the three main parties agree on more devolution

Can we just put this one to bed? There is no agreement for additional devolution. Some senior party bods are suggesting that some powers might be available, but these don’t have agreement of their parliamentary colleagues, so they ‘d first have to be agreed party-wide, then there would have to be legislation passed through Westminster. All of this would be happening while the parties are preparing for a 2015 UKGE and they would all be under pressure from the majority of their voters (i.e. in England) not to “placate” those in Scotland (see recent press articles).

This isn’t about honesty (or otherwise) from the likes of David Cameron, it’s about him making promises he is unable to fulfill.

Exactly. No-one is proposing more devolution other than of income tax which is, as I’ve detailed, a poisoned chalice.

Can we just put this one to bed? There is no agreement for additional devolution.

nor is their any agreement on a “punishment” for Scotland post “no” either, but don’t let that get in the way of “project feart” 😉

The killer is infrastructure – infrastructure spending per head in London is around £5000, and that’s not quoted in the normal public spending figures.

Those figures are meaningless until you know what the histrorical and future infrastructure plans are for the various regions. FWIW I do think spending should be more widely spread, I thought the new ‘Wembley’ should have been built in the midlands for example.

But the whole topic is whataboutery really.

big_n_daft – Member
project feart

Haha, surprised it’s took 2 years for someone to come up with that, very good! 😆

I have my moments of genius 😉

bencooper – Member
Exactly. No-one is proposing more devolution other than of income tax which is, as I’ve detailed, a poisoned chalice.

Ah, so that is why the likes of tartan taxes have yet to utilised 😉

bencooper – Member
If only that were true – sadly the Future of England survey showed that it’s ordinary English people who want to punish the Scots for even trying to get independence:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/leader-comment-english-opinion-on-independence-1-3514693

I haven’t seen the poll, just this article but it sounds like what they/you view as the English ‘punishing’ the Scots, is the English 1 protecting their own interests regarding a potentially disastrous currency union and 2 wanting greater fairness – spending levels equalised across the UK and preventing the Scots voting on English only matters, much as the Scots already enjoy with their own parliament. Is that it or have I misunderstood?

spending levels equalised across the UK

I’d be delighted to see spending levels equalised across the UK. We spend far more on tax up here than those of you south of the border.

Why is it surprising that “ordinary English” (not forgetting rest of rUK) are peed of with the DO. He makes irresponsible comments that are detrimental to our future, he proposes (understandably) things that are only in Scotlands best interest and then cries foul when rUK do the same. Having your oatcake and eating it grates very quickly.

So when he comes out to play in the big boys playground he quickly gets put in his place, even by the Mild Darling. He would have benefited from boarding as a kid.

Whatever happens Scotland will have a greater (disproportionate in the ST) level of representation and yet many will still moan like spoilt kids. And then folk wonder why that makes them unpopular in rUK?

The spending levels equalised thing: How much does it cost to collect someone’s bins in, say, Luton? How much does it cost in Tobermory? How much does it cost to provide methadone treatment in, say, Chorley? How much in Glasgow? The whole point of the block grant is that it costs more to provide services and other things in some areas, and some areas are in greater need. It is a nonsense to try to equalise that.

He would have benefited from boarding as a kid.

You would benefit from boarding now – waterboarding.

The whole point of the block grant is that it costs more to provide services and other things in some areas, and some areas are in greater need. It is a nonsense to try to equalise that.

There’s only one vote which keeps the block grant.

There’s only one vote which keeps the block grant.

Correct. However there’s one vote which means we get to control all our revenue instead of handing most of it over to Westminster and getting some of it back if we ask nicely.

Charming wan…, remember what you said a few pages back about losing an argument. You were right. But I guess defending the indefensible gets to everyone in the end.

But the result is Scotland will have less to spend than it currently has (or it has to increase borrowing).

That bit about the ‘ordinary English punishing the Scots’ really makes my case for me. If the Scots try to protect their (perceived) interests by attempting to gain Independence then that’s a good thing, if the English attempt to protect their interests by denying a CU, stopping Scots MP’s voting on internal English matters and demanding ‘fairness’ it is not only bullying but a vindictive punishment for attempting Independence.

Scots may be fed up of a lot of things, I’m fed up constantly being accused of being vindictive bully.

But the result is Scotland will have less to spend than it currently has (or it has to increase borrowing).

Not true. Scotland is the second-richest area of the UK after London – we’ll have more to spend than we do at the moment. And that’s before you add in the savings from not renewing Trident etc.

Muddydwarf, the problem is how you define “fairness” – it seems that public opinion thinks Westminster taking Scotland’s oil revenue is fair, but Scotland receiving higher public spending is not fair. I’d say neither is particularly fair.

If Scotland Were Independent: A Timeline of Tragedy

😀

Oh, and Better Together are still up to their trick of pretending party people are ordinary members of the public:

Barry is saying No Thanks to separation because he wants to remain part of something bigger. Read more here http://t.co/IpYZc7Q8CT #indyref

— Better Together (@UK_Together) August 21, 2014

They really are embarrassingly bad at lying…

Still, Jim Murphy got a good crowd on the Royal Mile today

Shame most of them were waiting for him to do some juggling….. and can’t vote anyway

bencooper – Member
The spending levels equalised thing: How much does it cost to collect someone’s bins in, say, Luton? How much does it cost in Tobermory? How much does it cost to provide methadone treatment in, say, Chorley? How much in Glasgow? The whole point of the block grant is that it costs more to provide services and other things in some areas, and some areas are in greater need. It is a nonsense to try to equalise that.

This is a complete red herring, the English of course do not expect to exactly equalise spending per capita all across the union.
What is expected is that spending is brought into line and made equal based on need and not an arbitrary ratio, which is what it currently is based on. Your example of Glasgow, compare spending there to Blackpool or Clacton, compare it to Merthyr Tydfil. Scotland gets more than it strictly should, based on need. That is what people want equalised.

Look up the HoL write up on the 1993 Needs Assessment studies from the treasury for and indication of the numbers involved.

Poor old AS. First one of his advisers on the FC highlights that he is talking bllx on the currency and now here comes the second, Stiglitz, commenting as Europe is entering a Japanese-style depression (his words not mine) that the very system that the DO wants to take Scotland into combines a “flawed structure with flawed policies.”

As he puts it simply, the Euro zone is not (unlike the UK) and optimum currency area (no **** Sherlock)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/64217ffa-2946-11e4-baec-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3B1Kyrcfh

“So people of Scotland, let me extracte you from an optimum currency area that works, and take you into a flawed transition and then into a system that my advisers tell me has flawed structures and flawed policies……don’t worry about me, I will have banked my pension in time. Nae probs….” You couldn’t make it up.

bencooper – Member

If Scotland Were Independent: A Timeline of Tragedy

So that’s where Baron Robertson of Port Ellen gets his material from. 😆

This Stiglitz?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-20/stiglitz-says-u-k-would-drop-denial-of-pound-to-scotland.html

The U.K. government’s refusal to grant a currency union with an independent Scotland is a bargaining chip and will be dropped if voters back independence in next month’s referendum, Joseph Stiglitz said.

I have a suggestion for all of you who think Scotland is getting an unfair share of your tax money.

Contact your MP urgently and ask him to get the UK govt to support Scottish independence right now, so that the referendum succeeds.

Then you’ll be rid of us. Win win.

teamhurtmore – Member
Poor old AS. First one of his advisers on the FC highlights that he is talking bllx on the currency and now here comes the second, Stiglitz, commenting as Europe is entering a Japanese-style depression (his words not mine) that the very system that the DO wants to take Scotland into combines a “flawed structure with flawed policies.”

As he puts it simply, the Euro zone is not (unlike the UK) and optimum currency area (no **** Sherlock)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/64217ffa-2946-11e4-baec-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3B1Kyrcfh

“So people of Scotland, let me extracte you from an optimum currency area that works, and take you into a flawed transition and then into a system that my advisers tell me has flawed structures and flawed policies……don’t worry about me, I will have banked my pension in time. Nae probs….” You couldn’t make it upthese financial people have a fine track record on predicting the future! 😆 is the euro going to collapse now we’ve heard the 1500th prediction that it will? 😆

epicyclo – Member
I have a suggestion for all of you who think Scotland is getting an unfair share of your tax money.

Contact your MP urgently and ask him to get the UK govt to support Scottish independence right now, so that the referendum succeeds.

Then you’ll be rid of us. Win win. the UK government is supporting independence(right to decide). Kinda how we are getting the referendum in the first place. Can’t fault them on that.

Or this Stiglitz?

THE Nobel prize-winning economist who helped draw up Alex Salmond’s fiscal and economic blueprint for independence has warned Scottish economic growth would suffer unless the country broke away from the UK pattern of growing inequality.

Professor Joseph Stiglitz served on the Fiscal Commission and its working group under chairman Crawford Beveridge, which reported this week on how an independent Scotland within a Sterling zone could flourish.

The US expert is understood to have pressed for the inclusion of a section in the report making the direct link between social and economic inequality and stunted economic growth.

Mr Stiglitz said countries which are more unequal do not grow as well and are less stable. A concentration of income restricts economic growth by limiting the potential of people to contribute productively.

At the same time inequality may restrict government investment in infrastructure, education, and technology.

The working group report pointed out that since 1975 the income gap had grown faster in the UK than in any other developed country. It added: “Such patterns of inequality will continue to have a negative impact on growth and prosperity over the long-term.”

But it concluded that “without access to the relevant policy levers – particularly taxation and welfare policy – there is little the Scottish Government can do to address these trends”.

saw an interesting thing on Ch4 news showing letters from AS to electricite de france saying they will allow them to continue running their nuclear reactors in an independent scotland rather than create the nuclear free scotland they campaign about.

got to say I’m really leaning to the better together side in the last couple of weeks, too many lies, too few facts to be comfortable.

AFAIK the plan has always been to run the existing reactors until they reach end-of-life. Have you a link regarding anything to the contrary?

no but their end of life will be after mine, they keep them going for so long these days. can’t make my mind up about nuclear power either. Hmm.

Looks like we could have them for another 10-15 years max. I hope to live at least that long 🙂

I’m more concerned that Ch4 are presenting these letters as some sort of secret deal when SNP policy on this changed years ago.

I don’t remember anyone promising that on the day of independence our nuclear reactors would be shut down. Of course they’re going to run until end of life. No-one has ever suggested any different.

It’s the nuclear weapons we want rid of ASAP. Completely different thing, impossible to confuse the two.

I’m all for nuclear power if needed, I’m completely against paying for nuclear weapons. I’d imagine most would be the same.

Completely different thing, impossible to confuse the two.

Are you sure it’s not possible to confuse the two ?

SNP-CND seem to link both issues together :

http://www.snpcnd.org/power.php

Nuclear power was introduced as a cover to produce nuclear weapons. The tritium booster was made at Chapelhall near Dumfries and the plutonium explosive was made at Calderhall near Sellafield.. New nuclear power facilities would likely fuel the nuclear arms race.

The same Stiglitz – so two Fiscal Commission advisers in the past couple of days either distancing themselves and (more importantly) their credibility and reputation from AS’s inability to articulate what they have told him (it must have been very embarassing to be professionally associated we such BS) or just rats leaving a sinking ship?

Joined later today by the Chairman of HSBC. The impressive list of people alienated by AS grows by the day. Good job they don’t employ lots of Scots locally. Oh dear, my mistake…..

Those aren’t the figures I’ve seen. The killer is infrastructure – infrastructure spending per head in London is around £5000, and that’s not quoted in the normal public spending figures.

Classic bencooper! ignore being completely wrong and introduce another issue which you hope leads to the same conclusion.

but in any case, so what? obviously it costs more to build Crossrail in London than stick in a new bypass for a Central Belt town. it doesn’t mean that Central Belters are worse served.

The tritium booster was made at Chapelhall near Dumfries

That would be Chapelcross near Dumfries and that would have been decommissioned around 10 years ago, if not more along, with the power station which was built so that the weapons plant could get a nuclear licence.

Not true. Scotland is the second-richest area of the UK after London – we’ll have more to spend than we do at the moment. And that’s before you add in the savings from not renewing Trident etc.

Whether Scotland is better or worse than London is neither here nor there – London is not aiming to become independent. What really matters is whether Scotland can meet its current spending commitments, or will an iScotland have to introduce its own austerity measures.

Do you have any figures to back up the claim that an independent Scotland would have more money to spend? – all of the analysis that I have seen has been to the contrary e.g.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/314359/Scotland_analysis__Fiscal_policy_and_sustainability.pdf

Obviously Salmond had his ‘independence bonus’ but the SNP have had to admit they had no analysis to support their claim.

Those Trident savings are going to be spread very thin when you consider the plans for iScotland to delay PIP, meet the renewables obligations, set up revenue and other government depts. etc. And that’s before you consider the reduction in revenue from the finance sector and the loss of revenues from ‘foreign’ owned companies which are currently allocated to Scotland.