Oh Rolf :(

I did ask early on in the thread Edukator, how would you feel if he had sexually molested Edukator jnr at a ski camp? Not touch inappropriately and not rape but somewhere in between. He the would be convicted.
Would your answer still be “suspended sentence”?

I did read back a bit, but not going to read 7 pages.

Are there other crimes where being exposed as a criminal is punishment enough?

Iolo, If it had happened 40 years ago in a French ski camp it would be “préscrit” and there would be no case to answer so no sentence at all.

This is amazing. A guy talks about his experiences of sexual abuse, and there is a weight of social pressure telling him he’s fabricated it to get some attention.

Can we have a think about that for a moment, please?

Who mentioned 40 years ago? I’m talking but the here and now. Unless you had Eukator jnr 50 yrs ago.
What would your response be?

@nedrapier, it’s the lack of compassion to the victims and making Mr Harris out to be some guy we should leave alone bless him that gets me.
Not having a personal go about is past life.

I invite every member that reads this to read both our posts on this thread (especially this page).

Well I’ve read them and my summation is:

a) Edukator believes homosexual grooming was tolerated in the 70’s. Yet when alledgedly “groomed” himself didn’t tolerate it.

b) Edukator believes inappropriate behaviour toward children WAS tolerated but isn’t anymore. And despite the fact Rolf Harris did it 40 years ago he should get off lightly.

c) I can’t work out whether Rolf was in Edukators cycle club or not.

d) And yes your post about what potentiallty goes through your mind I find deeply disturbing – haven’t you been a teacher at some point in your career? I’m worried about that my friend and so should you be.

nedrapier – Member

This is amazing. A guy talks about his experiences of sexual abuse, and there is a weight of social pressure telling him he’s fabricated it to get some attention.

Can we have a think about that for a moment, please?

If this is in reference to Edukator’s claim that he was groomed by a homosexual in his cycling club who gave him a kiss when he was 15 in the 1970s, then I’ve had a quick glance back and unless I’ve missed something no one has accused him of “fabricating” the claim.

If it isn’t about Edukator then what is it that you want people to ‘think about for a moment’ ?

MoreCashThanDash – Member
[…] Other nearby European neighbours have similar different views. […]

I doubt you’ll find many European neighbours that tolerate child abuse.

Spain doesn’t have the same (IMO overdone) moral panic about paedophiles – here the big social issue is wife-beating – but that doesn’t mean it is in anyway accepted.

Edukator might have a trolly past which isn’t helping him here, but in this case I think he’s being candid, open and honest.

Strange things get tolerated by small groups, big groups, societies. Group dynamics can make people do things and accept things that they might not without that social pressure. Cults, religion, bullying, genocide. To say certain things happened at a school, club, nursing home, home for unmarried mothers that became viewed as normal by those people in it is hardly surprising is it? And yes, some people can push back attention that others feel they can’t. See group dynamics again.

He’s saying one society has decided and codified the idea that after a certain point, certain crimes become unprosecutable. He’s saying he understands that.

And look up “intrusive thoughts”.

You have misquoted/misinterpreted me and put words into my mouth, Kryton.

My professional conduct has always been exemplary.

and tbf, I hadn’t and haven’t read the whole thread. I can’t say that Rolf only deserves a suspended sentence, because I haven’t read enough about what he did and how he affected people.

I can understand the idea of prescription, and grey areas in what is and isn’t considered a crime, acceptable, tolerable by small groups and societies at large.

What’s your response should Rolf have attacked your 7 year old kids today? You seem do dodge that question Edukator?

I can’t say that Rolf only deserves a suspended sentence, because I haven’t read enough about what he did and how he affected people.

The good news is that those responsible for deciding the sentence probably have.

The good news is that those responsible for deciding the sentence probably have.

Yup. Hope so! Good thing too.

Also a good thing that those responsible for deciding the sentence are detached professionals, following rules and guidelines decided upon by their country’s judicial system, rather than some guy on a forum, having some other guy on a forum asking him how he’d feel if it had happened to HIS kids.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28102238

Prescription is an interesting one. I can see the argument that it could be appropriate in isolated cases, ‘one-off’, but I still find the cut-off and the severity of the crime covered a bit arbitrary.

With Harris it wasn’t isolated. It was over a number of years, while he was in a position of trust (or power or influence, not really sure how to class it tbh) and while building a career during which he’s amassed a shed load of money.

Iolo, did he actually attack a girl as young as 7?

Yes.

A guy talks about his experiences of sexual abuse, and there is a weight of social pressure telling him he’s fabricated it to get some attention.

Can we have a think about that for a moment, please?

Edukator might have a trolly past which isn’t helping him here,

I thought the same as you and it is hard to take him seriously in general let alone on this thread
trolls always take unpopular views then insist t hey mean it, bring up extreme examples then say they are true and get “upset” if someone suggests they lie

FWIW edukator he asked you how you would feel if it happened not what the law in France was.

FWIW edukator he asked you how you would feel if it happened not what the law in France was.

Trolls also don’t tend to answer questions that will reveal massive holes in their argument.

Yet more interesting developments…

My professional conduct trolling has always been exemplary.

FTFY

1/ I’m in favour of “prescription”, a legal limit to the time after a crime one can be prosecuted for it. I don’t believe a crime can be safely prosecuted 30-40 years after the events on witness statements. If you want to know more, do some research on the justification for prescription in French law.

This concept already exists in English law, it’s just expressed differently. The court can stay proceedings if it would be an abuse of process or unfair to the defendant. It’s not a “one size fits all” rule as “prescription”/statutory limitation periods are.

But even before it gets to Court, the prosecutors will have to be satisfied they have sufficient evidence to get a conviction.

And even after it gets to Court, the jury can simply find the defendant not guily for any reason they like, including because they think it is unfair due to the passage of time, because the evidence is so old and shaky that it doesn’t remove reasonable doubt, or because – you know – they just don’t think he did it. But the jury heard all the evidence and they didn’t make any of those choices.

Really I think you are banging away about nothing at this point.

Can there be a prosecution without a complaint?

Yes but it’s evidentially harder, for obvious reasons.

In terms of rockstars Bill Wyman went to the police voluntarily at the beginning of yewtree and was told he had no case to answer as there had been no complaint.

Smith herself confirmed publicly three years ago that she was 14 when they first had sex, and a decade earlier her older sister had called for him to be prosecuted.
“I went to the police and I went to the public prosecutor and said, ‘Do you want to talk to me? Do you want to meet up with me, or anything like that?’ and I got a message back, ‘No’,” he said.

It’s sort of a meaningless anecdote (apart from the takeaway that Wyman is not a good person). The police don’t have to tell suspects or random third parties anything about their investigations. If you ask them if they want to interview you and they say “no”, there’s not much conclusion you can draw. It doesn’t mean they won’t want to interview you tomorrow; it doesn’t mean they aren’t planning a prosecution without interviewing you; it doesn’t mean they have considered the issue; it doesn’t mean they won’t change their mind tomorrow. It just means they don’t want to interview you now.

Arnie is a well known serial-groper. Of course grown-women but every female within hand reach was fair game apparently.

The effect of what is done to a person as a child stays for life. I get the sense that this is just beginning to surface with Edukator.

In my experience, counselling could prove helpful.

From being a father, you realise everything you say/you are observed, everything. Children are sponges- especially if they look up to you.

My son copies everything I do. Its scary. You have to watch what you say, how you treat other road users, talk to people infront of him, how you react etc etc.

No wonder those born to smoking idiots are disadvantaged from the moment they pop out.

Back onto Rolf:

FORGET sexual contact- inappropriate holding, questions, suggestions etc. Children aren’t thick. At a certain point you get realisation about life/how things work- it can create a mistrust of others, authority and/or problems with future relationships for life.

Forget the sex-aspect. With that ontop, imagine what it does to children who turn into adults?

Though this may appear a touch off topic, given the links between Rolf and Savile and Savile and Elm Guest house, this is relevant, but if anyone feels like starting a new thread, fire away:

Leon Brittan avoids questions

When you say “links” do you mean they once met ?

What about the links between Harris and the Queen ?

Or Savile and Margret Thatcher ?

Or Kevin Bacon, presumably…

I’ve already provided the links earlier in the thread; do your own research…

Whilst you’re at it, you could investigate Savile, Prince Charles and Lord Mountbatten

I Like to do my research on You tube and the david icke website – where do you do your?

Mickey taking aside this one looks like it may actually have some facts behind it

Whilst you’re at it, you could investigate Savile, Prince Charles and Lord Mountbatten

Will do.

BTW any clues concerning who murdered Princess Di ? Or is it still the most obvious suspect ?

BTW any clues concerning who murdered Princess Di ? Or is it still the most obvious suspect ?

We’ll get to that, one thing at a time eh 😉

John Dillinger’s landlord, wasn’t it?

I am dismayed how Edukator has been basically accused of saying child abuse is acceptable.

It is perfectly clear the point he was trying to make.

The example of the headteacher in the 1960’s being a case in point.

It is perfectly clear he did not say that behaviour was acceptable but that it was tolerated i.e hush hush swept under the carpet, etc.

The example of his cycle club is also clear. The older members knew or suspected what was going on but turned a blind eye. This is tolerating it.

If you ask me it is not he who is trolling this thread.

However, I do strongly disagree with his views about a custodial sentence for rolf harris. I think it would be a travesty of justice were he not sentenced to time in prison.

to clarify – before I am subjected to the selective quoting barrage – tolerated more widely or perhaps seen as an unpleasantness that wasn’t spoken about by society.

I work with a couple of guys in their 60’s and they worked in local authority in the early 70’s. The stories they tell of some of the really quite outrageous behaviour by some of their older colleagues back then – well, it’s remarkable and wouldn’t be allowed these days and rightly so

You do know the troll has troll added to his name as a clue
IMHO it is classic trolling lesson 1. Say something personal no one else can prove [ that is extremely unlikely]- insist it is true , get upset if someone says it is not etc. Take an inflammtory position few will agree with and murder it to death.
If you want to fall for it then that is your choice.

I am dismayed how Edukator has been basically accused of saying child abuse is acceptable.

I am dismayed does not want to punish someone convicted as they have “suffered enough”.

and for those dismissing jivehoneyjive as a conspiracy crank.

There are now over 100 MPs supporting a call for an enquiry (on the scale of that carried out into Hillsborough) into organised child abuse in Britain with allegations that some of those perpetrators are involved in the so-called ‘higher echelons’ of British society.

David Cameron’s opening response to Tom Watson MP’s question was that this was a ‘difficult and complex matter’ or words to that effect.

Really? what’s difficult about wanting to bring child rapists to justice?