OK so it has been asked, and I am bored.

Demo’d a Five 29er black gold (£3000) at Glentress last month and a Gyro Pro (£3200 with suspension upgrades) at Nevis Range on saturday, and was just thinking about how they compare. Oh, I’m going to say 5-29er because it’s easier 😉

TL;DR- Gyro very 29erey, didn’t like much, quite pointless IMO. 5-29 very Fivey, quite good, not what I expected.

What they both do- they both come with horrible tyres, poor show Orange. Both do that Orange thing of jump-on-and-ride, instantly familiar and comfortable, which is great. Both pretty flexy. Oh and yeah, both too expensive but durr. Neither is a pleasure or a disaster going upwards. Both better going fast than slow.

Ride-wise they’re pretty different. Comparison to ST4 and Five is good. Gyro felt like a (failed IMO) attempt at an XC bike, 5-29 felt like a (successful) attempt at a proper 29er trail bike.

5-29 really surprised me. Turned out to jump like a mad thing, absolutely brilliant, agile in the air too- flattered me. Slightly slower to turn but not so much as to be an issue, you just deal with it, it feels really natural to lean it harder than you might a Five. It did smooth out bumps a bit but not drastically- all in all, it didn’t feel all that 29ery, which is good and bad.

I couldn’t get within miles of its limits though as the OEM tyres are hopeless. I’d like to try it somewhere harsher, with suitable tyres. But maybe this was fairer as the demo bike had the retail-spec parts. If you buy one, replace them, otherwise you might as well not bother IMO. I’d also love to try it on some proper slow tech, none was available for the demo but it’d be interesting to see how it copes.

Gyro is more of an advertising man’s 29er, it does feel more ponderous and it doesn’t feel as happy in the air and it definitely felt short travel when landing. Bringing it down through the woods at fort william was hard work, it sucked up the roots but it was harder to maneouvre. Ironically it was both hard to change lines, and hard to keep it on the one you’d chosen.

Climbing… Neither is light, and both feel like hard work for slow climbing. Riding them into headwinds was orrible. Get the speed up and both work better- I think maybe most 29ers without light wheels or tyres would feel a bit like this? The difference between the two isn’t massive though, especially with propedal on (both had posh CTD kashima shocks) On the twisty climb on the 10UTB route the gyro was a bit truck-like, I don’t remember the 5-29er ever feeling harder to manage than my 26 inch bikes.

Both are flexy as built. Despite the piss-poor tyres I still managed to drive the rear tyre into the swingarm on both in corners, bzzzzzz. You can see the swingarm tips bend if you push the wheel despite the maxle, but I think it’s mostly the wheels.

Tyre clearance isn’t great either even before it all starts moving around. That’s a blacker mark for the Five I think, it could benefit from a fat, grippy tyre but I don’t think it can carry it too well. Maybe with a better wheel.

The Five came with a Fox 34 but the flexy wheel meant it was a wee bit irrelevant, a bike’s as accurate as it’s bendiest bit. I didn’t find the flex troublesome though, there are pluses as well as minuses- but if you want stiff, they are not.

The other kit is all unremarkable- neither was very well set up, lots of excess cable and hoses everywhere, etc, which I’d expect better at this price.

In the end I just don’t see much point to the Gyro, it’s not significantly better than the Five at anything, and much more limited. If they still make it in 2 years I’ll be surprised. I think if you want an XC/marathon bike there’s better options for less, and if you want a more allroundery bike there’s little reason not to get the 5-29. It feels every bit like a first attempt.

Meanwhile, the 5-29er is a success. I wouldn’t buy one I think but most Five owners will probably like it- it’s surprisingly true to the name. People who ride the 26er Five as hard as it can be ridden might not, but for more average use I reckon it’s a good option. It’s the most 26ish 29er I’ve tried! With a few spec upgrades it’d be a good contender. I wish I could have ridden it more.

Oh and black gold + kashima = way prettier than my dowdy 224 🙁 Must… resist… respray… In medium, both were handsome bikes.

our local strava king demo’d a five 29’er last week.

absolutely obliterated all his own records.

Which bike is louder over rocks?

Ok, maybe exciting was going a bit far 🙂 but I enjoyed reading that; thanks. It’s interesting to hear how different the Gyro felt in the hands of somebody who can push it a lot harder than me. You seem to be saying that the Gyro felt more cumbersome than the Five29, despite having shorter chainstays a steeper head angle and a shorter wheelbase?

As somebody who never came close to pushing the limits of a Five and despite the lack of a background in advertising, I thought the Gyro kind-of made sense. It gives that same intuitive Orange feel that you mentioned. It climbed a lot better than my old (2006) Five, generally covered rough ground more easily and could still cope quite easily with anything that I have the nerve to attempt. But, I hear what you are saying and there is still part of me that says “just buy a damned Five and have done with it”. Maybe, with the Maxle rear end and an overall lower weight a new Five could climb as well as the Gyro and 140mm of travel with a 67 degree HA should give all the confidence anybody needs. Plus it will cope with tougher stuff if I ever get the nerve to try it, which does, as you say, make the Gyro seem a bit pointless. I still liked it though 🙂

The Five29 still sounds like too much bike for somebody that can’t get close the limit of a 26″ Five.

My understanding is that the Gyro is lighter for longer Enduro stuff but a bit skittish over the rocks and the Five29 is a bit beefer and heavier for but copes with going over the rocks.

jam bo – obliterated by how much out of interest?

12s in 3 min segment over his previous fastest time. whats interesting is I saw him just after and he said it didnt feel that much quicker. steamroller was mentioned.

http://app.strava.com/segments/1144287

I might have given the impression of being incredibly hardcore, I’m really not!

Also- noise over rocks, I didn’t really notice much. Then again I’m used to my 224, which is full of cowbells. Both had clutchy mechs which probably helps.

roverpig – Member

You seem to be saying that the Gyro felt more cumbersome than the Five29, despite having shorter chainstays a steeper head angle and a shorter wheelbase?

Yeah, and tbh I don’t know why that is! Something about weight distribution maybe or just how the suspension reacts, perhaps. Or perhaps just an attitude thing making it easier to push the five around. As a package the Five moved better on the ground or when jumping though, for me.

The Five29 still sounds like too much bike for somebody that can’t get close the limit of a 26″ Five.

Ah, hmm, well. I think they’re both bikes that don’t need to be ridden to their limits to work well, I don’t think the 5-29 is any less appropriate for that normal use. Might possibly be better- the 26 inch Fives I’ve ridden were higher spec, and not recently, so it’s not fair to compare.

Shows the importance of a test ride ultimately as it’s different for everyone. I’ve still not swung a leg over the Five29 but I’ve got an older Five (but newer than Roverpig’s). I’ve found the Gyro to be one of the funner and more nimble 29 FS bikes I’ve ridden (I’m specifically thinking compared to the very good Tallboy AL and Superfly AL)

That said, 1×10, dropper and nice wheels make a difference, but I was comfortably setting Strava PBs even in standard Pro spec that I’d previously set on the Five, Superfly and Tallboy at various points.

I think it jumps quite nicely myself, and I also see the point of it being a very quick singletrack riding bike. Also, it’s a good 3lbs lighter than a Five29 – maybe the bad tyres were masking any weight benefit the Gyro has? I’ve got a HD on the front and a 2.25 Nic on the rear and I find it to be no slouch for it’s weight and travel. Good technical climber too.

Mind you, I always felt the ST4 made a lot of sense once riding it 🙄

I think I’d have to say this is all purely comparison between those two- I haven’t ridden enough 29ers to compare wider. Weight difference I don’t know but the Five didn’t feel heavy and the Gyro certainly didn’t feel light. The wire bead rubberqueens on the five weigh as much as a planet though.

The Conti wirebeads are awful. I weighed a 2.1 X-King and it wasn’t too far off a 2.2 folding rubber queen!

Aye. No grip either. I suppose the theory is that people buying a £3000 bike are fairly likely to replace them anyway (I bought all my Specialized Butchers “used” from people who’d replaced them unridden with inferior maxxises 😉 ). But it is poor, I had a £300 bike from halfords that had better tyres.

TBF if I was Orange I wouldn’t send out demo bikes in this state- I’d set ’em up perfectly, fit proper quality tyres to let them shine… But I suppose it’s very honest, you demo exactly what you buy.

Self moderated.

I’m trying to be nice today. 🙂

Rusty, out of interest, would you be ok with your only choice being Canyon or Boardman and everyone else riding the same thing? And if that was the case, do you think those two brands would continue to be the same price they are now?

My fear is that before long you’ll only be able to buy a Canyon but it’ll be Orange money… extreme example I know but is the reality all that far off before long?

Although I suspect the reality will actually be Specialized/Trek/Giant following suit in order to compete.

That’s a shame. I was hoping that we could at least agree that a Five29 is only for those people who can already push the Five to its limits. Then I could take it off my maybe list.

Is the Five29 frame really 3lb heavier than the Gyro frame? Say you had a set of forks (e.g. those Rev RT3s that are being knocked out at half price on CRC and can run at 120 or 140) and some nice light but stiff wheels. Is there any reason to go for the Gyro frame over the longer travel Five29 frame now? In other words, if you put the same kit on both is there still an area where the Gyro would be a better option than the Five29?

If the geometry numbers on the Orange web site are to be believed the chainstays are the same length on both bikes despite the Five29 having 30mm more rear travel, which doesn’t make sense.

Is the Five29 frame really 3lb heavier than the Gyro frame?

Nope, but a Black Gold Five29 was over a Pro Spec Gyro. Factor in the Fork (which is around a pound heavier for the 34 Float) and the kind of kit you’d expect to run to get the most out of their respective qualities, that’s where the weight comes in. I run the American Classic All Mountains on my Gyro (which would be ideal on the Five29 as well and would drop a shed load of weight) and I sometimes run the Race versions if I feel like it. But you’d never even entertain putting the Races on a Five29.

Excuse me being dumb, but why not? The 26″ Five is a 140mm trail bike that can take a load of abuse. Some people built theirs tough, with 36s and all-mountain wheels. But others build them light, with 32s, light wheels etc. You could argue that they aren’t making the mist of the Five, but they seem pretty happy. So, why wouldn’t the same apply to the 29er version?

If you’re going to lug around the extra frame weight and tolerate the slacker angles going up, why run whippy, flexy race wheels which stop from from actually using any of the bikes capability going down?

Likewise, I wouldn’t run All Mountain wheels on a DH bike.

I’ve seen a lot of crazy light under-built Fives, doesn’t mean I agree with them!

Edit: the AC Race wheels are a 1450g 29er race wheel, they actually hold the Gyro back a tiny bit, they’d be way out of their depth on a Five29. Think Stans Gold Race for something similarish…

Ok, fair point. Thanks

Northwind: Climbing… Neither is light, and both feel like hard work for slow climbing. Riding them into headwinds was orrible. Get the speed up and both work better- I think maybe most 29ers without light wheels or tyres would feel a bit like this?

This strikes a chord with me. On my first ride on the Gyro I set off up the first hill full of enthusiasm. I was flying up and the bike felt great. But, of course, I had to pay a price for all that enthusiasm and when I came round to do the same climb for the second time I felt spent and the bike felt really hard work. Much harder than I expected, even allowing for the tiredness and the fact that the bottom gear was a bit higher than my usual bike.

I had a similar experience with a 29er hardtail that I tried last year. On a 5 hour cross country ride it felt great until I got tired where it just seemed a real chore to get it home.

I’m coming to the conclusion that 29ers are better above a certain speed (~10mph) but harder work below that. Possibly as you do more small accelerations at lower speed or something.

One final question for anybody who has ridden at least two of the options; what would be best for an all day big (Scottish) mountain ride; a 26″ Five, a Gyro or a Five29? I’m thinking all day in the saddle, lots of climbing and a full mix of natural trails; from long but simple landrover tracks to steep rocky descents.

Northwind: Climbing… Neither is light, and both feel like hard work for slow climbing. Riding them into headwinds was orrible. Get the speed up and both work better- I think maybe most 29ers without light wheels or tyres would feel a bit like this?

In my experience it took 5-10 rides to adjust to 29er climbing geometry, rolling inertia and the different gearing/torque. Increased speed on rolling terrain, rougher trail sections and downhill was immediate for me with the big wheels even on the first few demo rides I did, but the change in climbing style took awhile and not until I’d owned a 29er. Once you’ve adapted the advantages on climbs become obvious; this winter I was often the only rider in our local group clearing the slippery techy climbs in the mud/snow, and although still not the fastest on the long smooth climbs I certainly raised my ranking in the group. This was also on a rigid steel 29er with big volume tyres and heavy stock wheels, although I do agree lighter wheels make a huge difference on any bike regardless of wheel size.

Riding them into headwinds was orrible.

… Not sure this is just a 29er specific problem eh? 😉

Roverpig: One final question for anybody who has ridden at least two of the options; what would be best for an all day big (Scottish) mountain ride; a 26″ Five, a Gyro or a Five29? I’m thinking all day in the saddle, lots of climbing and a full mix of natural trails; from long but simple landrover tracks to steep rocky descents.

Have you tried other brands or are you dead set on trying/buying Orange?

A Tallboy running 120mm up front or a Tallboy LTC would be perfect.

Paceman – Member

Riding them into headwinds was orrible.

… Not sure this is just a 29er specific problem eh?

Well put it another way, I ended up riding my 224 twice up the same fire-road climb and it wasn’t much harder work into the headwind section. Just feels like once you drop below a certain speed you lose any benefit of the big wheels- it’s like you’re always starting them rolling and fighting the weight/size.

Fair enough Northwind, I see your point. I’d agree actually; in my experience 29ers have little benefit on fireroad/smooth climbs, it’s the techy climbs with rocks, roots, step-ups etc where the big wheels come into their own.

Aye, that rings true- I didn’t get to try the Five on much challenging climbing but the Gyro found a lot of grip despite the tyres. (with the gondola shut we did a lot of riding up short sections that aren’t designed for riding up!)

My Tallboy climbs like a mountain goat up techy steep stuff, finding grip where really there shouldn’t be sometimes.

Have you tried other brands or are you dead set on trying/buying Orange?

To be honest, for me, it is just thought experiments and the odd test ride at this stage. But, if I ever move from naval gazing to actually buying something then, yes, brand would play a big part in the decision. That doesn’t mean it would have to be Orange, but they tick a lot of boxes for me.

It’s one of the things I think I got wrong with my current bike. My Trance was good value for money and is a really good bike for the sort of general trail riding I do. So good that it is proving very hard to rationalize selling it and getting anything else. But I don’t feel any affinity to it as an object. For many people that doesn’t matter, which is fair enough. But I don’t race, I don’t have to ride a mountain bike at all. It is something that I do purely for fun. So, the bike doesn’t have to be the best. It doesn’t even have to be the best value. It just has to be the one I like best.

I also tend to the view that the differences between any half decent bike are so much smaller than the differences between riders that it doesn’t much matter. Just buy whatever bike you like best and ride it as much as you can.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, I don’t think the climbing thing is just a matter of smooth vs technical, but is more down to speed. I found the Gyro to be great on those short steep technical sections. The ones where you can sprint in and try to carry a bit of speed. The grip, the way it rolls over stuff and the way it holds momentum all contributed to me clearing sections that I’d never come close to before. But once you get past that initial burst of energy and have to start slowly picking your way up a longer climb I found it harder to keep going on the Gyro. Not always, to be fair. Sometimes when the rocks were just the right size the lower attack angle of the bigger wheel still helped. But when you get down to the speed where every pedal stroke involves accelerating the wheel from close to standstill the extra inertia starts to wear you down.

Roverpig – I agree about needing an affinity with your main bike, needing it to feel aspirational, particularly if you’ve had to save-up and spend a lot of money on it!! If a certain brand does that for you then that’s worth a lot IMO; and as you say, there’s not a huge difference between the top bikes at this price level.

A wee bit of an elephant in the room for me was the Whyte 129S- £2000, storming reviews, probably sits between the two Oranges, and too much in demand for me to get to try it. Cheaper suspension (though still quality) but competitive or better on pretty much everything else. (a reverb, ffs!) That’d be top of my try-out list, on paper it’s a corker, but no idea how it compares in the real world.

The T129S does look like an attractive option, but would mean another grey bike. Having admitted that brand is important I might as well come clean and admit that colour is important too. Actually the two are linked as a big part of the appeal of Orange bikes is the range of colours that you can get, which is presumably a result of making them over here. As my wife put it “if you are going to get another bike, it should reflect the joy that you get from riding”. Mind you, she was trying to persuade me to get a neon Pink Five with neon green rims, so what does she know 🙂

For those with a more rational approach to bike selection, the T129S has to be worth a look.

Makes sense to me, though I used Orange’s excellent colour selection to get a drab blue one, ah well. Neon orange or yellow next time!

You should definitely go for neon yellow. I don’t want too many neon orange bikes out there 🙂

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the point of the Gyro and whether it has a future now the Five29 is here.

The original Five had 130mm travel with around a 69 degree head angle I think (which I’ll call 130/69). Over the years it has got longer and slacker, so it is now a 140/67 trail bike. Lots of people obviously like it like that but I’ve heard a number of people claim that the original geometry made for a better all round bike and there is certainly now a gap in the Orange catalogue for a 120/69 bike, which the Gyro fills. This seems to be a quite a popular set of numbers for an all-round trail bike. For example, the geometry numbers for the Gyro and the Trance X29 are pretty much identical and there are lots of other general trail bikes (with various wheel sizes) that have similar numbers.

It’s a bit harder to see where the Five29 fits in as there isn’t really an established market for a 140/67 29er. It looks to be aimed at those people who think a Five Pro still looks a bit weedy and would be looking more at a Five AM or Alpine. But will those folk want a 29er?

Ultimately though, I can’t see why Orange wouldn’t continue to offer them both and maybe add a few more options too (650B anyone). Surely one of the big advantages of basically making frames to order here in the UK is that (as long as they are made by the same people on the same kit to broadly the same design) it doesn’t really cost you anything to offer a wide range of options.

I think the Orange Gyro is probably the more relevant and suitable bike of the two for the majority of UK riders, although they’re probably different enough to both be worthy of the Orange product range. Whether either or both sells well against the competition from other brands, wheel-sizes etc remains to be seen. I also can’t see many Five owners keeping a Five29 in the shed along with their Five, but Orange devotees might be tempted into a Five for the all mountain stuff alongside a Gyro in the shed for more XC/marathon type riding.

Paceman has got it right. At the end of the day, a Gyro is a burly build Tallboy and the Five29 is a Tallboy LT – very simple, very obvious, different intended uses.

There are other manufacturers with bikes in their range with more overlap than the Gyro/Five29 IMO…

The biggest problem for the Gyro will be the name, or more so the Five29 name. Maybe they should have called it the Orange Four29 and Five29, surely that clears things up?

I’m not sure it is that obvious though, at least not for those of us that struggle to understand what categories like “all mountain” mean. Maybe I’m just being dumb, but I still can’t answer my own question above:

what would be best for an all day big (Scottish) mountain ride; all day in the saddle, lots of climbing and a full mix of natural trails; from long but simple landrover tracks to steep rocky descents, a 26″ Five, a Gyro or a Five29?

It seems as though they would each have their advantages there.

How ‘horrible’ is the Scottish stuff you’re riding? The only time I would personally consider the Five29 over the Gyro is if I was riding Snowdon/Helvellyn/Torridon type stuff most of the time. Or, if I was after an Alps uplift friendly 29er.

I thought you described it perfectly with your 120/69 vs 140/67 observation – only the Five29 would be a pound heavier in the frame, the appropriate fork will be a pound heavier, and no doubt the appropriate tyres will be a pound heavier. So then it’s 120/69 vs 140/67 + 3lb.

For me it’s this clearcut:

Natural riding (in my case mainly Wales/Quantocks) that isn’t Snowdon etc level: Gyro
Trail centre/strava bombing: Gyro
Non competitive fun XC/Marathon riding: Gyro

Big arse mountains: Five29
Crazy steep ‘nadgecore’ (I’m talking about rideable but not walkable steep): Five29
DH on a 29er for the hell of it: Five29
Alps trips: Five29

Only grey area for me is probably UK Enduro… Afan would prob suit the Gyro, a traditional Inners course maybe the Five29, if you could get the weight down still.

I’m still really surprised by Northwind’s experience (although don’t doubt what he says as personal experiences are just that) as the Gyro has blitzed my climbing, flat and descending times set by Superfly 100 AL and Tallboy AL… my 2008 Five doesn’t even get a look in!

I should probably add that I don’t personally think the Gyro falls behind the 26er Five in outright capability until you start doing big drops and jumps, or in situations when you’d be bolting on a 34 or 36 fork/Lyrik anyway…

Paceman – Member

I think the Orange Gyro is probably the more relevant and suitable bike of the two for the majority of UK riders

On paper sure. But then the ST4 should make more sense than the Five for most UK riders too. So partly I reckon the Gyro’s days are numbered because Orange buyers will just want to buy a 5-29… But also I reckon the 5’s the better executed bike.

But also I think the Gyro probably has stiffer competition from elsewhere.

I guess we’ll see 😉 I bet one shiny scottish pound the Gyro doesn’t go the distance.

Oh- quick edit, in case it wasn’t clear all my comparisons were between the two 29ers. It’s too long since I rode a 26er Five to give a fair comparison- I can talk about feel/attitude but not really speed/capability. Also the 26er Fives I’ve ridden were higher spec- or rather, private spec so didn’t have the shop build shortfalls.

private spec so didn’t have the shop build shortfalls.

Yeah for clarity, I should probably add that my Gyro has spent most of it’s time in a ‘private’ spec.

I’m not sure it is that obvious though, at least not for those of us that struggle to understand what categories like “all mountain” mean. Maybe I’m just being dumb, but I still can’t answer my own question above:

what would be best for an all day big (Scottish) mountain ride; all day in the saddle, lots of climbing and a full mix of natural trails; from long but simple landrover tracks to steep rocky descents, a 26″ Five, a Gyro or a Five29?

It seems as though they would each have their advantages there.

I think you answered your own question at the end of your post 😀

Paceman – Member
I think the Orange Gyro is probably the more relevant and suitable bike of the two for the majority of UK riders

Northwind: On paper sure. But then the ST4 should make more sense than the Five for most UK riders too. So partly I reckon the Gyro’s days are numbered because Orange buyers will just want to buy a 5-29… But also I reckon the 5’s the better executed bike.

But also I think the Gyro probably has stiffer competition from elsewhere.

I guess we’ll see I bet one shiny scottish pound the Gyro doesn’t go the distance.

The Orange ST4 was nothing like the Gyro. The reason the St4 didn’t sell particularly well was the fact that it was a heavy and expensive bike compared to it’s competition, and it didn’t have the ride quality of the Five to compensate. From my understanding the Gyro was a completely new bike design from the ground up and has been pretty well received. It may or may not last the distance, we’ll see, but I don’t think it will be because consumers want the Five29 instead.

Did the Tallboy become obsolete when the Tallboy LTC came out? No, it’s still Santa Cruz’s best-selling bike. They are different bikes tailored towards different uses, as are the Gyro and Five29.

Paceman – Member

The Orange ST4 was nothing like the Gyro.

Similiar role. But the point I’m trying to make is that Orange owners who would have been well suited by the ST4 mostly bought the Five (heh, or an Alpine). And I think the same’ll happen to the Gyro- people think “I’ll buy an Orange Five” not “I’ll buy an Orange” then “I’ll buy the most appropriate Orange”.

And people who think “I’ll buy a 110mm xc-ish trail-ish 29er” without being attached to Orange I think will probably get Cambers, Anthems and 129s 😉

But I could be wrong.

You may well be right Northwind.

I personally think it was a mistake naming the Five29 after the Five; why not give it a new name rather than suggesting it’s a big-wheeled version of the same bike, and prompting the already likely comparisons and conflict of interest for buyers.