Orgreave Truth and Justice campaign Need Your Help This Is For The Miners

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  • Orgreave Truth and Justice campaign Need Your Help This Is For The Miners
  • crankboy
    Member

    Much as I am interested in this and naturally sceptical of the police what would be the point of a public inquiry. Most of this was sorted out at the trials of the miners . The news reports by the BBC were shown to have been edited to put the miners as the aggressors because “it made better television. Police witnesses were shown to be giving evidence about events which occurred when they were not on duty. Many books and documentarys have already gone over all of this ground in detail. The officers involved in the 80’s will now be towards the end of their careers the senior officers will be retired .

    Tell me a good reason to spend a ton of money on this and I will sign.

    yossarian
    Member

    Tell me a good reason to spend a ton of money on this and I will sign.

    Because the pursuit of justice should not cease because its dirty coppers being chased.

    grantway
    Member

    Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign

    Responsible department: Home Office

    The Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign – seeking truth and justice for all miners victimised by the police at the Orgreave Coking Plant, South Yorkshire, on June 18th 1984.

    Orgreave is part of the pattern of cover ups and lies by the police from many different forces, which are now being exposed. We call for a full public inquiry, to take place as soon as possible, into the policing and subsequent statements recorded by the police at the time .

    Orgreave truth and justice e pertition
    We ask that everyone who seeks the truth and wants justice to support us in our campaign.”

    TooTall
    Member

    My father was there. In uniform.

    You rarely hear about the nasty stuff that went on from the side of the miners and the activists. Funny that.

    There aren’t endless pots of cash to fight every age old legal case – that may sound harsh but we have vital services here and now that are desperate for funding to be effective to protect truly vulnerable groups of people.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    Find it hard to get excited about it – in-laws were there as coppers, neither side would come out of a full enquiry looking very clever.

    All a massive waste of public money going to the blood sucking lawyers, we have more current issues frankly at the moment.

    Junkyard
    Member

    @adjustable True but making sure the police cannot break the law and abuse their position is an important civil liberty that needs up holding. When they fail in this duty, and deliberately so we need to act.

    You rarely hear about the nasty stuff that went on from the side of the miners and the activists. Funny that.

    Perhaps you are just blinkered? That nonsense.

    One lot were paid to uphold the laws of the land, to tell the truth, honestly protect our civil liberties , protect us from harm and deliver justice and they somewhat failed in that duty and were criminal in their actions.

    Are you willing to comment on what you think of the polices behaviour at all?

    A number of these were put on trial in 1987, but the trials collapsed, all charges were dropped and a number of lawsuits were brought against the police for assault, unlawful arrest and malicious prosecution. South Yorkshire Police later agreed to pay £425,000 compensation and £100,000 in legal costs to 39 pickets in an out of court settlement. Nevertheless, no officers were disciplined for misconduct.

    mrmoofo
    Member

    Sounds like a money grab to me …
    As MCTD mentions neither side some out smelling of roses

    Scargill was as self interested as Thatcher – she turned the police into her private army. He turned the miners into his.

    BTW his pension is fine – but unfortunately even the NUM thought he was taking the piss re the flat …

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Orgreave was just the prelude for lies and deceit which South Yorkshire Police used in the Hillsborough Police Coverup 5 years later. They got away with it once so they thought they were untouchable. Which of course they were.

    Junkyard
    Member

    As MCTD mentions neither side some out smelling of roses

    Only one lot had a sworn duty to uphold the law
    No oner has actually tried to defend the police just say yes but the other lot were baddies. It shows how weak the position is if that is the “defence”.
    i think we all realise the police deal mainly with baddies.
    I think we should all be concerned when they cross the lines so they act like the baddies
    I fail to see how the baddies [ who got compensation from the police] will look that bad tbh though there was law breaking on both sides.
    However it is the coppers job [ in difficult circumstances] to uphold the law not break it because they were.

    b r
    Member

    There aren’t endless pots of cash to fight every age old legal case – that may sound harsh but we have vital services here and now that are desperate for funding to be effective to protect truly vulnerable groups of people.

    Yer, right…

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/12/plebgate-police-inquiry-cost

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    Everyone has a duty to uphold the law.

    Can’t defend coppers who broke the law, it was wrong.

    My opinion, and that is all it is, is that it would also be wrong to siphon millions of pounds of public money to the lawyers at an inquiry to rake over something that is now 30 years old. I work around ex mining communities here in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Staffordshire, and this post is the first I’ve heard of this latest campaign.

    Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for things then we might have the gumption and balls to take on and tackle the problems that are facing us today and in the months and years ahead.

    Signed. I saw some of the action at fairly close range in 1984, by accident and was horrified by the behaviour of the police. There was a lot of serious right wing agitation going on in those days.

    Premier Icon totalshell
    Subscriber

    give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough half a dozen times we ve replayed bloody sunday so many times no one can remember now who did what.. outcome.. not one person jailed or convicted of wrong doing.

    whats done is done live for today

    mrmoofo
    Member

    Everyone has a duty to uphold the law.

    Can’t defend coppers who broke the law, it was wrong.

    My opinion, and that is all it is, is that it would also be wrong to siphon millions of pounds of public money to the lawyers at an inquiry to rake over something that is now 30 years old. I work around ex mining communities here in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Staffordshire, and this post is the first I’ve heard of this latest campaign.

    Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for this
    Well done that man …
    We spend way too much time looking for someone to blame – it happened move on.

    Mr Blair seemed quite happy to “kettle” protesters … how was that different? And lets discuss the legality of the Iraq war …

    give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough half a dozen times we ve replayed bloody sunday so many times no one can remember now who did what.. outcome.. not one person jailed or convicted of wrong doing.

    whats done is done live for today

    Yep – we were horrid in India, we beat up the Dutch, and we made the Americans revolt. That is history …

    The miners strike is 30 years ago – what is the point?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    totalshell – Member

    give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough

    You got a problem with the Hillsborough Inquest ? The world knows the truth about Hillsborough because of the inquest, is that a bad thing ?

    Edit : I mean inquiry.

    mrmoofo
    Member

    You got a problem with the Hillsborough Inquest ? The world knows the truth about Hillsborough because of the inquest, is that a bad thing ?

    Sorry, I didn’t realise that you were at Hillsborough …
    It is great that the truth will eventually come out

    Junkyard
    Member

    Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for things then we might have the gumption and balls to take on and tackle the problems that are facing us today and in the months and years ahead.

    Of course brushing things under the carpet will help immensely with that and not holding those responsible to account will be yet another boost to your noble quest
    What else should we ignore to make things better?

    whats done is done live for today

    Another astounding defence there- I note you dont want to defend just ignore/forget now rather than say someone else was bad.

    TooTall
    Member

    Perhaps you are just blinkered? That nonsense.

    Coming out with a statement like that just tells me that you have your own blinkered views. If you cast views different to your own aside without regard, you are as bad as anyone else.
    At least I heard about the policing of the events you have such strong views about from someone who was there for many weeks. He saw many faults in the policing, but certain forces had cultural issues that pervaded. He also said that they generally got along very well with the miners on the lines – the activists (miners and in particular, non-miners) were the main problem and most miners disliked that as much as anyone else.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    It’s not brushing things under the carpet – comments on here indicate that I, and those with similar views are well aware of what happened. I know people who were on both sides of the lines in the miners dispute, and TooTall makes a good point. Any sweeping has clearly not been very effective. And I would suggest that any “unlawful” activity by the Police etc nowadays is far less likely to be left unchallenged for 30 years – we have learnt valuable lessons from the mistakes of the past.

    Our point is that – as a country and a society – we cannot afford the time or money to keep clawing over all the things that have happened over the years. We need to stop looking for someone to blame (and/or claim compensation from) and concentrate on how we sort out the problems we have now.

    I have miners on both sides of my family, and uncles in the north east shipbuilders. I was brought up near Corby and still have friends there. I remember when a trip to visit relatives up north involved going past miles of pits, slag heaps, factories and furnaces along the A1/M1. Living and working where I do now I understand how dreadful it has been for communities who have had their main source of employment and pride closed down over the last 20,30,even 40 years ago. Mistakes – genuine and criminal – were made on all sides over that time.

    But some communities have got up, brushed themselves down and got on with it. They haven’t kept looking backwards to blame someone or tried to make themselves out to be victims. They’ve MTFU’d more than many of us can appreciate and gone through all kinds of problems to move on and start afresh.

    And mark my words, the only ones who will see any real benefit from an enquiry are the lawyers. Shakespeare had the solution to that particular societal ill…

    El-bent
    Member

    Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for things then we might have the gumption and balls to take on and tackle the problems that are facing us today and in the months and years ahead.

    The idea is to learn the right lessons from the past. As Ernie said South yorkshire Police learnt the wrong lesson, it was called “impunity”.

    El-bent
    Member

    It’s not brushing things under the carpet – comments on here indicate that I, and those with similar views are well aware of what happened. I know people who were on both sides of the lines in the miners dispute, and TooTall makes a good point. Any sweeping has clearly not been very effective. And I would suggest that any “unlawful” activity by the Police etc nowadays is far less likely to be left unchallenged for 30 years – we have learnt valuable lessons from the mistakes of the past.

    Our point is that – as a country and a society – we cannot afford the time or money to keep clawing over all the things that have happened over the years. We need to stop looking for someone to blame (and/or claim compensation from) and concentrate on how we sort out the problems we have now.

    I have miners on both sides of my family, and uncles in the north east shipbuilders. I was brought up near Corby and still have friends there. I remember when a trip to visit relatives up north involved going past miles of pits, slag heaps, factories and furnaces along the A1/M1. Living and working where I do now I understand how dreadful it has been for communities who have had their main source of employment and pride closed down over the last 20,30,even 40 years ago. Mistakes – genuine and criminal – were made on all sides over that time.

    But some communities have got up, brushed themselves down and got on with it. They haven’t kept looking backwards to blame someone or tried to make themselves out to be victims. They’ve MTFU’d more than many of us can appreciate and gone through all kinds of problems to move on and start afresh.

    And mark my words, the only ones who will see any real benefit from an enquiry are the lawyers. Shakespeare had the solution to that particular societal ill…

    So those who may have had something done to them that potentially could be unlawful should MTFU and move on? And this sort of thing should not be pursued through the courts because of cost issues?

    Right. 🙄

    Junkyard
    Member

    Coming out with a statement like that just tells me that you have your own blinkered views. If you cast views different to your own aside without regard, you are as bad as anyone else.

    Saying a false premise is false is not blinkered.
    Have you a counter to me questioning your premise that is based in fact rather than emotion?

    At least I heard about the policing of the events you have such strong views about from someone who was there for many weeks.

    The point is [ how exactly have you missed this during your informed chats?] , sadly, we are in a position where we need to question the veracity of any police report. PS Its a nice appeal to authority but it is still a fallacy.

    Anything factual?

    And I would suggest that any “unlawful” activity by the Police etc nowadays is far less likely to be left unchallenged for 30 years – we have learnt valuable lessons from the mistakes of the past.

    What country did you grow up in
    Ps I think the goal is to have them not happen not to leave it unchallenged for 30 years – by which time we should all have MTFU and got on with it except greedy lawyers.

    Its quite hard to have a rational conversation clearly.
    Enjoy your night and yer beers.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    whats done is done live for today

    I expect you’d feel the same if you’d been beaten up then fitted up by the police?

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    reading this thread as a person who was greatly affected by the miners strike and it’s outfall.

    good and bad arguments on both sides, sadly though somethings go too deep to be forgotten I suppose.

    brokensoul
    Member

    I had quite a few days at Orgreave that summer. I saw some behaviour that quite a few folk on here would prefer to believe couldn’t happen.
    I don’t talk about it often, but as ton says, it cut a bit too deep to be forgotten.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    I worked on the CH4 docu-drama about Orgreave (played a miner) and i was struck by the still intense bitterness towards the police that the ex miners feel. South Yorkshire Police still have a very long way to go to persuade those communities that they are all on the same side nowadays, it will take decades to repair the damage i suspect.

    dazzlingboy
    Member

    This

    There aren’t endless pots of cash to fight every age old legal case – that may sound harsh but we have vital services here and now that are desperate for funding to be effective to protect truly vulnerable groups of people.

    and that

    give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough half a dozen times we ve replayed bloody sunday so many times no one can remember now who did what.. outcome.. not one person jailed or convicted of wrong doing.

    whats done is done live for today

    IMO. We have a shit load of problems on our plate today including ensuring that the police uphold the law without having to dig back through the history books looking for old battles to fight.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Thatcher!

    Just thought I’d get that in first.

    War is hell.

    Junkyard
    Member

    including ensuring that the police uphold the law

    How exactly will not prosecuting or even investigating the abuse by the police, in the past,help us in this quest?

    Can I have an explanation of why this may occur please?
    You may wish to reference the Hillsborough cover [ which happened after this event]up by the same police force in your explanation.

    Folk keep saying this but no one has explained why it would make things better to just ignore past abuse.

    Should we do the same with the current “celebrity” sex abuse cases? Many of those were even longer ago in the past.

    phead
    Member

    Nothing like judging the past by the standard of today, perhaps we should cut off the power of the people supporting this, that might focus minds a little better.

    If the people who have been whining about the miners strike for 30 years had put one tenth of that effort into rebuilding local communities they would have much less to carp about today.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    If the people who have been whining about the miners strike for 30 years had put one tenth of that effort into rebuilding local communities they would have much less to carp about today.

    You mean the Tories ?

    b r
    Member

    I worked on the CH4 docu-drama about Orgreave (played a miner) and i was struck by the still intense bitterness towards the police that the ex miners feel. South Yorkshire Police still have a very long way to go to persuade those communities that they are all on the same side nowadays, it will take decades to repair the damage i suspect.

    +1 ex-Yorkshire.

    We moved up to the Scottish Borders last year and I was chatting with the local Sergeant (our sons go to the same club) and he said that here he’s just another guy working in his home town, and is treated like any other neighbour. But what has struck him as he’s worked in other areas (shipped around to ‘hotspots’) is how few of the police he works with actually live in/on their ‘beat’. He especially noticed it when on riot duty with the Met.

    But then, the police have been moved up the salary scales and I guess don’t need to live in their old working-class areas anymore?

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Interesting that the “left”, having moaned for the past 35 years that we’ve stopped extracting non-renewable energy from the ground with the loss of jobs, earnings and communities and so on, are now moaning because the government wants to start again, with the consequent benefits for jobs, earnings and communities…

    Junkyard
    Member

    Source Whoppit please.
    Anad another example of “attack” as a form of defence?

    If the people who have been whining about the miners strike for 30 years had put one tenth of that effort into rebuilding local communities they would have much less to carp about today.

    Another example of a comment that makes no mention of the police behaviour and attacks others instead. Surely you realise your defence is weak when you wont even offer one?
    What a strange thread – not one of the “defenders” has actually defended what the police did that day.
    Obviously dont let that fact make you reconsider your position 🙄

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Interesting that the “left”, having moaned for the past 35 years that we’ve stopped extracting non-renewable energy from the ground with the loss of jobs, earnings and communities and so on, are now moaning because the government wants to start again, with the consequent benefits for jobs, earnings and communities…

    What on earth has that got to do with police behaviour at Orgreave, and the lies, deceit, and coverup, which followed ? !

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Another example of police/public interaction from the 1980’s.

    Radio host Robert Elms, when attending the Notting Hill Carnival for the first time with some friends, found himself outside a police line.

    When he asked if they could be let through to go to Carnival, the policeman said (and I quote):

    “Why do you want to go down there and join the niggers?”

    Have we moved on, d’you think?

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    What on earth has that got to do with police behaviour at Orgreave, and the lies, deceit, and coverup, which followed ? !

    Nowt.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Its spin to distract us from discussing the police behaviour which some seem incapable of doing on this thread

    Its a poor tactic of attacking some other issue rather than discussing the police behaviour on that day – its because they know they cannot defend it hence they dont try [ nor let that fact alter their view]

    Premier Icon sadmadalan
    Subscriber

    Please not another request for a public inquiry. I am sure the lawyers and the media would love it, but at the end what would be the result. Who actually would benefit from dragging up the memories of 30 years ago and discussing it in public? And because it is 30 years ago and because the hatred is still there would we end up with a public inquiry or a public witch hunt of the police and miners. Neither side was angels. You could argue that the police are worst because they should be upholding the law, but equally we are all responsible for upholding the law so you cannot reduce the actions carried out by the miners.

    At the end of the day – the police force of 30 years ago and the police force now are radically different. The mining communities need to move on and look forward, not backwards. An inquiry would stop the moving forward for another decade or two.

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