A few years ago, likely about 8 or 9, I posted on here asking for advice on solving my post-ride malaise.

After longer rides, for about 1 hr afterwards I felt amazing, usual post ride buzz. But no matter what I did, after that, and for about 2-3hrs, I felt absolutely terrible – bad headaches, massive lethargy, just really terrible feeling.

Bearing in mind that I am also overweight, which no doubt complicates the issue, this has continued with no amount of pre-during-post ride fuelling/watering adjustment making any difference.

However, since I stopped carrying a backpack with 3L bladder, just a 500-750ml bottle, for 2-3hr rides, I feel fine.

Got the fat bike 3 yrs ago, and I just chuck a bottle in the frame bag, and on the Stumpy, wanting to take advantage of the SWAT stuff and no need for bag, just a water bottle in the frame.

So, have been over hydrating all this time?

More likely been getting too hot.

Doubtful.

You’d know if you were overhydrating as you’d be stopping to piss every 30 mins.

There was a book out a few years ago (Waterlogged, by Noakes) where the author contended that conventional wisdom re. hydration was totally wrong. No idea whether he’s right or not – and I never did get around to reading the book – but this review basically explains everything and it does seem to make sense. http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlogged-a-dogma-shattering-book.html

You’d know if you were overhydrating as you’d be stopping to piss every 30 mins.

IANAD but doesn’t the body release a hormone when exercising that makes you less likely to need a wee (in the interests of preserving fluid?)

FWIW I did over 6 hours at BPW on Tues in really sweltering heat and got through about 3 litres of water. So 3L for 2-3 hours in average conditions does sound like a bit much.

It’s possibly to load up the kidneys beyond their ability to process excess fluid out of the body.

Water then builds up in the body, disrupting the homeostasis of your blood electrolytes. This can be a double whammy if you’re exercising hard, because at the same time you’re depleting electrolytes via sweat too. You can get into all sorts of bother this way.

If you’re just slamming in plain water back in, you just dilute yourself.

I *might* get through 3L in 2-3 hrs on the hottest day of the year. So maybe.

because at the same time you’re depleting electrolytes via sweat too.

That’s actually one of the “myths” that Noakes disagrees with in the book I mentioned.

He argues the body is great at regulating sodium, etc all by itself so taking on additional (in the form of electrolyte drinks, etc) is unnecessary. The presence of sodium in sweat (he argues) is because there is too much in your diet/body and it’s trying to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

I do occasionally lick my arm whilst sweating when exercising heavily to test this (!) and it isn’t always salty so I think he might be on to something…

Could it be that bladders,tubes mouthpieces etc are harder to keep clean and sterile than a simple bottle and the effect your feeling aren’t to do with water consumption but what contained within it?
I keep my bladder etc in freezer to counter my cleaning/sterilizing laziness .

Hmm I have a 3L bladder, only ever fill it to the 2L mark and it does me for up to 3 hours, I do use hydration tablets and try to have an energy bar after the first half hour as I usually start with a climb.. and from then on half hour before each subsequent climb. Apart ftom a coffee I don’t preload before going out as I feel more lethargic if I do. Always feel fine now, Prior to hydration tablets I’d feel groggy and crappy that night and the next day…

Have read Noakes and medic at long distance events many times a year; as a result I apply his advice to the ultra running community fiercely.
Some thoughts:
3L in 2-3 hours is way too much fluid.
Sudden headache is a bad sign and could be an indication of fluid retention.
Electrolytes are much misunderstood by many in sport. Putting a product in your drink will ALWAYS just dilute you further, as you can’t mix a drink that you can stomach which is saltier than you are.
Drink to thirst and for you, 0.5L in 2 hours might be enough.
Experiment.
The only way to be absolutely sure is blood tests during and after hard exercise; an expensive but not impossible solution.

Maybe better just keep a water bottle handy and follow the instructions your body is giving you.

What is your hydration like pre ride and post ride via piss colours?

What is your hydration like pre ride and post ride via piss colours?

That’s another thing Noakes takes aim at in his book as he says urine concentration is solely down to ADH (Antidiuretic Hormone, mentioned it in an earlier post but couldn’t remember much about it so just looked it up) levels not hydration.

I used to ride with a 3lt bladder. Now I properly hydrate and use a bottle.

Urine colour alone is not a good indicator of hydration.
It’s only really a fair measure when you’re not stressed or not exercising hard…
Over a period of several sedentary hours, it’s a fair indicator, at best.

Just weigh yourself before and after the ride!

1L an hour would be a lot for UK weather.
At the moment I drink about 1L an hour when running or hills on the bike, but that is in 30C 90% humidity.
My record is losing 6kg in 90mins, quite proud of that.

I always have a 3l bladder, it’s hardly ever full though! 🙂 I prefer using a camelbak, so bottles are not mandatory.

But this is interesting. Am I right in thinking the processing of carbohydrate requires water? So if you have carbs in your drink, you will need to drink more?

My record is losing 6kg in 90mins, quite proud of that.

I managed that on an Aeroflot flight from Moscow to Paris!

But this is interesting. Am I right in thinking the processing of carbohydrate requires water? So if you have carbs in your drink, you will need to drink more?

Noakes suggests drinking to thirst only, not drinking how much you think you need. He also recommends taking on 60g of glucose per hour during competition to “improve performance”, which suggests that he’s thought about the interaction between water & carbs, and that he considers that taking on carbs is not essential.

Great series of articles from the splendid “science of sport” geezer(s)

Lean muscle mass will be the greatest bias as to how much fluid an individual needs to stay hydrated. The greater the lean muscle mass for your body weight, the greater the amount of fluid required.

As already mentioned weighing before and after gives a good indication of fluid loss and done over a short amount of time you can start to get an average of your own hydration levels and requirements during and after.

Thanks all, interesting stuff. The links are all informative, and seem to say:
1) drink only when you need, not when you want/feel you should, and that actually it is likely way less is needed than I had been assuming all these years
2) that for me, clearly 1L/h was way way to much
3) That there is a great deal of marketing bumph that personal opinion getting the way of actual science

scareypants – those articles summed things up nicely, and alextemper – what you say suggests that as a fatty, I’ve got a heck of lot fluid reserve to call on anyway! 🙂

This post crosed my mind earlier..

“Over-hydrationexcertion? Is that really what’s been happening”

During a work trip I had a conversation over breakfast about a similar subject with my MDm but about heat rate monitors. I’d noticed my strava logs with HRM data show me ‘peaking’ where I was struggling and my recovery time. He convinced me to keep a closer eye on my rate while riding. I now have a cheap phone in a mount on my bars and can watching my rate. I back of when I hit a too-high level to keep it in the zone (as he advised) and it has really helped a lot.

So is it not about hydration at all? heart rate has not been mentioned at all in this post.

I sweat a lot when riding and for many years I overhydrated in an effort to replace the fluid plus used Zero tabs. I always used to finish a long ride with a headache which I naturally put down to dehydration so drank even more. Because of this sometimes my headaches would last 2-3 days.

Then I discovered Tim Noakes’ book “Waterlogged” and dispensed with the Zero tabs and only drink to thirst and probably get through about a third of what I used to consume on a ride. I generally finish slightly dehydrated but that is easily fixed just by carrying on drinking to thirst and now no more headaches.

I think the majority of people who exercise still overhydrate massively buying in to the “must keep hydrated or die” mantra which is total BS. If anything it’s the other way round.

There seems to be a myth that if you let yourself get dehydrated then it is too late and disaster will befall you. However, it’s actually the other way round. If you overhydrate it takes a hell of a lot of time for your bodily fluids to equalise yet if you are dehydrated you can overcome that quite quickly just by drinking sensibly. I’m not sure how these things get started – it’s probably the energy drinks/water companies that start the nonsense and everyone buys into the BS.

hmm yes.. I suppose. I always used to use just apple+blackcurrant squash in my bottle, long before I switched to a camelbak (due to frame design) and didn’t feel good. I tried hydration tablets (SIS ones) and no word of a lie the first time I drank after exerting myself it was like the world came back into focus. i’ve never felt that out of focus since. that epiphany like moment is what converted me.

so there’s some truth there a) don’t over hydrate noakes style, as that’ll dilute you, BUT b) hydration tablets with electroltytes – don’t cause the “dilution” problem, so you can drink and be happy.

find what works for you, your scenario and your physiology?

I’ve tried all sorts of potions over the years, eventually settled on Lucozade sport, usually bought in packs of 4 when on offer at about £1.75, Road riding for 2-3 hours I don’t get through a bottle anything over that I take 2 bike water bottles.

A mate I rode with used to drink huge amounts of fluid on MTB rides, he had all kinds of bizarre potions in there, at the top of a climb or after a hard poke he would guzzle like a nutter on his camelbak in the belief it would give him the energy he needed to crack on. Eventually he got wise to the fact that he just wasn’t riding enough and that he actually thought that’s what the crap he was buying would do, make him fitter and faster.

He’s now averaging about 500 miles a month. 90% on road with the odd trail centre thrown in. I did Dalby with him last week and he had bottle in his camelbak. It’s become a standing joke now when some ones hanging out, quick grab Taffs camelbak.

Chortle chortle….

I recall a number of threads over the years where the parsimonious drinking habits of old roadies were derided by the camelback generation who insisted that 3 litres was only just enough for a couple of hours pony trekking by bike…

Nice to see you all catching up.

I used to carry a camelback now I never do. Decent saddle bag and two bottle mounts. Im 6ft 4 and about 16 stone. 2hr ride use 1 800ml bottle if I’m out for 3hrs I’ll add a 2nd 500ml bottle. Usually have a small protein drink in the car for the way home. I always carried two much water and drank to much probably. The fitter you get the better your water management will be. I never use lucozade just water with half a High 5 zero tablet in the small bottle if its a hottish day. Mind I did stop today during my 30 miler and eat some ripe blackberries bloody lovely!

By strange coincidence, I had this email yesterday from training peaks.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/the-dangers-of-hyponatremia?utm_source=tpnu&utm_medium=email&utm_content=non_accounts&utm_campaign=20160827_weekly_newsletter

“he would guzzle like a nutter on his camelbak in the belief it would give him the energy he needed to crack on”_yup I did that too. Plus with a mouth tuve so close to your mouth it’s easy to fall into a habit. I think more the issue is salt, electrodes etc loss not water per SE?

No Hora, you need to read the articles properly to understand the issues.

Essentially it’s about letting your own homeostatic physiological mechanisms do what a few million years of evolution have refined them to do.

Hora has hit the nail on the head to an extent. Hyponatremia isn’t directly related to drinking too much, it is the effect of sweating out salt over a lot over a long period of intense exercise (often 12hr+ for ironman) and not replacing it as part of what you are feeding yourself with throughout that effort.

It isn’t all about not drinking too much, dehydration is a genuine danger. I once severely dehydrated myself when I was running around the Brecons for 7 hours with a backpack, it was February and I only took 500ml of water with me but it was a freakishly hot and sunny day. It was really unpleasant, towards the end I was struggling to keep conscious and was falling over about once a minute – I don’t want to ever be in that situation again. Some years later some soldiers died doing a similar activity in the same place.

So I would suggest in summary, make sure you take enough water but don’t force yourself to drink it and if you going to be sweating a lot then think carefully about what you are eating and drinking as you do need to replace lost salts etc.

Twisty, you clearly haven’t read the articles either. It might be an idea to do so before posting.

Your personal example is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The effects of drinking 500ml in 7 hours bears no similarities to drinking 3L in 2 hours.

Dehydration and hyponatremia are both concerns, with very different causes. Both can be bad. Over prolonged exertion you need to find the balance between becoming dehydrated and overhyrdated (with other complications such as hyponatremia)

Ah ok, maybe there is a direct link between drinking too much and Hyponatremia, I still think the rest of what I said was fine though: although doing an ironman type effort without consuming sodium might not result in total sodium depletion, this doesn’t mean that it is a bad idea to consume some.

I’d already given my 2p on the OP BTW, I thought the discussion was branching out a bit hence the 7hr dehydration tale.

I don’t know, everybody always gets so self-righteous when it comes to this topic.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, everyone is different. Don’t let some pseudo-experts on here tell you what your body needs. There’s no shortcut I’m afraid you just have to work it out for yourself.

Thankfully it sounds like the OP already has.

it’s probably the energy drinks/water companies that start the nonsense and everyone buys into the BS.

wasn’t Camelbak’s original advert “Hydrate or die”?

wasn’t Camelbak’s original advert “Hydrate or die”?

Yes but nobody ever read the small-print strap line

“Because you’ve strapped an extra 6 kilos and a short hose to your back you fools!”

They also liked showing pictures of soldiers in Iraq wearing their “MILSPEC” camelbaks on foot patrol, but again that probably wasn’t a particularly fair reflection of the hydration needs of tubby MTBists was it?
Do you really need the same amount of fluid to trundle about some hills in Surrey for two hours as someone wandering around downtown Falluja all day wearing body armour dicing with IEDs?

Camelbaks were never really about hydration, its a lifestyle accessory, it say, “Look at me! I have a rucksack full of liquid and expensive toys to go with my gnarly radness!”[/I]. And they’ve made 20 years of profitable business out of that, fair play to them…

probably wasn’t a particularly fair reflection of the hydration needs of tubby MTBists was it

Oi! I resemble that remark 🙂

Yes, I have found the right hydration strategy for me. but it took bloody 8 years, no-one in that time suggested over-hydration, even the trainers at the gym at work (who were all more like ‘drink man, drink!’) except one hyperfit, slightly-neurotic, salad eating ex-reebok sponsored triathlete colleague – but of course her voice was drowned out by all the others. I did actually email her today and say “sorry, remember that advice you gave me 5 yrs ago? You were right!”

Biggest benefit is that I don’t have to clean colostomy bags camelback bladders anymore and leave them hanging around the house, and with SWAT stuff, no need for backpacks.

Woo, and indeed, Hoo 🙂

Yesterday I did one of the toughest races I’ve ever done (marathon champs), humid conditions, drinking to thirst, and consumed 3 litres in 6 hours.

Yet in 6 hours sat on my arse in the office I would normally consume 2.5 litres of tea.

I suppose my question then is whether you really can overhydrate while riding. You’d have to be drinking ridiculous amounts, no?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, everyone is different

But starting at 3 litres for a couple of hours of gentle exercise and then trying to work back puts you so far out of most peoples range it’s almost comical.

6 hours running in heat? Abit different to guzzling 3lts of water in 2 hours spinning a bike round a trail center. After all a bike is a very efficient mode of transport.

I imagine alot of mtb’ers are on the pop the night before a ride. A terrible combination of under hydration and thickened(?) blood exercising. I.e heart attack zone. Is this a fair comment?