Panorama. E-bikes the battle for our streets.

Is Adrian struggling for work? Panorama doesn’t seem like his wheelhouse TBH, has he been cancelled off the One Show or whatever cultural fluff he typically fronts? Did he send dick-pics to the wrong assistant producer or something?

You’re spouting a lot of bile at someone you don’t seem to know much about. You are Elon Musk and ICMFP

Couldn’t resist it – watched the first 15 mins or so. Was poorly hosted / zero research done / zero attempt to establish facts around legality / full of bias-based comments and clueless opinion. The guy with the e-bike collection did a great job of being a bad rep for e-bike owners, that seemed like a stitch up or he just wasn’t smart enough to think where the whole thing was going. The bit about C2W and “tax free illegal e-bikes!!”and the Telegraph talking head guy’s reaction to the conclusion the programme jumped to on that was where I switched off. Maybe I missed the re-balance later on but I doubt it.

I’m pretty confident they won’t have mentioned all the work the OPSS and Bicycle Associaton of the UK are doing to limit sales of unsafe and illegal moped (over-powered e-bikes), or the fact that the reason there are so many around is a failure to enforce existing legistaltion over the last decade or more.

So, Panorama .. a load of clickbaity bollocks parading as a credible fact-based documentary series?

So, Panorama .. a load of clickbaity bollocks parading as a credible fact-based documentary series?

You know the opinion pieces that Chiles writes in the Guardian?

Panorama has become a TV version of that.

If you aren’t happy about it complain to the BBC. It’s about as easy as posting on here and at least you’ll be ranting to the right person

I wouldn’t know where to start, complaining about that. Can I complain about Chiles’ face?? Wandering the streets looking like someone had shoved a dogshit up his left nostril every time he saw a bike? Lumping the Lime hire bikes in with standard ebikes; the food courier illegal bikes; sur-ron riders running from the cops – as if they are all the same thing? And capable of killing everything in sight?! And that was just 3 mins of what I saw. The whole thing was just indescribably crap.

I wouldn’t know where to start,

You seem to know exactly where to start, you can cut and paste it

Quite glad I decided to go out instead of watching it.

Can I complain about Chiles’ face?? Wandering the streets looking like someone had shoved a dogshit up his left nostril every time he saw a bike?

Thats a really helpful and adult attitude!
If you cant make a reasoned argument resort to abuse.

You know the opinion pieces that Chiles writes in the Guardian?

I don’t, but I read something on road.cc about him writing there that £4k cargo bikes were a class thing. Quality take, Mr C.

My OH was telling me we should cancel our TV license recently and there I was telling her that the BBC was alright.. I wouldn’t flounce based on that one programme but if that’s the level Panorama has got to my argument looks weak.

I’d watch it, but that would involve listening to Adrian Chiles for half an hour and quite frankly I’d rather remove my own kidneys with a teaspoon

I’d rather remove Adrian Chiles kidneys with a teaspoon. A nice, slow, painful death would be a pleasure to inflict on that idiot…

Agree for the total disregard for any laws that Just-Eat/Deliveroo riders have whether they’re on a normal bike or e-bike. Absolute weapons grade bellends in general. And of course that means the local anti-cycling brigade in the local rag are frothing at the mouth because of all these “cyclists” disregarding the law and how they should pay “tax”, have licences, think of the children they’re mowing down, shouldn’t ride 2 abreast, should use the roads instead of the glass/dog shit covered cycle paths etc….

The BBC seems to have given up on any serious news programming completely. Panorama used to be worth watching. A proper reportage programme. Not any more.

Let’s face it, it was never going to be a serious news piece, more an extended version of some bit of fluff they’d have on the One Show, especially with that half-wit hosting it, who seems to possess all the critical faculties of a cricket bat

Agree for the total disregard for any laws that Just-Eat/Deliveroo riders have whether they’re on a normal bike or e-bike. Absolute weapons grade bellends in general.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game?

And of course that means the local anti-cycling brigade in the local rag are frothing at the mouth because of

etc…

They were doing that long before some poor sods tried to earn £30 a day delivering food and they’ll do it whatever. They’re the AWGBs imho.

Thats a really helpful and adult attitude!
If you cant make a reasoned argument resort to abuse.

What??

(That’s me wondering who gave you the job of policing my forum posts, in case you were wondering)

I presume you haven’t seen the programme.

I don’t, but I read something on road.cc about him writing there that £4k cargo bikes were a class thing. Quality take, Mr C.

It’s here if you want to lose a few more brain cells:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/16/3999-for-a-cargo-bike-how-a-new-kind-of-class-politics-arrived-on-britains-streets

Turns out that the height of middle class entitlement is not a £40,000 SUV being driven half a mile to the school gates, it’s actually a £4000 e-cargo bike! Who knew?!

There is no need for reasoned argument when the other side haven’t bothered themselves.

The real subject for that ‘documentary’ should have been an investigation into the food delivery companies and their links to slavery, tax avoidance and migrant exploitation.

If they want another target to go after how about the badly thought out and poorly implemented laws on electrified personal transport or even the complete lack of any joined up cycle infrastructure…but no obviously its easiest to just punch down. I hate the media so much.

maybe “Pedelec” for bikes that are electric assisted, and leave “E-bike” for surrons and such.

Or even ‘assisted’ for electrically assisted bikes (that you still have to pedal) and ‘e-bikes’ for surrons and such. ?

HArdly any effort put in to differentiate between an expensive 500w E-bike , chipped or not , and a 8kw Suron style EMX bike capable of 40mph .

Or the mini crime wave of street robbery and drug dealing that seems to be mainly  yoofs on EMX bikes.

My god that was poor…

Little in the way of facts or actual evidence just lame & poorly conceived opinions.

Only the summary at the end offered anything useful & that was poor.

I

Or even ‘assisted’ for electrically assisted bikes (that you still have to pedal) and ‘e-bikes’ for surrons and such. ?

E-Bike for Surrons

EA-bike for a bike you pedal too……EA = Electrically Assisted…

As with the battle for the name 35-40 years ago between MTB and ATB, I think the ship sailed for having a name that actually makes sense.

If you aren’t happy about it complain to the BBC. It’s about as easy as posting on here and at least you’ll be ranting to the right person

If you really think the state of the BBC is down to not enough letters to the right person I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

I watched the whole programme.  Another example of irresponsible, inaccurate and sensationalist journalism.

There are issues with throttle-controlled machines and derestricted e-bikes.  Once again the problems with these two types of illegal vehicles used irresponsibly and criminally, were conflated with the responsible and legal use of legally compliant e-bikes.  The programme made no consistent differentiation.

A throttle-controlled machine or a derestricted e-bike is an electric moped and the rider should be licensed and insured as such.

One of the issues the police seem to face is the widespread disruption caused by some members of the public and public condemnation, that when the police pursue people using throttle-controlled and derestricted ebikes, they are blamed for riders injuries and deaths.

What was their conclusion? there needs to be control, but there is control, but the actual issue is enforcement of illegal ebikes and crap infrastructure.

The use of casualty statistics were also concerning. It said 189 people were killed or seriously injured by a cycle in 2023.  Sounds a lot but seriously injured just means hospitalisation so could be anything from laceration to a life changing injury.  There were 12 fatalities in between 2019 to 2023. Nearly 2,000 peds were killed by cars, 27,000 seriously injured so people being hit and KSI is a tiny proportion but the panorama failed to contextualise and chose to sensationalise.

Doesn’t really help that the talking head journalist was a telegraph writer.  The same telegraph who have been part of the culture wars on bikes.

I didn’t watch this, largely as it was Chiles and I’d rather stick red hot pins in my eyes than listen to a man whose Guardian column is entirely due to his own talents and not, say, being married to the editor.

It seemed pretty obvious it would be a hatchet job that missed both the potential of e-bikes for decarbonising transport, and that they don’t need more rules if the ones we’ve already got were adequately enforced.

/rant

EA-bike for a bike you pedal too……EA = Electrically Assisted…

Doesnt cover the illegal variants of them though. For cases where it matters eg reporting crimes I would go for

e-bicycle

e-moped

e-motorbike.

With the latter two generally being prefixed with “illegal”.

It said 189 people were killed or seriously injured by a cycle in 2023.

This is probably a Dft or Tfl statistic. It’s important to remember they don’t record the type of tranport that caused an incident, just what was involved. That should really read, 189 people killed or seriously injured in a collision involving a bicycle.

Good point.  complete misuse of statistics then

I still feel that the emphasis on speed rather ignores the fact that a reasonably fit individual on a pushbike can maintain 20mph easily, and with a bit of effort and a following wind/slight downhill can get 30-40mph. I once had to keep feathering my brakes following a car down hill into Lacock, at around 25-30mph. On my singlespeed. I overtook a Fiesta with a bunch of teens in at the bottom of my road, at 35mph according to my speedometer. In the big ring, downhill with a tailwind I got 45mph. Frankly, wearing regular bike gear it was more than a little scary!

Personally, I rather fancy the new Segway Xiber e-bike. With the double battery system it’s good for 110 miles, 0-20 in 2.7 seconds, it can, apparently, be overridden for off-road use to 30mph. 1300lmn headlight. Looks like a riot on some of the byways around here…

If anyone can still be bothered with this. Good article – includes link for Ofcom complainings :

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/deconstructed-the-bbcs-panorama-e-bike-segment-and-its-many-flaws

l haven’t watched, as it’ll just wind me up, but I have noticed that the Bicycle Association have put in a formal complaint about the program to the BBC.

https://bicycleassociation.org.uk/news/press-release/60/60-BA-complains-to-BBC-about-Panorama-e-bike-misrepresentation

I still feel that the emphasis on speed rather ignores the fact that a reasonably fit individual on a pushbike can maintain 20mph easily,

Easily? I don’t think a reasonably fit person on any old pushbike actually could.

And just because you can doesn’t mean that you should.

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/deconstructed-the-bbcs-panorama-e-bike-segment-and-its-many-flaws

^ This is good, as always from Mark Sutton. Edit – link repeat, sorry

I thought the overall lack of clarity on the e-bike Vs illegal or unresistered e-motorbike point was worth a complaint anyway –

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

when the police pursue people using throttle-controlled and derestricted ebikes, they are blamed for riders injuries and deaths

This. It seems nowadays the standard scenario is: parents buy theirs kid an illegal EMX bike, said kid rides it like a dick, gets chased by police because they’re riding an unregistered, uninsured motorbike with a pillion and without a helmet. They then hit some kind of stationary/hard object and die, riots then ensue because the police were chasing a criminal (their job) and no-one questions all the steps that led to what is a very avoidable death.

It’s stupid crap like it’s not illegal to sell them as long as you promise to use them on private land that’s caused the problem.

Just to make it all worse there’s just not enough officers to clamp down on anything.

Good link from PJay up there. I think I’ll use that and add some more about the programme’s shitness (slightly better worded, of course) and send complaints to Ofcom and BBC

Easily? I don’t think a reasonably fit person on any old pushbike actually could.

Maybe for short distance but certainly not for long. If you look at any roadie club and look at their club ride requirements 20mph average generally puts you into the serious bunch and thats with drafting etc.

So no chance the average rider is coming close to that. If you are without serious training then get bleeping training and you will probably be on a pro team by next year.

Aye, saw a helmet-less Surron rider eat shit in Bradford yesterday, promptly nicked by the police who where pursuing him. Ice is a bitch.

I chalked that one up as a win for the common person.

Personally, I rather fancy the new Segway Xiber e-bike. With the double battery system it’s good for 110 miles, 0-20 in 2.7 seconds, it can, apparently, be overridden for off-road use to 30mph. 1300lmn headlight. Looks like a riot on some of the byways around here…

A bit of a tangent, but please bear in mind that a byway is still legally a road, and all the usual rules WRT speed limits, insurance, registration, VED, and safety equipment apply.  ‘[F]or off-road use’ should really read ‘for use on private land’.

I watched the programme yesterday and agree that it was pretty poor. They had a section with Police officers on normal bikes stopping some riders and confiscating illegal ebikes and then trying to chase a rider and losing them. There was an opportunity to ask the rank-and-file coppers what they thought would be necessary to fix the issues but they did not. It seemed the conclusion they wanted viewers to draw was that riders of illegal bikes are pretty much immune from being caught.

The programme wrapped up with Chiles opining that the rules are unclear and nobody understands them. This is pretty much BS – they could have offered some suggestions on how to fix the issues but failed to do so. No mention of stopping the sale of illegal bikes/conversion kits or requiring food delivery companies to have some accountability for the riders actions.

One interesting bit was an interview with a food delivery rider who said that there are increasing numbers of people doing this work and it is becoming harder to earn decent money doing it.

There was no section for positive ideas to be pitched which was a missed opportunity. I think the likes of Just Eat, Deliveroo etc. are of a size where they could offer schemes where riders could lease e-mopeds from them including insurance etc. with GPS tracking. This could be complimented by short rentals – e.g. 4 hours – for less committed riders.

On the flat I used to maintain a steady 10-12mph*, according to whatever gps system I had available, but my average walking speed was 3mph. In the past I’ve kept up with roadies for a reasonable distance. But my point was about bikes being ridden in urban environments, and I’ve had kids on mountain bikes tearing past me when I’ve been sat outside a cafe, on the footpath, and I’d estimate they’re doing easily 10mph, if not more. Never got a nice, sturdy stick handy when you need one…

*When I used to ride down to Bath to pick up the K&A Canal, I’d do it in an hour, or thereabouts, and Bath is 13miles, the first 6miles is flatish, downhill to Batheaston then flatish into Bath.

Maybe for short distance but certainly not for long. If you look at any roadie club and look at their club ride requirements 20mph average generally puts you into the serious bunch and thats with drafting etc.

Yep average Joe Public pootling is not doing 20+ dressed in his daily wear 🙂

The issue I have is that unsurprisingly riding bikes at higher speeds requires more skillz.

The crazy stuff I have seen with older unskilled newbie bikers is the obsession of how fast they can go on an ebike – until they fall off on anything that requires riding skills.

That are usually acquired as you get fitter and faster through riding more.

Yep average Joe Public pootling is not doing 20+ dressed in his daily wear ?

According to the comments on the local FB pages, every cyclist is a contender for the World Track Champs / Tour de France at the speed they’re going!

Schrödinger’s Cyclist. Simultaneously going so slowly that they’re holding up all the traffic for miles around but also hurtling recklessly at well above the speed limit!

There was no section for positive ideas to be pitched which was a missed opportunity. I think the likes of Just Eat, Deliveroo etc. are of a size where they could offer schemes where riders could lease e-mopeds from them including insurance etc. with GPS tracking. This could be complimented by short rentals – e.g. 4 hours – for less committed riders.

I’d be surprised if they want to haemorrhage more money 🙂

Just Eat Takeaway reported a €1.8 billion loss in 2023, an improvement on the €5.7 billion loss it reported the previous year.