Panorama. E-bikes the battle for our streets.

Have we done this? Adrian Chiles just been in R4 discussing this. He started out explaining the difference between legal and illegal ‘moped’ e-bikes which has to be a good thing. Will watch it later

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0026sww/panorama-ebikes-the-battle-for-our-streets

Yet the cover shot on Iplayer is this….

He looks a right menace!

Good to see Adrian Chiles (hopefully) doing some proper journalism rather than comment pieces in the Guardian about whether to have Corn Flakes or Frosties for breakfast.

I am not aware of the kind of conflicts and  problems with e-motorbikes/”e-bikes” here in Germany as is reported in the media and on here for the UK. That could just be that the problems aren’t being amplified by an ant-cycling media. Of course normal e-bikes (and cycling in general) are much more accepted in Germany, often owned by middle class middle aged or older people who use them, and often commute with them in summer, so it is harder for the media to create a them and us conflict.

We all know that the issue is throttle e-motorbikes, and unfortunately genuine e-bikes are then lazily dragged into the same debate, as evidenced by the title of the Panorama programme. I do think the likes of Just East and Deliveroo have a role to play here, as the vast majority of problematic city centre riding is by couriers delivering on their behalf.

Seem to be very few bikes or e-bikes battling for my street this morning. Beavers vs otters seems more likely today.

The programme title is reassuringly lacking in sensationalism.

Hasn’t “The Battle for OUR Streets” already been used on a cars v cyclists programme? Pathetic nonsense

Given that there are some on here who run chipped e bikes there will undoubtedly be the need for a hipocracy filter.
You can ride any bike like a dick, you can drive any car like a dick but I don’t see any discussion about limiting the performance of cars and driving behaviour of car drivers.
Electric cars seem to have a higher accident rate than conventional cars and electric cars and hybrid cars have more collisions with pedestrians than ICE cars.
We need a more general discusion about road safety and road user behaviour.
The way to stop illegal motorcycles is to make it much harder to buy one.

I was in london over the weekend for the first time in a couple of years, food delivery riders were everywhere not pedalling cruising up hills circa 20mph. We drove in to town and the 20mph limits everywhere made me think it would be a great place to commute by bike in, but in the centre amount of, the speed, and the situational awareness of the delivery riders put me right off. a lot of them give zero shits about red lights, including pedestrian crossings.

Nice to see the BBC getting the intellectual big guns on the subject with the sellotaped bawbag himself hosting. I’m sure it’ll be a serious piece of journalism and not just some sensationalist tabloid-esque claptrap.

I’d watch it, but that would involve listening to Adrian Chiles for half an hour and quite frankly I’d rather remove my own kidneys with a teaspoon

As with many of these Panorama programmes, there’s a bit of hope and optimism in the build up to it, later dashed by the amount of camera time given to idiots saying nonsense that’s left unchallenged on the grounds of “presenting both sides of the debate”.

You’ll get a couple of rational active travel type folk, a sort of Chris Boardman-lite local cycling bod but who’ll be presented as a weirdy-beardy oddjob.

And you’ll get a couple of old biddies who were NEARLY KILLED!! by hurtling reckless dangerous unlicenced non-road-tax-paying “e-bikers”, probably delivering drugs under the guise of food delivery while being masked and hooded and having no number plates.

And Chiles will put on his best “earnest journalist” face and the programme will wrap up.

electric cars and hybrid cars have more collisions with pedestrians than ICE cars.

Potentially down to the lack of ICE noise pre-warning said pedestrian to look up from phone before deciding whether it’s safe to cross the road?  I’ve certainly needed to recondition my brain to be more aware due to this.

but in the centre amount of, the speed, and the situational awareness of the delivery riders put me right off.

I commute fairly regularly into central London on the bike.  Regardless of the car packed roads before hitting central areas, the most dangerous part of the journey is the cycle superhighway lanes simply down to the multitude of users with little spacial/situational awareness and regard for other users (and I include in this all manner of ‘cyclists’), not to mention the e-scooters, rickshaws and even the odd pedestrian/runner who thinks they are a footpath.

crazy-legs
Full Member

As with many of these Panorama programmes, there’s a bit of hope and optimism in the build up to it, later dashed by the amount of camera time given to idiots saying nonsense that’s left unchallenged on the grounds of “presenting both sides of the debate”.

You’ll get a couple of rational active travel type folk, a sort of Chris Boardman-lite local cycling bod but who’ll be presented as a weirdy-beardy oddjob.

And you’ll get a couple of old biddies who were NEARLY KILLED!! by hurtling reckless dangerous unlicenced non-road-tax-paying “e-bikers”, probably delivering drugs under the guise of food delivery while being masked and hooded and having no number plates.

And Chiles will put on his best “earnest journalist” face and the programme will wrap up.

Why don’t you watch it? Seeing as you are an open minded chap?

and unfortunately genuine e-bikes are then lazily dragged into the same debate

not helped by some supposedly reputable companies playing fast and loose.  I was very surprised to follow someone on a Go-Cycle that was throttle controlled, even more so that they’d been supplied it like that by a big electric bike shop in London.  (though at least the speed limiter was still in place).

I do think the likes of Just East and Deliveroo have a role to play here, as the vast majority of problematic city centre riding is by couriers delivering on their behalf.

100% – I work in the centre of Leeds and the damn things fly up and down the pedestrianised centre, run red lights, ride on pavements etc.

The general public and the media do seem to struggle with the correct use of the word ‘E-Bike’. I think this is because the terminology used for bicycles is inconsistent with the terminology used for cars. i.e. an electric vehicle (EV) is 100% electric powered, whereas an electric bicycle (E-Bike) is our world is not 100% electric.

Maybe we should start calling our legal E-bikes ‘Plug-in Hybrids’ to be consistent with the rest of the motorised vehicle world and let them use the term E-Bike for anything above the legal definition for an electronically assisted pedal cycle.

It not just ebikes. In most cities there are plenty  people on bikes riding  like complete dicks.

“Freshers week” is very special as you get an influx of wannabe couriers and gormless confused pedestrians standing in the bike lane.

One of the things that Birmingham was considering was banning all bikes from problem areas.

We actually need a considered approach to this issue  not just a series of bike bans.

From what I’ve read, a lot of the illegal bikes used by delivery riders are being used by immigrants without a right to work, purchasing a delivery account from someone else and renting a bike. It sounds like modern day slavery, with Uber, Deliveroo, Just Eat etc.. being the benificiaries.

Why don’t you watch it? Seeing as you are an open minded chap?

I did. It was pretty much exactly as I spelt it out earlier.

Chiles summed up at the end of the programme that he came into this “quite grumpy about e-bikes” (nice to have someone impartial on board, eh?), added that he could see their value and then said that without strong regulation “chaos could be coming our way”. I can only imagine his horror when he learns about cars…

Plenty of pics of speeding Surron riders, phones being snatched by e-bikers, a collision between a pedestrian and a Lime rider (the collision was 100% the fault of the pedestrian for stepping into the cycle lane without so much as a glance) and lots of shots of food delivery riders offset by a statement from the companies that “they take safety seriously”.

At no point did it show a tradesperson on an e-cargo bike, a family doing the school run, any example of “we use an e-bike instead of a car”.

The general public and the media do seem to struggle with the correct use of the word ‘E-Bike’. I think this is because the terminology used for bicycles is inconsistent with the terminology used for cars. i.e. an electric vehicle (EV) is 100% electric powered, whereas an electric bicycle (E-Bike) is our world is not 100% electric.

I’ve thought this too, maybe “Pedelec” for bikes that are electric assisted, and leave “E-bike” for surrons and such.

Read an article today and there have been quite a few deaths and lots of injuries caused by e-scooters being ridden on pavements. I hope the article differentiates between the legal and non-legal stuff. I have issues with ‘food delivery’ riders on my commute home, all ridden by bell ends. Zero road sense. Stopped at traffic lights, just before Christmas, and one decides to ride between me and the curb as I set off, all of two foot between me and the curb. Then there are the sur-ron drugs couriers !

…but I don’t see any discussion about limiting the performance of cars and driving behaviour of car drivers…

Apart from the mandatory fitting (not yet mandatory use) of speed limiting/notification to all new cars, a generally good thing IMO, but I still seem to be getting tailgated every time I dare to use mine and actually drive at 20 in a 20 or 30 in a 30.

I’m generally suspicious of any documentary about road transport where the title includes the word “Battle“, that strongly implies there’s a bias towards playing up conflicts and argumentative twattery, rather than looking at the various competing issues affecting transport in the UK and examining facts (rather than feelings)…

I do think the electrification of personal transport needs a bit more thought and refinement of the rules and regs, despite not being a fan of eebs I don’t actually think they’re much of a problem, the existing rules just need enforcing, the number of adapted BSOs working as a sketchy Deliveroo vehicles and Drug dealers on Surrons are actually already legislated for.

Where I think the main bollock was dropped is over E-Scooters, the “use on private land only” “rental only on the roads” rules were a mistake and instead proper rules allowing private ownership design, performance and classification should have been brought in promptly, the number of dockless E-scooters still cluttering up bits of London and other cities attest to this. E-scooter rental is just a flawed model, allowing people to own and use compact, low speed (~15mph) E-scooters in urban areas makes way more sense.

It’s an older video now but I like this one as an analysis of E-scooter issues:

Read an article today and there have been quite a few deaths and lots of injuries caused by e-scooters being ridden on pavements

It was the front page of the Mail when I was in the newsagents.

Headline: Deaths and injuries from escooters triple in last 3 years

Ignoring: In line with increase in numbers of said scooters.

 I have issues with ‘food delivery’ riders on my commute home

That’s one sector where some sort of registration number might have a positive impact. A “how’s my riding” scheme implemented and funded by the likes of deliveroo & just eat.  The trouble is that the likes of the Mail would see this as proof that ALL cyclists should have registration numbers which is enough to make me put up with the occasional throbber on an illegal ebike.

but in the centre amount of, the speed, and the situational awareness of the delivery riders put me right off. a lot of them give zero shits about red lights, including pedestrian crossings.

I’ve collided with a delivery rider whilst halfway across a Zebra crossing in Soho. Rider was looking at his phone. My foot was unharmed as I was wearing steel toecaps.

That’s one sector where some sort of registration number might have a positive impact. A “how’s my riding” scheme implemented and funded by the likes of deliveroo & just eat.

Another of the benefits for these companies of using freelance workers rather than employees.  Not there problem unless there is a massive reduction in demand

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/chaos-could-be-coming-our-way-adrian-chiles-asks-whether-e-bikes-are-a-new-menace-in

Here you go, a summary to save you wasting an hour watching it.

Yeah, I think that the delivery drivers problem is more a gig economy issue than an ebike issue, create working conditions where they don’t need to do stupid things to try and earn a tuppence, and that could well change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/How_debt_kills

Yeah, I think that the delivery drivers problem is more a gig economy issue than an ebike issue, create working conditions where they don’t need to do stupid things to try and earn a tuppence, and that could well change.

FWIW, the likes of Lime etc charging per minute for riding also prompts stupid behaviour like getting to the destination as quickly as possible to make it cheaper. It could be largely solved pretty quickly by having a “per 10-minute” block of time for example. I know they do a Ride Pass system where you can buy a discounted block of 60, 120 etc minutes to be used in the next 3, 5 days but not sure how much that’s used by customers.

Santander had a better system of £2 per 24hr period then as many sub-30 minute rides as you wanted in that time. Then they changed the pricing structure to a per-ride model and Santander Cycles use dropped through the floor.

They’ve reintroduced it now but I think it’s £3 per 24hr period.

 legal E-bikes ‘Plug-in Hybrids’ to be consistent

H-bikes – electrically assisted pedal bikes

E-bikes – electrically powered two wheeled vehicles

works for me.

Here you go, a summary to save you wasting an hour watching it.

Reads pretty much as expected TBH, I would watch it with my missus later but she’ll just get annoyed at me shouting at Adrians witless mug.

I suppose a better headline would be “Light-entertainer with salad allergy, is not a cheerleader for E-bikes… Shokka!”

Is Adrian struggling for work? Panorama doesn’t seem like his wheelhouse TBH, has he been cancelled off the One Show or whatever cultural fluff he typically fronts? Did he send dick-pics to the wrong assistant producer or something?

One of the things that Birmingham was considering was banning all bikes from problem areas.

And in Birmingham the problem is overwhelmingly Just Eat/Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders. When you have one of them coming the other way on the A38 blue route cycle lane, unlit, all in black, one hand on the bars, looking at their phone with the other, doing what, 20, 25mph? That’s got “catastrophic head-on collision” written all over it.

I hate – hate – the disregard they have for pedestrians in pedestrianised areas.

I hate – hate – the disregard they have for pedestrians in pedestrianised areas.

Willing to bet that many of those pedestrians get home and go “what shall we have for tea tonight…?” and then get on the app and order something from Just Eat and get arsey when it doesn’t arrive in 15 minutes…

That whole delivery model needs to be looked at – it basically not only incentivises but pretty much demands that the rider goes like a bat out of hell to get the food to you. It used to be the little pizza delivery mopeds that were renowned for being driven like they were stolen, now there’s a whole new mode of vehicle for the time-pressured gig-economy worker to ride!

the problem is overwhelmingly Just Eat/Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders.

Would be good if if those apps paid the riders enough to afford an actual e-bike not a lash-up ebay kit taped onto an old Carrera.

I hate – hate – the disregard they have for pedestrians in pedestrianised areas.

I guess they no longer GAF, they have delivering and making ends meet to worry about and making ends meet would be hard if JE etc is your gig.

Lordy what a mess that was.. so there are no laws governing what’s legal and what’s not and all us ebikers are going round killing old people and running over kids. Government! Please help us all!

Not watched this episode of panorama.

My concern is the sheer volume of cars parked next to the pavement.

Round my part of town, there’s so many shop owners who park adjacent to their premises.

The city already has an adequate public transport infrastructure.

You’d think they were commuting from Timbuktoo.

Then they say that their vans need to be close to their premises to assist unloading of goods.

Surely the wholesalers can assist with their computerised inventory and send out a wagon to their customers as when BBC stocks run low?

Better to reserve these strips of road for the trams.

Then you could quickly travel all the way from leith to Glasgow airport.

I tend to ignore all this nonsense as we all know the real killer on the roads are not bikes it is vehicles.  There’s been like 3/4 deaths of pedestrians in Edinburgh the past month or so all from vehicles. Until that is sorted then all this focus on bike stuff is just pissing in the wind to please Daily Mail readers.

Read an article today and there have been quite a few deaths and lots of injuries caused by e-scooters being ridden on pavements.

Watched a bloke on one on the footpath opposite the cafe I was sitting in the other afternoon, going at least as fast as someone on a regular bike, as he got to the end of the path, where the path turns 90° to the right, and there’s an exit to a small area of car parking spaces, he just blithely carried straight on, anyone pushing a pushchair, or driving out of the car park would have been hit by a halfwit sitting on what must be close to 1/4 ton of unlicensed vehicle.
I ‘see’ a lot of the delivery bikes around as well, I say ‘see’, because few have lights of any sort, the riders gear always seems to be black, apart from the big orange or green box on their back, totally invisible to anyone in front of them.

Oddly, I’ve seen very few of the oiks on Sur-Ron bikes of late – I don’t follow local media, but I wonder if there’s been a major purge by local plod. I live in hope.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgxdxqw5g9o

In a prevention of future deaths report sent to the Department for Transport in late December, and published on Monday, Mr Hartley said: “During the course of the inquest the evidence revealed matters giving rise to concern.

“In my opinion, there is a risk that future deaths could occur unless action is taken.

“In the circumstances it is my statutory duty to report to you. The matters of concern are as follows: there is no requirement that riders of electric scooters wear helmets.

“Due to the expectation of their use on the road, and their vulnerability, there is a risk of death to riders of electric scooters and bicycles not wearing protective headwear who are involved in collisions, even at lower speeds.”

It’ll be registration plates and mandatory helmets on push bikes before you know it, once Reform get in.