Viewing 24 posts - 41 through 64 (of 64 total)
  • Operation 4w/kg + improved upper body strength
  • scud
    Free Member

    I have done two things in the past, i have done the 12 week and 16 week program with

    https://mtb.fitness/

    Their program involves either a home program or i did 4 lunchtimes from work in gym opposite.

    As i have been working from home, i bought a turbo trainer and have been using Wahoo SYSTM instead of Zwift, all of the turbo trainer programs can be supplement with strength training, yoga and even mental training

    I have found the bodyweight strength training on SYSTM brilliant and strangely feel stronger working on weaknesses using bodyweight, than i did spending a lot of time in gym, as you’re testing a lot of the smaller muscles that assist with balance etc. Plus you can do specific workouts, for upper body, lower body, core etc

    joebristol
    Full Member

    I think this contradicts the ‘reps to failure’ advice doesn’t it? e.g. if you’re deliberately pushing to failure you’re hardly going to be maintaining form?

    Just because you’re going to failure doesn’t mean your form has to slip. You can fail to do a rep using proper form.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    I guess, I think I’d just seen the reps to failure thing debunked* as being needlessly risky and not offering any gains.

    *by Dylan Johnson on YouTube, my only source for training stuff like this so not definitive by any measure.

    didnthurt
    Full Member

    Thought this was quite well known.

    “Low repetitions with heavy weight increases strength, whereas high repetitions with light weight increases endurance. According to the concept, as repetitions increase there is a gradual transition from strength to endurance”

    High Reps vs. Low Reps: Which is Better?

    didnthurt
    Full Member

    Bit more reading

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Ok, got my PC set up now so I can have TR running at the bottom with Zwift in lovely 4k Ultra setting 60fps goodness as the eye candy 🙂

    Just did a ramp test on TR – https://www.strava.com/activities/7553487402 – which put me at 273w which I’ll use as a starting point. The legs weren’t feeling quite as good as on the test on Tuesday but it’s within 2-3% so I’m fine with that.

    Just used the plan builder on TR and that’s now all set up, starting next week with 2x 6wk blocks of Sweet Spot Base phase, then an 8wk block of ‘Short Power’ build phase, then an 8wk block of the ‘Gravity’ specialty phase, for enduro riding. All low volumes, but that may change of course, with the adaptive training (actually I don’t think it can alter the volume, ie add more workouts per week, but it can alter the difficulty/TSS/IF). 3 workouts per week for the entirety of the plan, with leaves me plenty of time to fit in strength sessions on the off days, 3x per week during the base phases and I’ll probably reduce it down later on. And I’ll still have time for outside rides, 1-3 per week I’d think.

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    First strength and TrainerRoad sessions of this plan done.


    An hour or so with the resistance bands, did a couple of variations of the main exircises; squats, rows, press ups/bench press, deadlifts, overhead press. It’s going to take a bit of time to work out the best method with the band’s, especially for the squats – I can’t do the best type, overhead squat, I just can’t hold the band up there for long enough with the amount of resistance I want. Over the neck/shoulder like braces put pressure on my collar bones so that’s probably not good in these long term. So it may be front squats that are the one I end up doing.

    Anyway, the strength session on Monday was good, I was definitely feeling it this morning!

    This evening’s TrainerRoad session was fairly easy, 3x 12 min tempo intervals at 80% FTP so 218w.

    I am a little worried that 3x planned workouts a week might not be enough volume, however instead of 4 or 5 planned workouts like on build me up, where I didn’t have time for anything else between the workouts and recovery, I’ll be doing 3x 1hr strength sessions and will have time/energy for an outside ride/zwift pace partner ride/zwift race or 2 which I definitely didn’t have room for on build me up!

    Hopefully my ramblings are of some use to someone – if only to look back and say that yes, low volume was the right plan to start with – I did say I’d be keeping this updated as I go along, it also gives me some accountability – I’ve said here in uneditable text that I’ll get to 4w/kg and so I bloody well will!

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Depending what your workouts are like, 3x workout and strength sessions on top sounds like too much high intensity and not enough volume for my taste, but YMMV.

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Depending what your workouts are like, 3x workout and strength sessions on top sounds like too much high intensity and not enough volume for my taste, but YMMV.

    Cheers – I’ll keep an eye on it, I can easily scale back the strength stuff to 2x days a week if needed, the TR workouts are my focus.

    I think the TR workouts might be not enough volume or intensity at the moment tbh, comparing TSS to previous plans, but as above I can always add a longer z2 ride to add some volume each week.

    This is how next week looks, each week is similar, 2x sweet spot 1hr workouts then a longer 1.5hr threshold/over unders.


    And my TSS over the past 8 months, that was 18 weeks of straight Zwift training plans up to the end of April.

    YoKaiser
    Free Member

    Keep the updates coming 👍 I’m debating returning to zwift or trying TR or systm. Be interested to hear your trainer road thoughts in comparison to your zwift experience. It does seem polarising if it’s the best way to train or not.

    crosshair
    Free Member

    Great stuff mate. Keep the posts coming 👍🏻

    I used to treat Zwift as a place. A place to do endurance rides, a place to train and a place to race.
    And training meant Trainerroad. Because the Zwift plans are not great. There’s a ton of smackdowns on YouTube where various folk rip them to shreds.

    In the end though, I’d find myself switching out an intense TR workout for a zwift race so often that the plan was irrelevant- hence why I’m not an active user.

    The workout progressions do make life easy though so I keep doing the maths to see if I’d use it enough to sign up again. But at the moment- the singular focus on a goal isn’t quite there.

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Right then, bump to this as I’ve just finished the first 6 week sweet spot base low volume phase, and I have my first retest in the form of a ramp test tonight.

    Previous stats were @ 30th July 273w @ 75.3kg
    3.63w/kg

    Today’s stats (pre ramp test) 273w @ 72.9kg
    3.74w/kg

    TrainerRoad AI FTP has me at 279w. I’ll do the ramp test tonight but if that’s accurate that would put me at 3.83w/kg.

    I’ve been doing semi-strict IF again, the weight I’ve lost has been fat and I’m nearly rid of the belly, just a stubborn little bit left.

    I’ve not managed as many strength sessions as I should, so I’ve now added these as a workout in the TrainerRoad calender so I’m prompted to do them. I struggle with getting into a routine if something isn’t set in a calendar.

    At 6ft 3in and 73kg I’m aware I really need to put on some muscle up top – had a comment from a work colleague (we only see each other every 6-8 weeks) that he thought I’d lost weight, and at my weight there’s not much left to lose!

    I’ve started zwift racing in the new Zracing races, once a week and I’m hoping to continue that – currently battling it out in the top of the last third in CAT B. Tough, but fun – and they don’t require a huge amount of recovery unlike some of the 90 min TR workouts.

    Overall it’s been good, the 90 min over/under sessions, bookended with endurance work have been quite hard but I think I overestimated my ability on those and jumped up to a harder workout than I should have.

    This next phase introduces a V02 max workout a week, which should be fun! 🤣

    I’ll update once I’ve done my ramp test later on.

    nixie
    Full Member

    Tough, but fun – and they don’t require a huge amount of recovery unlike some of the 90 min TR workouts.

    B pack speed can be a bit low (i.e. when you make it to 4w/kg A will be a surprise). For more of a workout I like to make them go faster by doing repeated attacks :D. Helps thin the pack as well.

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    B pack speed can be a bit low (i.e. of you make it to 4w/kg A will be a surprise). For more of a workout I like to make them go faster by doing repeated attacks :D. Helps thin the pack as well.

    Hey, I’m just trying to survive at the moment! 🤣

    I’m hoping my CP will lag behind my FTP and I’ll stay in B for a while if/when I do make it to 4w/kg, it’s currently 3.55 on intervals.icu.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Those FTP numbers look a bit optimistic to me if you’re mid-lower B. Ramp tests are rather generous IME, compared to doing a 20 min steady effort and taking 95% of that. The intervals.icu estimate may be more accurate. Still, it’s always good to see progress!

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Those FTP numbers look a bit optimistic to me if you’re mid-lower B. Ramp tests are rather generous IME, compared to doing a 20 min steady effort and taking 95% of that. The intervals.icu estimate may be more accurate. Still, it’s always good to see progress!

    I’m mid-lower B because I’ve only done 3 races in total on zwift, I’ve only just started to realise what sort of tactics to use in races. Unfortunately pure watts don’t make up for poor tactics! 😁

    In last week’s race I did 280w average over 25 minutes, 3.8w/kg – 281w best 20 mins (first 20 mins) which 95% of is 267w, just below my current FTP of 273w. I still had enough in the tank for a near 800w peak sprint at the end (plus another 5 minutes at race pace) so obviously that wasn’t an all out 20 mins.

    I really need to get better at conserving energy in races and making the most of my strengths – that’ll come with time though! 😁

    Edit: oh and my 20 min FTP test back in April was 269w so I’m very comfortable that my ramp test results (280w on Zwift & 273w on TR) are pretty accurate.

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Well that didn’t go as planned! Thought I’d had a quick warm up in zwift beforehand, but me being an idiot I got carried away with a couple of the hills/short sprints… And I’d somehow completely blocked out the fact that I did a zwift race yesterday which absolutely battered me…

    Ended the ramp test at 266w, which as I’d done 280w for 25 minutes a week ago (280*0.95=266) means I’ve either lost all top end power, or my legs were still not recovered from yesterday and I then put them through a few 10-30 second long sprints as a “warmup” 🤣

    I’ve pushed my remaining 2 workouts this week along a day and have put another ramp test on the calendar for Thursday after a full days rest tomorrow.

    I’m not expecting a massive increase in FTP, in fact I’d be happy with it remaining the same, but I’d like an accurate test and today’s wasn’t, based on what I’d managed a week ago.

    On the plus side, I set new PB’s for 20 second and 30 second power of 638w and 585w in my “warmup” 🤦🤣

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Right, attempt number 2 with fully rested legs and no silly warm ups this time.

    TrainerRoad AI FTP reckoned I was 279w.

    My actual FTP after tonight’s ramp test: 279w!

    That’s where I thought I would be, a few watts more than 6 weeks ago but no masses – it has been a build phase after all.

    Happy with that, a few watts gained and about 2kg lost, meaning I’m sitting at 3.83w/kg currently.

    Previous stats @ 30/7: 273w @ 75.3kg 3.63w/kg
    Current stats @ 15/9: 279w @ 72.9kg 3.83w/kg

    The intervals.icu estimate may be more accurate.

    So I hadn’t updated my weight on intervals.icu, I was still at 80kg on there. Doh.

    Now with my current weight it’s showing me (using Morton’s 3 parameter CP) as a CP of 3.81w/kg.

    n0b0dy0ftheg0at
    Free Member

    Losing weight, gaining power, heading in right direction. 🙂

    Have you done a baseline Zwift Academy ride? If so, did you get close to 4W/Kg for the Volcano KOM segment?

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Very impressed and jealous ta11pau1!

    I had started getting into a sort of decent training routine although severely time crunched. Haven’t lost all my job-stress related weight (crisps and beer most weekday nights for a few weeks 😭) but getting there.

    Have been derailled by usual core weakness and imbalances so am working in two strength workouts a week, although squatting/deadlifting 4 sets of 15kg probably isn’t many people’s definition of ‘strength’! 😆

    Problem is I just don’t know how to juggle strength work and riding! Feels like I could maybe do strength one day then Z1/recovery ride the next (I still get DOMs the next day so assume I need a bit of recovery) but this doesn’t then leave much time for a higher intensity session on bike (CX drills at the moment) and the longer Z2 I want to be doing at the weekend.

    How are you managing multiple rides AND strength workouts?

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Have you done a baseline Zwift Academy ride? If so, did you get close to 4W/Kg for the Volcano KOM segment?

    No, haven’t had time to fit that in, although I might try and do the baseline ride as it’ll give me some insight into what sort of rider I am, then ignore the other workouts and carry on with the TR stuff.

    I’ll see if I can fit one in next week.

    Problem is I just don’t know how to juggle strength work and riding! Feels like I could maybe do strength one day then Z1/recovery ride the next (I still get DOMs the next day so assume I need a bit of recovery) but this doesn’t then leave much time for a higher intensity session on bike (CX drills at the moment) and the longer Z2 I want to be doing at the weekend.

    How are you managing multiple rides AND strength workouts?

    So they talk about this in the TrainerRoad podcasts, ideally you want to keep your hard days hard and easy days easy – with the focus being on cycle training. Leave at least 6 hours between your cycling session and the weights session.

    When should I incorporate strength training during my training week?
    Getting stronger and getting faster both require adequate recovery, so scheduling your strength training on recovery days is seldom a good idea. Performing your strength work later in the same day as your tougher endurance work allows you to reap better training benefits thanks to higher-quality recovery. Ideally, separate your strength training from your endurance training as much as possible within the same day. For example, perform an endurance workout in the morning, then perform your strength training as late in the day as possible (or vice versa) without negatively impacting your sleep.

    For me, doing cycle training in the morning and weights in the evening didn’t work so I’ve been trying to get in 2x sessions per week – sat cycling workout is always a hard workout, 90 mins, over unders etc – so I put my strength sessions midweek – Weds and Fri, with TrainerRoad sessions Tues and Thurs. I don’t go massively heavy, I’m using bands and doing 3×12 reps, about 45 mins in total.

    What I’m probably going to do once this TR plan is over in early Feb (yes, February! 🤣) Is do 12 weeks of solid muscle building, 500 kcal surplus, 3-4 sessions a week in the gym, with a zwift race or 2 a week to keep my cycle power ticking over. I need to put some upper body weight on and I’ll hopefully put a bit on with the 2 sessions a week I’m seeking but a solid 12 weeks concentrating on packing on as much bulk as I (cleanly) can would be good. I really don’t want to end up looking like Chris Froome (amazing athlete that he is, he’s all legs with no fat and the skinniest upper body I’ve ever seen!). I also know that a good part of why I’m able to be at over 3.8w/kg is because I’m barely carrying any excess weight in my upper body were it counts for nothing in road riding/zwift.

    continuity
    Full Member

    The answer to strength training is less about micro periodization but more macro. Lifting should be all the intensity you’re doing up until like end November, then scaled back as you introduce threshold work.

    Of course you’re knackered trying to lift heavy and do 3* interval sessions a week.

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    On the resistance training front, the Trainer Road podcast did one of their ‘deep dives’ on this a few months back which might be worth listening to. Lots of discussion on how long you should leave between bike and resistance sessions and relative intensities.

    Are ‘bands’ effective?

    ta11pau1
    Full Member

    On the resistance training front, the Trainer Road podcast did one of their ‘deep dives’ on this a few months back which might be worth listening to. Lots of discussion on how long you should leave between bike and resistance sessions and relative intensities.

    Are ‘bands’ effective?

    Yeah, the basic summary of that was the text I quoted above – make cycle training the focus, and do your strength work the same day as your cycle workout if possible.

    The resistance bands are decent, the set I’ve got has 6 and I’ve not touched the heaviest one, it’s a thick bugger! Front squats, deadlifts etc all no problem with them and I feel them the same as regular weights. There’s more than enough resistance to go to failure. I don’t have the room for normal weights so they’re ideal.

Viewing 24 posts - 41 through 64 (of 64 total)

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