It seems to have degenerated into petty name calling, trolling and no analysis or debate.

Spot the common denominator? Remove that and the thread is pretty civil and interesting.

I knew some clever person would spot that that oxford professor was Scottish 😉

Okay, so Scottish people are unreliable when they’re talking about independence? Does that apply to No-voting Scots like Alastair Darling and Gordon Brown? Or does it only apply to Scots who say things that might be construed as helping the Yes side?

That circular argument has been tried on this thread before – an expert was accused of being a Yes supporter, the evidence was that they said something that agreed with the Yes position.

If by civilised you mean making claims you cannot back up then crying troll then yes it is very civilised.

Nothing i said in my previous post did anything other than point out your summation of the dispatches programme was at odds with the facts, was biased and was one sided. Playing the man wont alter the fact you were incorrect in your analysis.

You know you cannot defend what you said as accurate hence you play me and not the point I made as you know you have no defence.

Okay, so Scottish people are unreliable when they’re talking about independence? Does that apply to No-voting Scots like Alastair Darling and Gordon Brown?

It’s reasonable to assume that most Scots have a biased opinion concerning whether Scotland should separate from the rest of the UK. Any opinions expressed with regards to that issue by Alastair Darling and Gordon Brown can only seen in the context of their bias. It would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

So in answer to your question of course the opinions of Alastair Darling and Gordon Brown should not be considered neutral and impartial.

What about people from elsewhere in the UK? Can they be impartial? Can anyone?

Some interesting points raised in Pestons program . In my opinion the most surprising one was that at the end he concluded economics is only one important factor to be considered among many including identity.

People are unreliable when they (1) are ignorant of the facts, (2) know the facts but forget them, (3) know that facts but prefer to lie, (4) know the facts but prefer to deceive the voters.

So start with a trained economist (MA no less) from Scotland’s finest University who regularly states in public that a currency is an asset. 1,2,3 or 4 or a combination?

It’s impossible to be neutral or unbiased but is is possible to stick to factual evidence. Funny how a whole range of people manage to do that even though they are on very different sides of the political and economic debate! Takes a magician to unite so many against himself.

qSome interesting points raised in Pestons program . In my opinion the most surprising one was that at the end he concluded economics is only one important factor to be considered among many including identity.

True and yet odd that the early poll indicated that £500 and the vote is yours pall!

People are unreliable when they (1) are ignorant of the facts, (2) know the facts but forget them, (3) know that facts but prefer to lie, (4) know the facts but prefer to deceive the voters

So pretty much every politician, then?

Unlike, say, academics at prestigious universities who have to produce peer-reviewed papers to get funding.

Every played poker with a prof Ben?

Anyway what’s the issue with Europe? Smooth negotiations immediately and all done and dusted in 18 months. Yer man works miracles, he says so with a “straight” face (1,2,3 or 4?)

Aw shucks Thm you say the sweetest things but….no not for 500quid not even for 500 unicorns 😆

Every played poker with a prof Ben?

My dad only knows Gin Rummy.

Europe will be fudged, of course it will, because the alternative to not letting Scotland join will be a lot messier, and we meet the criteria anyway. Only an officious moron would make Scotland leave and then rejoin agin in a year or two.

And you only need to get 28 other countries to agree with that point of view to make it come true… 😉

Unlike, say, academics at prestigious universities who have to produce peer-reviewed papers to get funding.

Like Professor Adam Tomkins at the School of Law of the University of Glasgow ?

According to Professor Adam Tomkins :

“It is clear that if we leave the UK then we would need to reapply to join the EU. To imagine that an independent Scotland could negotiate and ratify the terms of membership which the Scottish Government are proposing within an 18 month time-frame is hopelessly unrealistic”

http://news.stv.tv/politics/281876-law-professor-says-independent-scotlands-eu-membership-assured/

Fascinating ernie but what nationality is he ? 😉 [ not a real question to be clear]

It’s impossible to be neutral or unbiased but is is possible to stick to factual evidence. Funny how a whole range of people manage to do that even though they are on very different sides of the political and economic debate!

Funny how folk only say this about the ones who agree with them and then ignore it when say their side use the figures of someone who then criticises their sides analysis [ cost setups for example]
You should have watched dispatches programme as it mentioned how the UK “neutrality” was not true [ in diplomatic communications] and they [ UK] put pressure on international figures and leaders to support the Union…see if you can name some it worked on.

Clearly Ys do exactly the same and put pressure on folk so that some wont speak out and feel silenced.Neither side, nor their supporters , are anywhere near impartial but some are way more biased than others

To try and claim your side is and the other is not is daft [ I am not sure if you are claiming this tbh.

Gordi, take it up with scotcen social research

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25846914

Their idea not mine. I would rather spend the money at the Peat Inn, Inverlochy or Altniharre than buying a yes vote!

Professor Adam Tomkins? This Professor Adam Tomkins?

https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfTomkins

Yeah, he’s totally impartial 😀

Ah, but he’s working at a Scottish Uni so is therefor not impartial and can’t be trusted. See how that work? Silly, isn’t it.

The argument from the Prof in Oxford and the legal advice given to the Government is that although that option is the most obvious in law, the situation isn’t likely to occur to a whole host of things mentioned in both papers and reports. u But I feel we’ve been over this before.

You do remember we’re talking about the EU? Do you not see the problem?

No one can predict what the EU will do and , given they fudged the Euro, stopped having referendum when they were not going their way and then claimed it was not a constitution then I am sure we can all agree they can do pretty much anything they please

Personally, given they are expansionist and the precedent[ish] of germany I think they will find a way to allow them to “remain” in the EU.

Most EU leaders think Cameron is an idiot – several have already said so – so I wouldn’t put it past various EU leaders to wave Scotland in just to wind him up.

Yeah, he’s totally impartial 😀

Erm, that was the point 🙄

It was in response to your apparent suggestion that politicians are biased but not academics, remember?

bencooper – Member

People are unreliable when they (1) are ignorant of the facts, (2) know the facts but forget them, (3) know that facts but prefer to lie, (4) know the facts but prefer to deceive the voters

So pretty much every politician, then?

Unlike, say, academics at prestigious universities who have to produce peer-reviewed papers to get funding.

Hence my comment : “Like Professor Adam Tomkins at the School of Law of the University of Glasgow?”

😀

No, I agree that academics can be biased – however they’ve got no intrinsic reason to be, unlike politicians, and without evidence you can’t say an academic is biased just because they’re Scottish.

So dispatches have you watched it yet 🙄

😆

which is it 1, 2 ,3 or 4 ?
8)

Where do you think they get their funding from Ben? You have watched the climate debate?

Why would Paul Krugman ever defend austerity?

Dodgy yS practices on C4 at 8 (phew still on the train for that) then Peston (“Welllllll Huw….) on the biased (!!) Beeb at 9
Even less to learn that “more Lance” at 9 on C4. Appropriate level of telling the truth perhaps? From a viewing perspective I reckon lance gets it just

You’re so deep into your own comedy posting style that this post is barely comprehensible.

😆 😆

I appreciate that KB as does the DO – he knows how to keep things simply untrue much better than most.

Have you never heard Peston’s reports on the news? Don’t bet a beer on any report starting without Wellllllllllll Huw……

Better than most but not better than you?
Your assessment of the dispatches programme is at odds with what it actually did so heal thyself rather than keep moaning about his deceit /misrepresentation.
Calling me some more names wont make your account anymore accurate.

Crikey, hunger really plays with the mind doesn’t it……it even starts to get embarrassing. Perhaps a little morsel might help avoid any more outings from under the bridge…..

Nah, missed it. Got in and the programme on Uni Challenge (lots of very bright people from elite institutions) seemed far more interesting and factual.

Salmond-esque degrees of misrepresentation to say otherwise Someone would be very proud!!!!

Meanwhile, in related news, more unsuccessfully trolling reported elsewhere according to the Torygraph

Alex Salmond has been accused of personally pressurising the body that represents Scotland’s financial services to drop a report on independence, The Telegraph can disclose.

The First Minister telephoned the chairman of the Scottish Financial Enterprise (SFE) last November and is said to have discouraged him from publishing a briefing paper on the referendum.

Both Mr Salmond and John Swinney, the finance minister, are also alleged to have rung senior executives of leading SFE member companies expressing their concerns about the paper.

A source at the trade body characterised the ministers’ conversations as “forceful” and said the SNP Government had been “trying to discourage us from saying anything” on the referendum

The SFE defied Scottish Government pressure and published a report that contradicted some of Mr Salmond’s most central claims on the country’s finances after independence.

AS must be getting hungry too?

Is that better or worse than the PM using the Foreign office to try to get leaders of other countries to support the No side?

@bencooper

One is trying to get people to say what they think, the other is trying to stop people saying what they think.

Is that better or worse than …….

What if it was the same, would that make it ok ?

I’m sure it would. What do you think ?

Is that better or worse than the PM using the Foreign office to try to get leaders of other countries to support the No side?

Whatever happens in the division of oilfields after independence, Scots should rest assured that they will be one of the world’a leading producers and exporters of whataboutery.

Interesting thread here and IMO a preview of future attractions from an independent Scotland, racing to cut taxes to attract/retain businesses. The fact is someone else is going to have to make up the difference or public expenditure is going to fall.

Oil Industry Tax Cuts Proposed

Whatever happens in the division of oilfields after independence, Scots should rest assured that they will be one of the world’a leading producers and exporters of whataboutery.

Seems like a pretty fair comment given that nearly half this thread is THM et al attacking Salmond for doing what every other politician under the sun is doing.

Crikey, hunger really plays with the mind doesn’t it……it even starts to get embarrassing

To repeat calling me some more names wont make your account of the dispatches programme anymore accurate. You were incorrect and you have no defence so you are left with name calling only. Your were wrong everyone knows it even you. the fact you do this rather than retract is pathetic [ literally].

Yes the SNP have pressurised numerous bodies into taking up supportive positions or not publishing/ highlighting overly negative ones on independence

I know this will come as shock seeing as you“chose” were too busy to watch the programme you mentioned but so has the UK government

So which are you here 1, 2, 3, or 4?
All politicians/both sides are a little bit duplicitous and pressure folk to say things that support their position. Obviously when china and Obama do this you highlight it as genuine support and just criticise the other side when they do it.

Some balance is required here THM and you are some way from it.
Claiming I troll and name call when you get facts wrong is an interesting tactic and one so tragic no t even the DO has done it yet.

bencooper
Only an officious moron would make Scotland leave and then rejoin agin in a year or two.

The delay before re-joining would more reasonably be 3-5 years, it’s highly unlikely it could be as short as 1 or 2, so such a longer delay doesn’t look to be the work of a moron. It could be that Scotland could agree an immediate transition or fast track but that IMO means adopting the euro, the full EU book of legislation and an appropriately large budget contribution. Given the relatively small resources available to Scotland in terms of manpower that’s a big ask given all the concurrent negotiations with the UK about separation.

@whatnobeer – AS is very much in the premier league of misrepresentation.