• This topic has 92 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 5 years ago by DT78.
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  • Nut allergies and primary school.
  • pedlad
    Full Member

    So a bit of something for you to debate because I can’t make my mind up.

    Pedlad junior 2’s school have been stressing since sept that no one should take any food stuffs in that contain nuts. There’s a child who could have a sever allergy.

    We’ve been adhering to it but today he got sent in with some sushi (I know stw peak middle classness but not normal it was left over)😀. We hadn’t thought about it but Someone noticed that it had sesame seeds and chastised him a bit.

    Completely get that this is a serious condition, possibly fatal.

    I just wonder if this a realistic stance? The food was being eaten outdoors.

    I can see that you’d minimise the risks at home. But to expect the school to be sterile when the rest of that child’s world isn’, seems ambitious.

    What happens if a mistake like this happens after the school has take position? Is there some sort of blame to be attributed to the parents?

    rene59
    Free Member

    PiknMix
    Free Member

    sesame seeds

    Are not nuts.

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    CountZero
    Full Member

    sesame seeds

    Are not nuts.

    True, but as shown by the Pret a Manger incident, there are people who react badly to them.
    Personally, I can’t see how what a child, or adult for that matter, has in their lunchbox affects others in the room, providing no sharing is allowed; some seem to believe that just breathing the same air can cause a reaction, but I’m deeply sceptical of that actually happening.
    It’s the school being very risk averse, and with people so willing to litigate, who can honestly blame them.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Is there some sort of blame to be attributed to the parents?

    Definitely. It might not hold up in a court of law but it will cost money proving it. Likewise it will cost the school proving it.
    Proving the kids world is sterile is of no relevance. Its proving the school is which counts.
    It isnt elf & safety gone mad what is relevant its insurers and lawyer seeing a profit/saving which matters. Erring on the side of caution generally dodges painful and expensive conversations.

    tenacious_doug
    Free Member

    providing no sharing is allowed

    I get the impression from our school that this is the biggest risk. Regardless of policies, kids share snacks all the time

    antigee
    Full Member

    I can see that you’d minimise the risks at home. But to expect the school to be sterile when the rest of that child’s world isn’

    probably because the rest of the child’s world isn’t is the best reason school should be – school should be a reassuring, anxiety free place for children dealing with allergies outside of school is a difficult and worrying experience and labels the child as different

    declared interest youngest: antigee is anaphylactic to walnuts and hazelnuts – reckons can smell nutella in same room and maybe her and our problem can become quite upset and anxious

    I’d also say that school should have taken up with parents not the child – children can help parents check what goes in lunchbox but shouldn’t be held accountable for errors

    Little surprised but guess shouldn’t be that a couple of the posts focus on the legal issues not the practicalities of dealing with a life threatening condition

    poly
    Free Member

    True, but as shown by the Pret a Manger incident, there are people who react badly to them.
    Personally, I can’t see how what a child, or adult for that matter, has in their lunchbox affects others in the room, providing no sharing is allowed; some seem to believe that just breathing the same air can cause a reaction, but I’m deeply sceptical of that actually happening.

    1. It’s virtually impossible to provide foods everyday that contain absolutely zero alergens.
    2. It’s only logical to exclude allergens that are likely to result in hospitalisation.
    3. If the school say “no nuts” you’d expect sesame is fine.
    4. Prets issue was largely the hidden ingredient – not highly visible seeds.
    5. I agree a fatal reaction from airborne alergen is very unlikely, but kids are not particularly good at isolating themselves: if someone ate something covered in sesame seeds how sure are you that none get dropped, no other child accidentally picks up a seed on a fork or gets in the wrong bowl etc.

    kcr
    Free Member

    It’s a liability issue for the school. They can’t stop someone bringing in nuts, but if something happens, they can provide evidence that they warned parents and asked them not send kids to schools with food that could cause a problem.

    batfink
    Free Member

    I guess whether the school’s reaction was reasonable depends on what “chastised him a bit” looks like.

    A reminder of the rule, and what the consequences of breaking it could be? Fine

    Anything a bit more zealous than that is probably going too far.

    DT78
    Free Member

    My eldest has a severe pea (yes pea not peanut) allergy and due to start school in sept so have been asking a lot about this

    Basic issue is kids share food and food these days has been buggered about so much you can’t often tell obviously what is in it. Example is sausages and burgers often have pea flour in.

    Most schools at junior age will have a member of staff surpervise the allergic kid during lunch and I believe food is not allowed at breaks (pea can also appear in chewy sweets)

    Having a kid with an allergy is very stressful, and them being out of your control eating is very very stressful. So yes I expect a school to have things in place to minimalise risk. And I would also hope that parents Udo non allergic kids understand and be as supportive as they can.

    It is far more common than you think

    mattsccm
    Free Member

    I have taught in many dozens of primary schools (18 years of supply) and most have something similar if this situation exists.
    Its always done in a friendly manner.
    What strikes me a strange is talking to the child not the parent though. Of course we don’t know the age or intellect of the sushi eater, the nature of the school, the chastisers relationship with said fish muncher, their position within the school and a lot more qualifiers.
    In most cases the parent of the allergic child has also realised that the problem and responsibiity is really theirs and not that of other parents and have thus trained their child to avoid much contamination by having school dinners etc

    DT78
    Free Member

    Agree you train them as much as possible to not share food and that certain foods are evil and will put them in hospital, pointing to little round green things is easy when it’s a hidden ingredient in a veggie pizza base, not so much.

    I’m sure the older he gets the less worried we will be about sharing but it is hard to be sure they don’t do it when out of your sight at the age of 4

    senorj
    Full Member

    Little J’s school has banned all nuts (wholehazelnuts!,(couldn’t resist)).
    I had to laugh when a dad brought his “organic artisan fruit loaf” for the Year 1 cake stall, I mentioned the nut ban to him and he said it would be all right and brushed me aside to present his efforts . He wasn’t so cocky when He was verbally savaged by two PTA mums who had overheard our conversation. They walked him off the school site.

    spekkie
    Free Member

    I don’t know anyone with a nut allergy so I’m guessing here, but do most people (when they are children I presume) discover they have a nut allergy when they eat something with nuts in and their body reacts in a drastic way?

    And if so, wouldn’t they remember what that was like and never want to go through it again? Hence never breaking the sharing rule?

    alpin
    Free Member

    I don’t see why the whole school should bend because of one child.

    The onus is now on all the parents to see that all food taken into school is nur free.

    If the parents of the allergic kid want their child to make it to adulthood then shouldn’t the onus be on them teaching their child not to accept food from others?

    If it were found that said allergic kid accepts something from another child and has a reaction, could the parents of the non-allergic kid be taken to court?

    I kinda agree with Louis CK…

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    If the parents of the allergic kid want their child to make it to adulthood then shouldn’t the onus be on them teaching their child not to accept food from others?

    How do you teach your child to avoid a peanut thrown by someone else’s kid who thinks it’s funny to “wind up the weird nut kid”?

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Hence never breaking the sharing rule?

    Kids are kids and the temptation of something nice looking might override the no sharing rule. Look at what DT78 said about peas (did you know some sweets had peas in them?).
    Or Perchypanthers example or a more benign one with a severe allergy of someone just dropping a peanut or something.
    It doesnt seem unreasonable for the school to try and minimise the risk. It would be unreasonable to punish other kids for having the foods but simply asking not to is different.

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    Well if my lad is anything to go by then nut allergy kids know full well the harm being in contact with nuts can do them.

    He has a pretty mild case and gets an unpleasant bloated stomach. But he can smell a nut from 100 paces and turns his nose up, … “Yuck dad!! Have you been eating peanut butter?” he say 10 mins after I’ve had breakfast.

    But then again my lad ISNT anything to go by because all kids are different.

    Age, intellect, maturity, confidence and of course the actual severity of the allergy will all play a part in how they live with their condition.

    They may be kids at school as young as 4 with food allergies … are they meant to protect themselves without help ?

    pedlad
    Full Member

    So alpin’s Comments are more where I was coming from. I’m not concerned by my boy being reminded about the rules but the school at all (so maybe chastised was too strong a word).

    My point was, is it right to have the school wide rule that enevitably gets accidentally broken. When that may lead to an incident where the parents of the non allergic child get some (non legal) blame with resultant guilt?

    Also where does this stop? We’ve had Pea allergies added here, then there’s lactose, gluten etc. How much restriction of diet for the 99% of kids. where chances are it doesn’t reduce risk 24×7 that much for that child. The education approach sounds more effective and realistic for all imho.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Are not nuts.

    Nor are most nuts. So?

    How do you teach your child to avoid a peanut thrown by someone else’s kid who thinks it’s funny to “wind up the weird nut kid”?

    They could check the other kid’s allergy to a fist.

    I know a ban seems a bit over protective but given that young kids will share and morons will see fit to throw nuts, it’s not surprising that schools feel it needs to be done.

    Drac
    Full Member

    My point was, is it right to have the school wide rule that enevitably gets accidentally broken. When that may lead to an incident where the parents of the non allergic child get some (non legal) blame with resultant guilt?

    Yes it is where it is potentialy life threatening. Well yes they may feel guilty but feeling guilty usually isn’t life threatening.

    ransos
    Free Member

    don’t see why the whole school should bend because of one child.

    Because that child could die.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    How do you teach your child to avoid a peanut thrown by someone else’s kid who thinks it’s funny to “wind up the weird nut kid”?

    Playing Russian Roulette with a bag of Revels?

    antigee
    Full Member

    depends how you look on schools – should be community where children thrive rather than training for the real world of nastiness – some of the points put above don’t differ a lot from “bullying man up punch them first” arguments ….as to Louis CK he is a professional comedian so his input is actually worse than worthless and suggesting it is relevant is a joke? – schools (and other places that deal with kids and their parent/carers) can and should try to control the environment for the safety of the kids (small people) expecting all parents/carers to contribute is tough but give it a go and the assumption here is that the parents/carers of kids with allergies actually care that much about the kid that they will try to educate them on how to deal with it – many kids don’t come from supportive families and school input has to push other solutions and get the rest of the parents/carers/mumsnetlawyers on their side

    DT78
    Free Member

    How did we find out about the allergy?

    3 trips in an ambulance and overnight stays with him attached to various breathing apparatus when e was 2 followed by a skin prick test at the allergy clinic. He nearly died 3 times. I’m not talking about an ‘intolerance’ which causes a funny bum and an uncomfortable child.

    To expect him to recall that experience which will fade as he gets older will be a challenge (we will never forget though…) I’m actually going to talk to the clinic next time he is tested about whether they can feed him the allergens in a controlled environment (ie. at hospital) so he can start to pick out what it feels like and potentially teach him to pick it up as soon as it comes near his mouth. He is too young at the moment

    I don’t expect lots of other parents to do things, just to understand the issue, the severity of it, and to help minimalise the risk with something that really is a minor inconvience, which if you didn’t could result in a dead child.

    There are many other things that we just expect people to do in society to make it safer for all of us.

    I do think it is sad that my child will be segregated from others at food times, potentially shunned as the ‘weird kid’ and possibly may have some social issues because of the allergy, but its just something we will have to deal with, along with the concern that he will eat the wrong thing and get seriously ill

    batfink
    Free Member

    My point was, is it right to have the school wide rule that enevitably gets accidentally broken. When that may lead to an incident where the parents of the non allergic child get some (non legal) blame with resultant guilt?

    Egh?
    Is it right: yes.

    Are you seriously weighing-up whether having an occaisional “incident where the parents of the non allergic child get some (non legal) blame with resultant guilt?” is worth it to avoid another child having a life threatening anaphylactic reaction?!?! Bloody hell.

    Also where does this stop? We’ve had Pea allergies added here, then there’s lactose, gluten etc. How much restriction of diet for the 99% of kids. where chances are it doesn’t reduce risk 24×7 that much for that child. The education approach sounds more effective and realistic for all imho.

    Where does it stop? Well….. do any schools you’re aware of have a ban for lactose? Gluten?

    Having a ban in place is an enormous pain in the arse for the school – they only do it (obviously, but perhaps not?) if there is a child with a severe allergy. “severe allergy” means a rest of death or serious injury.

    So…. I think what you’re asking is: “is it right for some people to be mildly inconvenienced to reduce the chances of some poor young kiddie dying painfully whist at school?”. Nice.

    convert
    Full Member

    There have been a few articles in the educational press recently with experts discussing if nut free schools are a good thing for kids with nut allergies. That one of school’s roles is to help students cope beyond school and giving them an environment (undoubtedly alongside home) where they can be complacent is dangerous. Probably more of a thing for secondary aged kids than primary.

    It’s becoming a problem however – the rise in numbers of vegan teenagers is significant and a healthy vegan diet should involve nuts. Depriving them of that whilst protecting the child with the nut allergy is becoming more of a conflict.

    batfink
    Free Member

    There have been a few articles in the educational press recently with experts discussing if nut free schools are a good thing for kids with nut allergies. That one of school’s roles is to help students cope beyond school and giving them an environment (undoubtedly alongside home) where they can be complacent is dangerous. Probably more of a thing for secondary aged kids than primary.

    It’s becoming a problem however – the rise in numbers of vegan teenagers is significant and a healthy vegan diet should involve nuts. Depriving them of that whilst protecting the child with the nut allergy is becoming more of a conflict.

    And I think thats all reasonable and correct when applied to older children. However, I think the priority for younger children is probably to keep them safe, and so allow them time to learn how to manage their allergy.

    DT78
    Free Member

    and just to prove why you have to be always on it if you have a kid with an allergy:

    Ingriedents for strawberry chewits:
    Glucose Syrup, Sugar, Strawberry Juice from Concentrate (3%), Vegetable Fat (Palm, Coconut, contains Soya), Acid (Lactic Acid), Egg White Powder, Concentrates of Blackcurrant and Blackcarrot, Hydrolyse Pea Protein, Flavouring

    one shared chewit at playtime, could equal my son in a very bad way.

    So I think all kids should be taught as soon as is possible about allergies and not to share food, before they are that bit older and can read labels for themselves

    Yak
    Full Member

    ^ this (batfink’s post). Yeah the world is big and bad and stuff will kill you, but you can’t expect kids aged 4-11 to get this right, especially with innocuous seeming things like food. There will be food thrown, there will be inadvertent sharing, a kid could get bullied into eating something. You’d expect secondary aged kids to manage this, but not primary kids.

    taxi25
    Free Member

    don’t see why the whole school should bend because of one child.

    Because that child could die.

    If one of my children was so allergic to something that they might die if they came in contact with it in school. Something that everyone else was fine with, I’d seriously think about not sending them to school and think about alternative educational arrangements.

    ransos
    Free Member

    If one of my children was so allergic to something that they might die if they came in contact with it in school.

    Easily solved by the school banning nuts on the premises. And bear in mind that some children start school with undiagnosed nut allergies.

    wornout
    Free Member

    he got sent in with some sushi … noticed that it had sesame seeds …

    Completely get that this is a serious condition, possibly fatal.

    Regardless of the school policy, and the admittedly small chance that something bad might happen, you’re ok with running the risk that a small child might die?

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    I honestly didn’t realise schools were banning nuts because of allergy.

    It must be horrible for parents & child, but is banning really the solution?

    In essence it’s conditioning young kids not to eat nuts. Also best will in the world, you might stop your kid taking a bag of leanuts in to school but what about the product that has a little amount in that you are not even aware of?

    DT78 – most recent research is actually to encourage kids to eat their allergen to increase tolerance. Obviously under very controlled environment of a hospital setting.

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    My kids primary school also have a separate lunch room which is for the optional use of the kids with allergies

    DT78
    Free Member

    that’s interesting about it being encouraged – is that because they think it maybe able to build up an immunity to the allergy?

    When he was last tested I was hoping it had got better, but the tests showed a more severe reaction so we also have to not let him eat lentils and chickpeas.

    Before hospital visits he had eaten peas beforehand with no reaction, so it is completely weird it just ‘developed’ so I’m hoping it can just ‘undevelop’ just as quickly. Somehow I think that isn’t overly likely

    There is no way we can expect a school to ban all food with peas in it, but what we do expect is raising awareness of the issue, controlling the sharing of food, and making sure kids with allergies are supervised at food times. Our boy is pretty switched on, so hopefully it won’t be an issue, but he is so young that trying to explain how a hidden ingredient in food could kill him doesn’t compute.

    Drac
    Full Member

    Before hospital visits he had eaten peas beforehand with no reaction, so it is completely weird it just ‘developed’ so I’m hoping it can just ‘undevelop’ just as quickly. Somehow I think that isn’t overly likely

    You’re not born with allergies they develop based on previous exposure to the allergn.

    avdave2
    Full Member

    that’s interesting about it being encouraged – is that because they think it maybe able to build up an immunity to the allergy?

    Exactly the opposite, an allergy is an unwanted reaction by the immune system, what you are doing is getting the immune system to begin tolerating something that is not a genuine threat. As far as I am aware this isn’t new thinking at all in other countries.

    DT78
    Free Member

    Definitely wasn’t mentioned to us as a viable treatment. his annual check up is in April so I will be asking. might be because he is too young.

    we did discuss ‘growing out’ of allergies which can happen in the teens but not how you could encourage that to be the case

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