it is I reckon MTBers are pretty stingy (except when they’re spending on kit).

    Seems to be a UK thing. Spent a few summer weeks in Canada over the years and there seems to be a slightly different outlook there. Nothing’s for free, whether it’s effort to maintain the trails or cash for tools and materials.

    Pisses me off when I hear folk on here boasting about riding various trail centres whilst managing to avoid paying the parking fees which ultimately go to the folks providing the facilities.

    traildog
    Free Member

    Northwind – Member
    I think it’s pretty simple- if you don’t want to pay, you can avoid it by not riding at any of the places that charge. I can go for a ride in the hills for free any time, but very happy to pay the small amount of money required to go and ride somewhere else.

    Except you can bet the place you’re paying to ride was once free.

    As soon as there is the precident that money can be made that will be it. We built trails near to my home and it’s a labour of love for many. Permission was given and the trails built. If the landowner even thought that they could make a bit of cash by charging that would change everything.

    People who go to places then dodge the parking fee etc really piss me off tbh- it’s a tiny part of the cost of riding.

    What, like riding your bike? You don’t have to use a car to ride a bike to a trail you know.

    I’m surprised people are saying naturals trails are boring! I ride Gisburn, Lee Quarry etc and find them far easier than many of the natural trails I ride. I’m not being a trail centre snob at all and I enjoy them loads.

    I’ve a passion for riding and bringing it to as many people as possible. The thought of charging to ride trails makes my blood boil to be honest. You don’t have to ride on a thousand pound bike, I used to and I know many kids who ride on sub 200quid bikes. Riding is about freedom to me. I think the money should be made around the riding – i.e. bikes, food, parking, accomodation, guiding, up-lifts etc.

    traildog
    Free Member

    The other thing to add is the legalities of riding something dangerous which you’ve paid for. Trail centres have a bit of a nightmare with this as it is and they’re not that difficult and technical, despite what somepeople seem to be suggesting.

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    traildog, I agree. The OP was not about being charged to ride trails specifically, it was about a change in the way mountain biking is approached. I’d like to ride a top end mountain bike down some proper year-round rideable challenging terrain. To do this I’d be happy to rent a bike and pay for uplift, parking, a beer at the end of the day etc. I’d certainly be happier doing that than spending four figure sums on a bike that doesn’t really stretch its legs that often. It doesn’t preclude going out on the rigid steel singlespeed for some “adventure” riding tho’

    Coyote
    Free Member

    I think the money should be made around the riding – i.e. bikes, food, parking, accomodation, guiding, up-lifts etc.

    I don’t think anyone is arguing with this. 🙂

    joao3v16
    Free Member

    riding various trail centres whilst managing to avoid paying the parking fees which ultimately go to the folks providing the facilities

    I suspect if parking charges were re-branded to say “trail-building & maintenance fee” then fewer people would complain … I’m sure there’s a sub-conscious reaction to the words ‘parking fee’ that drives us to avoid it at all cost 😀

    maxtorque
    Full Member

    binners
    …. and you get to show everyone your XTR-kitted Carbon Nomad outside the cafe

    Do keep up, XTR is sooooo last year, it’s gota be XX1 this year…….

    Northwind
    Full Member

    frank4short – Member

    To be honest comparing most alpine resorts let alone super resort areas like the Tarentaise to any UK situation is a complete misnomer. In the Tarentaise area there is literally hundreds of millions, if not billions, in uplift infrastructucture

    I think you’re missing the point I was making- the uplift at Sainte Foy is a minibus with a trailer, bouncing up an unmetalled road/piste. Then you come down trails which while waymarked, mostly (entirely?) aren’t purpose built bike trails. Fantastic riding and no need for expensive infrastructure, in fact everything needed already exists at Glentress apart from the permission and a turning circle. But it’s just not taken advantage of. It’s only in recent years we’ve started adding XC-ish routes to chairlift uplifts, too, and that’s still minimal.

    traildog – Member

    Except you can bet the place you’re paying to ride was once free.

    Yep, but was it the same as it is now?

    thisisnotaspoon – Member

    Have you ridden inners? How many familys would look at the first climb out of the car park which doesn’t level off for a good mile or so, and go home? The only flat enough bit would be to build a car park/road upto where the red route levels out and heads away from the DH runs.

    Not so much. The only steep part is right at the start. After that, you’re onto the flattish pedal past the field, then instead of going up the steppy red climb, you can remain on that path til it joins the fireroad, then ride back across the hill up to the top of Caddon Bank. All family friendly, and actually rather pleasant. (The field beside the first climb isn’t FC land but the owner is amenable to its use (see chairlift plan) so even that initial section could be easily resolved)

    Alternatively, build an uplift 😉 (part of the overall Big Mad Plan includes the addition of more trails including blues)

    Course, as it stands it’d make more sense to add more blue at Glentress but terrain-wise Inners would be absolutely fine for a blue. Just think how low Caddon Bank’s average gradient and it’s obvious innerleithen isn’t too steep.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    I’d think the most common reason for not doing that sort of ‘proper’ riding is that a lot of folks don’t have the time or the knowledge or confidence to plan routes on maps and then navigate their way around them, stopping every time they’re not sure of the way they’re going. At a trail centre you can get on your bike & ride without the worry of getting lost or stopping to read maps.

    Something PMBA is addressing with Tony Lund at Lee Quarry at the moment. http://www.pmba.org.uk/news.htm (give it an hour and I’ll finally have the article up on the news page).

    poly
    Free Member

    I was reading the thread about Lee Quarry and the subject of paying to ride came up. It got me thinking. Much as I love “traditional” mountain biking – OS maps, romps over the moors, getting lost etc – I can see the appeal in large purpose built facilities where you can hire decent bikes, pay for uplifts, have a beer half way up the hillside. It’s served the ski and snowboard industry well for years and – abroad at least – it is working for mountain biking.

    I’m confused. You can already do this at a number of UK “Ski” resorts (well possibly not the beer). On top of which Innerleithen and (until recently) Laggan Wolftracks operate vehicle uplifts. Quite frankly unless the hill is massive or the decent so severe it demands a downhill bike then I doubt you’ll get enough people to bother.

    It could also be cheaper for some of us (like me) who don’t actually get to ride as often as we’d like, making it hard to justify spending thousands on a bike. If I could hire a quality full susser for £50?? a day

    you don’t NEED to spend thousands thats marketing hype getting to you; however you can hire (or demo for a fee!) a respectable full susser at the major MTB “resorts” in Scotland – including Aviemore, Ft William, Glentress etc. I’m sure that the Lakes and other “MTB resorts” in England and Wales provide similar.
    {quote]and have a few weekends away each year in mountain bikes “resorts” I’d be happy.[/quote] Not sure I understand what’s stopping you. In fact there are probably even companies offering to package it all up for you including travel, accom etc.

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    Poly, none of those resorts you mention are much good in the middle of winter, much like the Alps. Well, maybe Glentress, but where’s the uplift? I just don’t think the “resorts” are big enough, but perhaps there is somewhere in the UK that could be…

    EDIT I was referring to the ski resorts being unsuitable in winter for general riding

    joat
    Full Member

    If only that big tent in the Trueman Show was real. That looked big enough to cover the peak district, which I know is better when it’s dry. Some of you won’t be old enough to remember this sadly.

    busydog
    Free Member

    Question from the USA—what would you say is the percentage of your trails in the UK that are trail-center vs bridlepath, multiuse and similar?

    Our trail centers, as such, here in the US are (at least in the western half of the country that I most familiar with), most often, carved out in and around ski areas–some really good, some not so much.

    B.A.Nana
    Free Member

    The private landowner development thing is already being done in Spain. Owner of a hotel/country house, who also owns a mountain side and has a MTB nut son, has developed a whole private bike park. You pay to stay in the manor house/hotel, ride their trails and get regular uplifts to the top of the mountain. Can recall what it’s called tho.

    busydog
    Free Member

    who also owns a mountain side

    Now that must be sweet—your own mountainside to create trails on

    busydog
    Free Member

    A group of local downhill riders have created a bootleg DH trail that starts just a ways from the top of the upper ski-lift here that the Forest Service, surprisingly, has turned a blind eye to for the past 3-4 years—at least until someone gets hurt/killed and decides to sue the Forest Service

    B.A.Nana
    Free Member
    deanfbm
    Free Member

    If i had time to dig MTB trails i would (digging time is for the BMX), if someone else is happy to organise/dig, im all for paying. If i can turn up somewhere that has fast, well surfaced and maintained trails, with proper obstacles, constructed in such a way that they succeed one another, in a manner that attains flow, i’ll pay.

    i live on the edge of the peak district, i’ll happily drive for a few hours to ride a trail with (whispers) corners, that isn’t a wind-battered bog for 11.5 months of the year, that doesn’t require miles of tarmac-linking

    Natural riding to me. Monotonousness drudgery lasting hours where a couple of mediocre descents, gain elevation to superb status, thanks to the relief of them appearing. That is peak district riding for me, i’ve given it a good old go too. It’s nice for the fresh air and views, that’s it.

    Trail centres are awesome in comparison, more than just riding surface/incline, actual real obstacles such as turns, jumps, berms, bumps to get all varieties of awesome on. There are only so many ways you can get awesome on the eroded roman cart tracks of the peak (a little unfair, but some good stuff to be found in the steep tree bits).

    Northwind
    Full Member

    poly – Member

    I’m confused. You can already do this at a number of UK “Ski” resorts (well possibly not the beer). On top of which Innerleithen and (until recently) Laggan Wolftracks operate vehicle uplifts.

    Laggan’s uplift was a bit crap, though- only went up to the top of the blue, which is at a guess about 1/3d of the way up the hill, and the gentlest part to boot. Good for the jump kids though.

    Innerleithen’s is good, but also doesn’t go to the top, and doesn’t connect to the XC stuff. Pretty slow too, because of the tortuous route the road takes. Still, I like it. Elliot does his best to look after the bikes as well, mine have a few cattletruck scars but nothing too greivous. There’s tons of uplift-accessable riding at innerleithen that most capable riders would enjoy, but most folks won’t try it because half of it’s officially downhill and therefore “not for us” and the other half isn’t on any maps.

    I think this is part of the thing… When british riders go to france, we just go and do uplifts, no fuss. But in the UK they think uplifts? That’s for downhill. We don’t do downhill, you need full face helmets and a big bike for downhill. Truth is that a decent trailbike’s just as happy at innerleithen as it is at les arcs, but the holiday mindset doesn’t apply

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    Question from the USA—what would you say is the percentage of your trails in the UK that are trail-center vs bridlepath, multiuse and similar?

    Trail centres are a tiny percentage of the total available (legal) riding, but always increasing. If you add in cheeky riding on footpaths I’d guess that the trail centres barely contribute to the total mileage of trails. Add in the open access in Scotland and the trail centres barely register. That’s not to say there aren’t lots of them, but there’s a lot more “natural” riding.

    gusamc
    Free Member

    “Question from the USA—what would you say is the percentage of your trails in the UK that are trail-center vs bridlepath, multiuse and similar?”

    http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/access/rightsofway/prow/default.aspx

    Can’t really see the issue with paying for custom built trails facilities – I pay for hockey, tennis etc.

    bokonon
    Free Member

    The ski lift area on the Raise in the lakes would be an interesting prospect – already got ski-uplift, but is a bit of a walk from the road to it, could have trails built on it, it’s massive though, and is in a national park, which would make it difficult to start with.

Viewing 35 posts - 41 through 75 (of 75 total)

The topic ‘Paying for mountain biking’ is closed to new replies.