This shows that nationalists really do feel different to everyone else in the UK despite claims to the contrary.

I don’t know what the nationalists feel, I’m not a nationalist. I’ve said it many times, I’d much prefer proper reform of the UK – a proper federal system of government. But that is not being offered by anyone, there’s zero chance of it happening, so second best choice is for part of the UK to show how it could be done.

It really isn’t about you. It’s about us.

Half my country is disappearing so yes it’s about me.

Go on – tell me Scotland’s not my country, I dare you!

But that is not being offered by anyone, there’s zero chance of it happening

Again this is a ridiculous argument. When talking about the status quo in Scotland, the answer is ‘oh it’ll change in the future’. When talking about the status quo in Westminster, it’ll never change.

What the fk? This is really stupid thinking.

I’m not talking about individual campaigns, I’m talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you’re part of the UK.

We do – but as election after election shows, the way Scotland votes has little to no impact on the government the UK gets. Scotland can’t help you via the ballot box, maybe we can help you in other ways.

molgrips – Member
What actions have you taken for democracy this week?
Um.. what? Why do you ask?

I’m not talking about individual campaigns, I’m talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you’re part of the UK.your belief in Westminster is admirable, but unfortunately not shared.

molgrips – Member
It really isn’t about you. It’s about us.
Half my country is disappearing so yes it’s about me.

Go on – tell me Scotland’s not my country, I dare you!here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it’s not…

Half my country is disappearing so yes it’s about me.

We’re not going anywhere. The mountains will still be here. The lochs aren’t going anywhere. The MTB trails will be an good as ever. All that’s changing is what government we have.

here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it’s not…

Not at all. I’m trying to show you my point of view.

All that’s changing is what government we have.

For you maybe. For me, what’s changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can’t you understand why that represents a loss to me?

athgray – Member
…Is it contempt or apathy that nationalist feel towards the UK workforce? It certainly is not a sense of solidarity.

No, it is bewilderment.

Many parts of the Uk face the same problems as us, but they have not organised and done something about it. You can’t have solidarity with someone who is doing nothing.

If there is apathy, it’s not on our side.

Spot on – I think the crab bucket analogy is a good one here.

molgrips – Member
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it’s not…
Not at all. I’m trying to show you my point of view.

I get it, but you’ll always be welcome. There are no barriers going up to you.

You can’t have solidarity with someone who is doing nothing.

Of course you can.

But in any case, to claim that there are no political activists in England and Wales is a bit.. well.. incorrect.

I get it, but you’ll always be welcome. There are no barriers going up to you.

So I should move ot Scotland? That’s the answer?

Scotlands not your country,if it was,you would have a say in what happens to it.There; I dared.

For you maybe. For me, what’s changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can’t you understand why that represents a loss to me?

I can, but we can’t help you at the moment. Maybe we can instead show by example.

But in any case, to claim that there are no political activists in England and Wales is a bit.. well.. incorrect.

Aye, you’re right. There’s plenty of grass roots campaigning, problem is, they’re all voting for UKIP 😉

molgrips – Member
Half my country is disappearing so yes it’s about me.

Go on – tell me Scotland’s not my country, I dare you!

I will.

Scotland is not your country, just as England is not my country, Wales is not my country, and Northern Ireland is not my country.

If you want it to be your country you are welcome to come and live and vote here.

There’s one thing Scotland can do to help – we can give the political establishment the biggest kick up the arse it’s had in 300 years.

Once we do that, maybe the rest of the UK can seize the opportunity to change things.

Show by example?

So we should all somehow contrive to declare independence from Westminster? Lol ok.. not really an option though.

Scotlands not your country

Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country. The only argument against that is a nationalistic one, which is what I was trying to say.

I can, but we can’t help you at the moment.

No but you can at the next election.

epicyclo – Member
I could see the value of lowering corporate taxes to a certain extent. Many corporations based in Scotland currently are headquartered in London so pay their taxes there. A lower rate would attract them up here and the total tax take would be higher. I can see your point about a race to the bottom, but I don’t think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.

Why Scotland over Rep. of Ireland though?

No but you can at the next election.

How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour? Yeah, right, we fell for that one before 😉

Yes, Labour. Maybe you could join the Labour party and vote for its leadership? Perhaps you could even join in the campaigning, since we’re talking about actual political activisim here.

Can’t do any of that if you are not in the UK.

bencooper – Member
How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour?…

You forgot the moral party – the LibDems.

Oh….

Yeah, right, we fell for that one before

Yes, Labour. Maybe you could join the Labour party and vote for its leadership?

But that brings us back to the same problem that we’re massively outnumbered – Labour has swung to the right because that’s what wins elections, and even if a big number of Scots joined the party and moved it back to the left, it’d just start losing elections again.

A swing to the left is on the cards imo.

A swing to the left is on the cards imo.

I hope so, but the rise of UKIP doesn’t look good.

The Yes campaign seems to think that if independence happens that just by lowering corporate tax then this will solve problems. If a business is based in Scotland and does the bulk of it’s business in the UK, then there is a high risk that they will move to the UK after independence. Especially for the financial sector.

And why relocate to Scotland from the UK, will Scotland be competing with Ireland or Luxembourg for corporate tax levels? If this is the case then you could argue that big business has got control of the Scottish Government.

The other point that comes along is that Scotland becomes just another foreign country and is competing with other countries to supply the UK. Why should the UK buy power from Scotland if it can get it cheaper from France, why should ships be built on the Clyde when they can be built cheaper elsewhere in the world or built in the UK to create jobs.

By all means choose independence, but go in with your eyes open. While some may be fully aware of the impact, the Yes campaign seems to be a game of smoke and mirrors. Perhaps if it was honest about the risks then the mandate that it wants would be fully justified. If independence happens then I suspect many Yes voters are going to be surprised about the impact of the decision.

You do wonder though if all the passion and money spent on the vote had been focused on managing Scotland better now, inside the devolved system, what it could have achieved. One legacy of the vote will be a split country, both inside Scotland and within the UK. Perhaps when this has all settled down, we should decide was it worth it.

Maybe this referendum will make politicans realise that people can give a shit if they think there’s something worth voting for. I think it would be pretty easy for a Labour leader to ride the anti-fatcat sentiment and persuade a huge number of non-voters.

Now, how to persuade them of that..?

You do wonder though if all the passion and money spent on the vote had been focused on managing Scotland better now, inside the devolved system, what it could have achieved.

Yes, and there’s quite a few people saying that whichever way the vote goes the country won’t be the same.

Unless I missed it, no one has commented on iScotland being unable to join the EU without a central bank?

At the end of the day, this is going to be a very, very close vote. The nature if the mandate will reflect this ie, neither side will be able to argue a convincing mandate. This is obvious since the reality is that devolved power within a bigger union is the optimum outcome. YS knows this, that is why they are clinging on to as much of the status quo as possible and the CU argument reinforces the message, albeit distorted to accommodate the vanity aspect rather than the interests of Scotland and the UK.

Before any more is spouted in the so-called privatisation is the NHS it may be worth confirming the levels of spending on private services on both sides of the border, Funny how Tories (sorry that was for yS convenience, should be coalition) and SNP patterns mirror each other yet one side is the defender while the other is the destroyer of the NHS. Strip away the rhetoric and simply more deceit…….

Futon it has come up many times and Rehn’s intervention yesterday was noted – but details, details…..apparently unimportant!

Strip away the rhetoric and simply more deceit.

Yep. Because it’s a nationalistic issue not an economic or pragmatic one. End of.

molgrips – Member
So I should move ot Scotland? That’s the answer?

You’re more than welcome to.

But that brings us back to the same problem that we’re massively outnumbered – Labour has swung to the right because that’s what wins elections

Democracy isn’t it Ben – I thought that was what you were championing. If you are massively outnumbered ie a minority why does that give you the right to impose your will on the majority?

Sturgeon’s attempt to label Alexander as a Tory last night summed it up – little more than we don’t like English Tories and we are prepared to sacrifice common sense and limit our futures on that basis (even though you copy many of their policies yourself). Utter bllx……

molgrips – Member
Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country. The only argument against that is a nationalistic one, which is what I was trying to say.

To make it clear btw, I don’t share these nationalist thoughts, I am sympathetic to your point of view, but ultimately I feel it’s futile.

Democracy isn’t it Ben – I thought that was what you were championing. If you are massively outnumbered ie a minority why does that give you the right to impose your will on the majority?

It doesn’t, which is why we should go our own way.

Futon it has come up many times and Rehn’s intervention yesterday was noted – but details, details…..apparently unimportant!

I have a feeling (as an innocent bystander) that there is a silent majority who are intelligent enough to see through the smoke and mirrors and will vote against independence. If the no vote isn’t in excess of 60% I’ll be surprised.

The Yes vote is being vehemently pushed by ceryain types who have no interest in the bigger picture. last night there was a young (dim looking) chap in the audience, who spent the whole evening shaking his head at every utterence from the No campaigners. Did he have anything to say, any questions to ask? Erm…Of course not.

Now I frankly don’t give a fig what they vote, but it annoys me that these people are gambling with their country’s future, with no concern about the risks that won’t affect them, but the generations to come.

last night there was a young (dim looking) chap in the audience

What’s “dim looking”?

The Yes vote is being vehemently pushed by ceryain types who have no interest in the bigger picture.

Would you like to point out these ‘certain types’? Or should I make the accusation that the no campaign is being push by certain types with no interest in society but only their personal wealth?

I am sympathetic to your point of view, but ultimately I feel it’s futile.

And the only reason for making this drastic decision is that you “hope” it’ll be different.

What’s “dim looking”?

Looks ‘dim’…def: Stupid or slow to understand: