These people are convinced they’re the safest drivers out there because they always drive at 5mph below the posted speed limit. In doing this, they never take their eyes off the speedo, the go from (say) a 40mph to a 30mph by standing the car on it’s nose at the limit change and then gradually, in a series of jerks and swerves and braking, they get it to 25mph again.

I don’t consider myself a perfect driver, but I am somehow able to control my speed without staring at the speedo all the time. If the awesome drivers on here are so awesome that they can make their own rules, how come they can’t keep tabs on their speed?

Cougar
Full Member

Two separate claims here, the clicky says people think they’re above average which isn’t quite the same.

Yup. I have no doubt that I’m an above average driver. Not saying I’m a Driving God, it’s just a criticism of general driving standards, the average is very low.

To be better than average you pretty much just have to drive to could-pass-a-driving-test standard, and pay attention.

I find it incredible that people complain bitterly about driving standards AND IN THE SAME THREAD argue that people should be allowed to drive at whatever speed they feel is appropriate. Can’t you see a flaw in that?

I see a flaw in that no-one’s actually said that.

So what you’re saying is that he was a bad driver and needed to learn to pay attention? Not really anything to do with speed, it’s more about responsibility for your actions.

I’m just sharing an anecdote rather than opining on it. I thought it was curious, was all.

To be better than average you pretty much just have to drive to could-pass-a-driving-test standard, and pay attention.

I’d contest that. The general standard of driving in the UK is actually pretty good and the average isn’t that low. Sure there are some real shockers and a reasonable number of not greats but, if the average standard was as bad as its often made out none of us would be driving around having not been involved in an accident and so on.
It’s like the all cyclists area a menace thing, you remember the shockers, rarely the average never notice the shining examples (because if they stand out it’s because something has gone wrong).

There are literally millions of journeys every day that go by without incident, that simply wouldn’t happen if the average driver really was a liability.

As the sentiment goes – if it’s everyone else, it’s not anyone else.

I don’t consider myself a perfect driver, but I am somehow able to control my speed without staring at the speedo all the time. If the awesome drivers on here are so awesome that they can make their own rules, how come they can’t keep tabs on their speed?

Me too.

The one thing that’s pretty much always forgotten in these threads is others. Other people driving, walking, running, cycling etc. Limits are also there for them. You can claim to be a driving god with the reflex speed of a snake but, if somebody or something else does something unpredictable you’re as **** as the rest of us.

Low speeds are good because it takes less time to stop and normally there is less chance of serious injury and death when shit goes sideways. Nobody cares if you think road A should be a forty and not a thirty limit and because you’re super awesome you’ll drive at forty. No, stop being a dick.

Have to say, re controlling your speed without looking at the speedo, I had to change my opinion a bit on that when I got an automatic- it pretty much goes at the speed it wants to. Taking away that direct connection between engine and wheel speed makes a big difference, something that used to just be absolute reflex/background processing is now something that always takes a little thought. Oh you want to hold your speed going down this hill? Be a shame if I… upshifted for you.

dangeourbrain
Full Member

if the average standard was as bad as its often made out none of us would be driving around having not been involved in an accident and so on.

Things have to go very wrong for there to be an actual collision. “Nobody got hit” isn’t a good metric for adequate driving. “Someone could have got hit” generally means things went exactly as badly wrong on the part of one driver, but other people or luck prevented it from becoming a collision.

Think of it from a cycling point of view- unless you take a pretty aggressive primary, you will be overtaken illegally close on pretty much every road ride. On my commute, actual good safe passes were the minority. Overtaking safely is a trivial job, a highway code basic, something you’re supposed to have learned before you even start your lessons.

if somebody or something else does something unpredictable you’re as **** as the rest of us.

Low speeds are good because it takes less time to stop and normally there is less chance of serious injury and death when shit goes sideways. Nobody cares if you think road A should be a forty and not a thirty limit and because you’re super awesome you’ll drive at forty. No, stop being a dick.

The point I’ve eventually matured to. Having a lad who has just learned to drive was very informative as well. Shook me out of a few bad habits, including regularly being 1-2mph over the limit.

All traffic laws need enforcing, and we need a Police, court, DVLA and retest system to enable that to happen. I don’t give a shit if a temporary ban for 12 points inconveniences you, if a punishment doesn’t inconvenience you it’s not a punishment. If I can only pick up 3 points in 33 years of driving, why can’t you?

Electric cars likewise, they’re so quiet that it’s harder to judge speed. Happily they’re fitted with a limiter so I just set that to whatever the limit is allowing for speedo error and lee way. In these parts I get the impression that almost everybody uses a limiter/regulator in the same way because I hardly ever feel the need to overtake and rarely find people on my bumper.

Most people drive pretty well when sober, not under the influence of anything else, not messing with the phone/gps/ICE or not going for it for whatever reason.

Edit: after our yellow vests put most of the fixed radars out of action the government changed tactic. There are now ordinary-looking cars being driven around by civilians with radars that measure and record the speed of every vehicle around them in both directions. So you might be being radared at any point you are shaing the road with a newish looking car. I think a lot of people have just thrown in the towel on going fast and just set the limiter in resignation.

I’d contest that. The general standard of driving in the UK is actually pretty good and the average isn’t that low.

And I’d contest that.

The general standard of driving in the UK is likely higher than in a lot of other countries, but it’s not good enough. The number of collisions I see on a day-to-day basis is very low but the amount of random twattery I see is off the chart.

My local Tesco is five minutes’ walk away and I can say with a degree of confidence that if I were to drive down right now at 6pm on a Friday evening I’d have to make at least one evasive manoeuvre to avoid some Country and Western on the wrong side of the road or pulling out of a side street without looking or axing round a 90′ blind corner at escape velocity.

Do you not think that’s just because there’s like a billion cars per square foot in this country. Well, a billion people per square foot who all have cars would be more accurate. Transplanted to another, more spacious country, we’re probably awesome drivers.

Cougar

Wasn’t me asking it.

But yeah, you’re right. It’s essentially a honeypot, they’re setting you up to fail. I just wasn’t putting up with that crap, they deal with abject morons day in day out and aren’t programmed to field someone who has actually read THC in the last decade. #DrivingGod #Obvs

Yep but because

find it incredible that people complain bitterly about driving standards AND IN THE SAME THREAD argue that people should be allowed to drive at whatever speed they feel is appropriate. Can’t you see a flaw in that?

I see a flaw in that no-one’s actually said that.

As already mentioned the message given out is:

We only worry about people drinking/speeding/running red lights (because the last 2 are automated).. so everything else is implied to be fine.

which leads to

The general standard of driving in the UK is likely higher than in a lot of other countries, but it’s not good enough. The number of collisions I see on a day-to-day basis is very low but the amount of random twattery I see is off the chart.

The main issue is actually the amount of random twattery. Even measuring the general standard is incredibly subjective… is it per 1000 miles or per trip or ???
We seem to be high up on the random twattery per trip based on my experience driving in god knows how many countries.

MoreCashThanDash

If I can only pick up 3 points in 33 years of driving, why can’t you?

Because I’ve driven carefully and considerately and in 35+ years never had a single point.

another may be five times over and more than capable of driving.

Do you drink and drive at five times over the limit???
If you drink appreciably more than the suggested maximum and then drive you are an arse in my opinion.

I see a flaw in that no-one’s actually said that.

It’s being implied by what deltacharlie72 said and many others have said in the past.

There are literally millions of journeys every day that go by without incident, that simply wouldn’t happen if the average driver really was a liability.

I would argue that my Spidey Sense, slowing and huge swerve avoided the two drivers in two incidents today, rather than their driving being of an acceptable standard.

Where the hell do you lot drive that this makes up the majority of people you share the road with?!?

Given the thread I counted today on my way home, 9miles, no close passes, not even a dick pass over the blind brow where I absolutely expect it, actually no twattery to speak of at all.

In a normal commute (3.5mi of country nsl Road, 5.5 of urban including passing 2 primary and 2 secondary schools) if I get one close pass it stands out, I reckon I get one a week most weeks.

Last week I did normal commute Monday, Hexham on Tuesday, Bude on Wednesday, Hexham Thursday and Preston on Friday that’s about 1300mi of driving in the week. I remember one pillock avoiding a pheasant by passing it on the opposite side of the road round a blind bend on an nsl rather than using brakes or just hitting it.

In a previous life I drove class 1 Bradford to felixstowe and folkstone I’d see maybe one or occasionaly two near misses a day. In 500mi a day, every day. Either, and its absolutely possible, I’ve a higher level of tolerance for having to use my brakes and other peoples general dickery, or you really need to think about the common denominator in all these near misses you see.

I would argue that my Spidey Sense, slowing and huge swerve avoided the two drivers in two incidents today

And how many other drivers did you pass that you didn’t need to avoid?

I hate speed cameras , I bitterly resent the tickets I’ve got

But that PCC is a dick, they make me moderate my behaviour and drive more sensibly, no matter how much I resent them

Where the hell do you lot drive that this makes up the majority of people you share the road with?!?

Greater Manchester, Lancashire, West Yorkshire, Cumbria

But that PCC is a dick

To be honest anyone who uses the phrase “war on motorists” should just have their driving licence removed permanently because they are bound to drive like a dick

It’s being implied by what deltacharlie72 said and many others have said in the past.

No, it’s being inferred by you, you put it in capitals and everything.

“Many others in the past” is grasping, I don’t recall anyone in the history of ever on STW arguing that they should be allowed to drive at whatever speed they want. Plenty have argued that numbers on poles are arbitrary bollocks and not fit for purpose, myself included. Plenty have argued that most people can’t be trusted to make sensible choices, myself included. And plenty have argued that we need better driver training, myself oh you get the idea. But these are all a very long way away from claiming “we want to be able to do what we like” and it’s disingenuous to be asserting otherwise.

C’mon Mols, you’re normally our poster boy voice of reason on here. Straw-manning doesn’t become you.

Dual carriageway limit is NSL which is 70mph for cars. You might choose to ignore speed limits but you should at least know what they are.

If a dual carriageway has a 30 limit then there’s probably an extraordinary reason for it.

Mebbe someone else needs a refresher on speed limits. 🙂

A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (48km/h) applies to all single and dual carriageways with street lights, unless there are signs showing otherwise.

UK National Speed Limits

If there is streel lighting on a dual carriageway, it is automatically 30mph, unless there are signs (and repeater signs) telling you otherwise.

Thus if you are travelling along a road with no street lighting and there is street lighting around a junction (for instance) (consisting of 3 or more Lamps, not more 183m apart) the limit would automatically change to 30 (with out need for signage) unless there was a repeater sign denoting another speed limit. And to avoid confusion, repeater 30mph limit signage is not allowed on roads with street lighting. I don’t think it is required to place a 30mph sign at the start as the street lights automatic cause the speed restriction, but it is done as convention to make it clear.

Motorways are different to dual carriageways, thus they are national speed limit be default unless otherwise signposted (hence why a motorway has blue signage and has restrictions on what vehicles can travel on them)

I’d rather see a purge on drug drivers.

Road riding on my commute the smell of weed wafting from cars at 6am in the morning was frightening.

Speeding in urban areas is wrong. No ifs no buts. But on a clear country road with line of site where the limit was 60 dropping that limit to 50 or 40 seems pointless.

70mph 7am in the rain on a motorway legal

90mph at 10pm in the clear and dry illegal

I’d argue the latter is safer.

Inappropriate use of speed kills.

Look it’s quite simple. If you are a Driving God the law doesn’t apply to you because you are amazing.

70mph 7am in the rain on a motorway legal

90mph at 10pm in the clear and dry illegal

I’d argue the latter is safer.

I see where you are coming from but we have to count for the lowest common denominator, the common or garden ****. The vast majority of people seem to see the speed limit as a mandatory minimum requirement. It’s not, it is the maximum allowable speed depending on conditions. That’s way too complicated for a lot of people. If you had a variable, weather dependent speed limit, how would you enforce it?

Your clear sight line argument, how about hedgerows, field openings, crossroads and stopping distances? Are you taking these in to account when driving at sixty?

Road riding on my commute the smell of weed wafting from cars at 6am in the morning was frightening.

I know! Its especially noticeable when cycling but I’ve started to notice it while driving. If whatever you are smoking can make it into my car with its windows shut I think it’s safe to say you probably shouldn’t be smoking it while driving!

Of course the STW hippies will be along to say that weed is ok, lalalalala whatever….

If you had a variable, weather dependent speed limit, how would you enforce it?

Really easily here where the limit drops from 130kmh to 110kmh in the rain. The gendarmes just drive along at about 115kmh and nick anyone daft enough to overtake. This sometimes leads to Indy pace car type situations that make me smile.

The irony is that the anti-camera brigade are most likely Tory voters – inflicting austerity and swingeing cuts to the police which results in the increased use of cameras because there are no traffic police left in many regions.

The irony is most speed camera advocates are probably Tory voters that will believe anything a person in a position of power tells them.

*Other stupid sweeping statements available upon request.

The gendarmes just drive along at about 115kmh and nick anyone daft enough to overtake. This sometimes leads to Indy pace car type situations that make me smile.

I wish this would happen over here 😀

Mebbe someone else needs a refresher on speed limits. 🙂

Nope, well aware of the street light thing, thanks. But in practice I can count the number of times I’ve seen a 30mph dual carriageway with no other signage on the fingers of one foot.

(Cue everyone scrabbling to post an exception to prove me wrong; don’t bother, I don’t doubt there are somewhere but it’d be highly unusual.)

The vast majority of people seem to see the speed limit as a mandatory minimum requirement. It’s not,

Yes it is, unless situations dictate otherwise. If you drove everywhere at 20mph in clear conditions on your driving test, for no other reason than the vertically impressive equine argument “it’s a limit not a target,” you would fail. Guaranteed.

If it’s chucking down or you’re in a tractor or something then obviously this doesn’t apply, it’s not Mandatory mandatory, but if you can then you should. Funny how speed differential is such a big problem when we’re talking about people going too fast on the motorway yet it goes out of the window when we’re talking about people going too slowly.

If you had a variable, weather dependent speed limit, how would you enforce it?

France seems to manage OK?

Yes it is, unless situations dictate otherwise.

No, it really isn’t. On this rare occasion you are wrong. Of course doing 20 in a 50 for no reason is a hazard. Doing 25 in a 30 is not.

The big issue is that Traffic Patrols basically don’t exist any more so the roads are essentially unmonitored, especially in an area you know well so can avoid triggering the cameras for speed, red lights and box junctions. Put more patrols out so the risk of being caught increases for things like phone use, middle lane hogging, tailgating and no seat belt.

Static cameras encourage speeders to brake heavily for them then speed back up, this is dangerous. Average Speed cameras encourage calm behaviour on the whole so are my preferred option. The only place they don’t work is where locals know they don’t pass two between junctions so floor it for that part. Since they made the M4 round Newport and between Swansea and Port Talbot average cameras the standards of driving have gone up massively, mainly due to everyone going at the same speed and reducing the need or reward for changing lanes.

Speeding isn’t the biggest issue, it’s just poor standards of driving.

I’d advocate driving assessments every 5-10 years (note: not a retest) for the simple reason that people pass their test then drive how they think is correct, not what they were taught. It doesn’t help that the lessons focus purely on passing the test and don’t teach the higher skills needed to be truly safe: anticipation, defensive positioning and courteousy. This will never happen though.

Taking away that direct connection between engine and wheel speed makes a big difference, something that used to just be absolute reflex/background processing is now something that always takes a little thought. Oh you want to hold your speed going down this hill? Be a shame if I… upshifted for you.

I’m currently learning to drive a HGV and the height coupled with it being an automatic means judging your speed is really hard! 40 feels like 20 and 20 feels like walking pace. I did ask if they had a manual truck I could use but they only use auto’s as lots of people struggle to control the things while changing gear. It’s my one worry about electric cars, no mechanical feedback to indicate speed like I get in a manual car.

There’s also the issue of modern cars insulating you so much from the outside that they almost feel too safe. Stick a person used to their leased safety cell into an older car like a Mk1 Golf, Beetle or a Mini and they’ll suddenly realise how unsafe other road users are. I would say stick them on a bike or motorbike but that removes them too far from their reality so wouldn’t have the same effect.

Yes it is, unless situations dictate otherwise.

No it’s not and the clue is in the name. It’s a limit not a fixed speed or minimum requirement. It’s the maximum allowable speed depending on conditions. Conditions are rarely perfect.

I passed my test and travelled below thirty in a thirty, never hit the NSL on a country lane section. Didn’t go past forty. Instructor told me it was a very pleasant drive.

France seems to manage OK?

We’re not in France. Perhaps they have a more proactive approach as evidenced by Edukators post.

Every time one of these threads crops up we have people trying to defend speeding. The fact of the matter is excessive speed makes any incident a hell of a lot worse and heightens the chance of somebody being killed. I speak from experience on this front. There simply isn’t a need to drive anywhere at excessive speed and I don’t care how person x is able to because they are so much better at driving. The faster you go, the longer it takes to react and stop. It’s that simple.

dangourbrain

Where the hell do you lot drive that this makes up the majority of people you share the road with?!?

Given the thread I counted today on my way home, 9miles, no close passes, not even a dick pass over the blind brow where I absolutely expect it, actually no twattery to speak of at all.

In a normal commute (3.5mi of country nsl Road, 5.5 of urban including passing 2 primary and 2 secondary schools) if I get one close pass it stands out, I reckon I get one a week most weeks.

Last week I did normal commute Monday, Hexham on Tuesday, Bude on Wednesday, Hexham Thursday and Preston on Friday that’s about 1300mi of driving in the week. I remember one pillock avoiding a pheasant by passing it on the opposite side of the road round a blind bend on an nsl rather than using brakes or just hitting it.

I literally can’t drive anywhere (like Wickes 2 miles away) without either adjusting my driving when I have priority or having an accident.

How many lanes did you use in 1300mi ?
Last motorway trip about 75 miles then another 65 on the A12 I would have lost count of the number of **** sat in the middle lane. (In the hundreds) …
This leaves 2 basic choices … drive like a **** and join them or be boxed in every speed limited vehicle I come across whilst 50 or a 100 or so vehicles go past as I have to drop to 50mph.

or you really need to think about the common denominator in all these near misses you see.

My two incidents yesterday

– one was a car stopping a half bonnet over the stop line, requiring a swerve out to avoid a bump.

– one was one of the neighbours cutting at the turn into our road, completely wrong side around a tall hedge with no sight line. Thankfully it’s a junction I always go slow having seen the corner cutting regularly.

I can add today’s fool who didn’t want to wait behind cyclist in new 20mph zone, around blind bend. So overtook our car and the<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> cyclist on the bend, to promptly try a left hook onto A9…</span>

I’m interested in the common denominator, because I’m not convinced it’s me.

Given the thread I counted today on my way home, 9miles, no close passes, not even a dick pass over the blind brow where I absolutely expect it, actually no twattery to speak of at all.

I agree most drivers are ok.

But there’s a constant low level of numptiness, occasional idiocy, that I see most weeks.

We’re not in France. Perhaps they have a more proactive approach as evidenced by Edukators post.

Yes, it involves actual police not automated cameras

I don’t quite get all the middle lane moaning. Not that I do sit in the middle lane, but can’t you just use the fast lane to overtake? If they were sat in the fast lane doing 70 then fair enough, one can’t get past without undertaking. But the first lane is usually full of trucks so can understand why some people would see the middle lane as ‘lane 1’. What’s the issue? Not being argumentative, genuinely interested. I’ve been driving a long time and can honestly say I’ve never encountered this problem.

Last motorway trip about 75 miles then another 65 on the A12 I would have lost count of the number of **** sat in the middle lane. (In the hundreds) …
This leaves 2 basic choices … drive like a **** and join them or be boxed in every speed limited vehicle I come across whilst 50 or a 100 or so vehicles go past as I have to drop to 50mph.

If there is that many 56mph vehicle using lane 1 then arguably staying in lane 2 is correct. Better than changing lanes every 20 or 30 seconds.

The other drivers obviously chose not to get boxed in at 56mph.

Your clear sight line argument, how about hedgerows, field openings, crossroads and stopping distances? Are you taking these in to account when driving at sixty?

If you’ve any of them you dont have a clear line of site

If they were sat in the fast lane doing 70 then fair enough, one can’t get past without undertaking

Why would you be getting past someone already at the legal limit?

In a perfect world, you would go at a speed where you can stop in tne distance you can see is clear, whatever your means of transport. Most of us probably don’t