it’s really interesting reading Jared Graves blogs, he was winning and podiuming in Aus national XC’s, his plan was to go so hard on the technical and downs that he could hold off on the climbs. Bearing in mind how insanely fit he was/is and how technically good he is. He didn’t win that one, the true XC boys were always just a bit quicker up.

I think this is the main problem no one actually can define Enduro properly. See how it all kicked off as a result of that Stage at the UK round of EWS. The UK needs to define what Enduro is, and that doesn’t have to be what EWS is.

Go ahead and define then…….No one is in a place to define what it is aside from race organisers, as they are organising races. If you want to define it, go and sort a race out.

Jared has also represented Aus in 4X (winning a world series) and BMX and has podiumed at DH world cups.
Not perhaps the best example of an XCer doing well in enduro. He does well at everything but his roots are in gravity racing (4X).

Not perhaps the best example of an XCer doing well in enduro.

Did you read it?
It was the point about how XC is run on the ups, he was specifically talking about that in a national XC race.

what’s a typical xc race lap? – 8k(ish)? 30mins(ish)?

No. Ideally about 15mins for the elite men, about 6km.

kimbers – Member

when everyone was bitching about stage 6 being too long at EWS Tweedlove this year I thought it was a good tough challenge, worthy of a world class event

Nobody complained about the length! It was that so much of that length was on flat canal paths and blue route. It was just a transition to broon troot that happened to have a timer at the start, they might as well have added the climb to the mast. Stage 8 was long- I think longer in fact? But it was also a logical, worthy stage.

dont get me wrong 8 was much more fun! 6 meant keeping it flat out for a long time before hitting the ewok village? stuff at the end, which wouldve been tough after that much pedalling, seemed like a good challenge to me, even if it wouldve absolutely shagged me

ahwiles – Member
nope, i was of course generalising, but you knew that.

what’s a typical xc race lap? – 8k(ish)? 30mins(ish)? compare the time spent climbing against the time spent descending, and you’ll get the point if you want to.

(hint) the point is this: Enduro racing, and Xc racing, are different things.

I don’t believe that I suggested they weren’t?

i was trying (badly, it seems) to drag the thread back towards the … oh forget it, i’m off for a ploughman’s.

is a shandy an acceptable alternative to a proper pint if i’ll be going back to work afterwards?

Bearing in mind our continental cousins invented the term and the format it seems daft, arrogant and typically British to try and define our own version of Enduro, FFS just stick with what people know….that is timed tech, DH type stuff with comfortable transitions taking in a good days riding.

Leave helmet concerns to individual riders, leave insurance to the riders and have waivers for the organisers….if you want to race then these are big boy rules, you take responsibility for your safety and insurance not the organiser, no one is putting a gun to people’s heads and forcing them to race stuff they’re not comfortable on.

At some of the European Enduro Series and the EWS they have had uplift services running to the tops of some stages, I was under the impression Enduro was like DH but by making it multi stage you take away some of the pressure cooker environment of DH with its single race run only format….the novelty of Enduro was that you could have a bad stage and yet still be in with a shout as there were more to come….that was it’s USP from DH as far as I was concerned, with DH if you balls up your run you’ve lost and it’s a weekend wasted, Enduro took that pressure away and created a nicer atmosphere as a result.
As a pleasant benefit of transition stages I suppose rider fitness comes into play more than DH but results from the EWS don’t bear this out as even Sam Hill of flat pedals and a dislike of pedaling got into the top ten at the NZ/Rotorua round and Wyn Masters got on the podium so either Enduro racers aren’t as fit as they think they are or DH riders aren’t given enough credit for their fitness.

Either way, a softer UK defined scene with a bias toward XC would see me lose interest, that’s not why I ride and given the popularity of 140mm to 160mm bikes I’m guessing most other riders winch up the climbs in order to enjoy the downs too.
Sad to see an organiser go out of business, the UKGEs I did in 2011 and 2012 were great.

I certainly wouldn’t doubt any top DHer’s fitness. There was a picture of Wyn at World Champs with his top off and he looked about 0% body fat…

In terms of defining British Enduro I think the key features which discern it from DH are:

1. Multi-stage obviously
2. Pedal to the top obviously (timed or untimed)
3. No ‘must clear’ features e.g. un-roll-able drops or big doubles
4. Pretty much ride-able on sight (linked to #3 – you know there’s not going to be some deadly feature around the next corner)
5. Lower average speed – owing to technicality
6. Certainly in Scotland a propensity towards fresh cut tracks which can turn into a proper clart
7. My personal view is that Enduro should be closest to what most riders ride most of the time

It’s been a couple of years since I’ve done a UKGE. Full-face never put me off – just the SES is handier for travel. But 3 days is a lot of time and would put me off a race. I like the SES format of turn up Saturday am and home by Sunday pm.

looks like there might be some good news on the horizon…

Enduro racers. Please may we ask for your patience regards requests for information on the new British Enduro Series. We found out on Monday there was an opening for a brand new National Enduro Series. A certain amount of time is required to set up a national level series. Therefore expect an announcement next week. Rest assured we will be looking to replicate the success we have brought to the National Downhill Series. Krien Dawson – BES.

I never meant it to be taken as change Enduro to XC, (I agree with 140mm to 160mm bikes being perfect for Enduro). What I meant is that at needs to be re-marketed. All the talk of it being hard DH type courses is unlikely to sell it to Weekend Warrior types or British Cycling. End of the day you need numbers (money) to support a race or series.

jemima +1

Yup, jemima nailed it – that’s the sort of thing I’d like to do.

Hasn’t jemima just described the Red Kite Enduro Series?!

deviant – Member

leave insurance to the riders and have waivers for the organisers….if you want to race then these are big boy rules, you take responsibility for your safety and insurance not the organiser, no one is putting a gun to people’s heads and forcing them to race stuff they’re not comfortable on.

Well, 2 different issues there. The first- disclaimers and waivers don’t work effectively in the UK, often they’re counterproductive since they imply that the activity may be unsafe!

But the other thing is that the rider insurance never had anything to do with organiser insurance or liability, that was just a red herring- it didn’t replace or reduce their liability. UKGE were still (I hope) fully insured, exactly as they would have been without the personal insurance bollocks. If anything, it probably exposed them to greater risk of legal action.

Ooh, looks like the Cornish Trail Pixies are getting involved with a Southwest Enduro Series…! 😀

BRAND NEW FOR 2016
on the release of the news that the UKGE series will not be taking place next year, we have decided to pop the cork on something that has been brewing for a while….

A dedicated Gravity Enduro series for the South West brought to you by part of the UKGE trail crew!

We aim to offer a series for the riders organised by riders based on the high standards you’ve come to expect from the UK series, show casing the very best riding the South West has to offer.

keep an eye out for upcoming announcements on our race format, sponsors, prizes, dates and venues in the coming weeks!

like our facebook page South West Gravity Enduro

and follow us on Twitter @SWgravityenduro

Website coming soon

Oy Hels and MC, fancy running a national series?

Oh I do like a good laugh, but last I checked, frozen over wasn’t in any forecasts.

From something said previously here is the setup for XCM in Oz
https://xcmnats.wordpress.com/
7 rounds, races put on by different organisers but brought together under one series, much less work for a central team and each group can make their race the best. Seeing as there are so many individual organisers about there it could work.

“Oy Hels and MC, fancy running a national series?

Oh I do like a good laugh, but last I checked, frozen over wasn’t in any forecasts.”

Yes that is all very nice of you to suggest Northwind and I am flattered, but I did my bit and I think Innerleithen MTB ran its course. It was fun and we all (there must have been 20 odd committee members over the years)did some great team work, and moved the sport forward but those days are over ! MC clearly feels the same way. We both help out quite a lot with Tweedlove these days which is a much less scary commitment or responsibility.

I think the range of organisers putting on events that tie together as a series is a great idea, but can be difficult in practice, especially when commercial organisers are involved. Their imperatives are different, and IME are not as open to “how about we all run the same categories and schedule to make it easier for the riders”.

It does need some central control, and with that comes rules and committees, and people having to run things not quite how they want to, not according to their business model etc etc. Not un-doable, just needs more grown-ups !

For example – I attempted to standardise the weekend schedule for SES events the first year. I might as well have been speaking French. And that was just two sets of organisers in the mix.

MC clearly feels the same way

Only towards those who destroyed it, but at least some of us know when to stop flogging a dead horse and at least not use it on event entries 😉

Yeah well I kind of lack imagination when it comes to team names MC ! And I still have a bunch of t-shirts, hoodies and cycling tops, which I guess will eventually wear out, and I will have to think of a new team name for that field on the race entry form.

So now we have, and i’m sure there are more so add them in:

Scottish enduro series
PMBA
Welsh enduro series
Welsh Gravity enduro series
Red Kite Enduro
South west enduro series
Southern Enduro series
Enduro1 Series
Mini Enduro
Ard Rock events
No Fuss events
Tweedlove (there will still be an enduro race, just not EWS)
QECP enduros
Potential British Enduro series.

And i must have missed some, these are just off the top of my head. I haven’t included and North or republic of Ireland races.

Slightly out of control, and needs some direction potentially. The more races the better, and gives more choice. Also, now there is a good even spread amongst most areas of the UK. But unless there is some direction from BC/UCI or something, it may not be the best way for the sport to develop.

I know it’s been mentioned a few times, but I genuinely think the best way for a national series to operate would be to have a round within various of the above races every year. So essentially you have regional and national races, creating a form of structure. It means you could spread it more fairly geographically as well: SE/SW/NE/NW England, then maybe two welsh and Scottish rounds. 6-8 races in a series sounds sensible.

Why is everyone* so utterly obsessed with “developing the sport”?

Slightly out of control, and needs some direction potentially.

Why? I don’t get it. It doesn’t have to be a serious thing, indeed making it more so will probably make it less attractive to casuals.

I like the haphazard feel to it, it’s quite in keeping with MTBing and MTBers. Leave the categories, rankings, points etc to the roadies.

You missed NDH in the North East (England).

I’m sure natural selection will sort out which series go forward in the future a bit like UKGE.

The UKGE is a prime example of how not to run a series

Wrecker – the reason why we have so much success in DH as a country is down to properly organised series, such as Pearce rounds as regional, and BDS as national.

Whilst I agree with you, the regional series are there for a more friendly approach, whereas a national series is there to help the guys compete at a higher level, and step up to the international series if possible.

Exactly. National series should be challenging. We all have the bikes and most of us ride difficult stuff as often as we can.

the courses being challenging had nothing to do with numbers being down at UKGE. Numbers werent an issue last year or the year before and courses were same sort of level (they weren’t that hard – many of us are ex DH’ers anyway and more than capable).

The problem is the people doing single events being priced out of it when there are many other series for far less money – even if they are only half a day (ukge seems fair value tbh but it is still more).

It got a lot of negativity about it and the way paying customers are treated is a bit of a joke.

But it is appreciated tht taking on such an event isn’t easy and ukge should be thanked.

Wrecker – the reason why we have so much success in DH as a country is down to properly organised series, such as Pearce rounds as regional, and BDS as national.

Does France or australia have regional > National > world enduro pathways?
It’s all getting too serious, and casual riders (who make up the majority) will stay away (as UKGE have found).

We all have the bikes and most of us ride difficult stuff as often as we can.

courses were same sort of level (they weren’t that hard – many of us are ex DH’ers anyway and more than capable).

I think you’ll find this was UKGE’s opinion too……and it worked out well for them.
STW is pretty much the core market…..and I don’t think there are a high percentage of ex DHing gnarl slayers on here tbh.

Wrecker – the reason why we have so much success in DH as a country is down to properly organised series, such as Pearce rounds as regional, and BDS as national.
Whilst I agree with you, the regional series are there for a more friendly approach, whereas a national series is there to help the guys compete at a higher level, and step up to the international series if possible.

This.

If you want fun, low pressure, low key Enduros then enter regional one day events….but if you want to challenge yourself, if you want to see promising youngsters able to make a career out of racing Enduro then you need a national series to challenge, stretch and ultimately prepare riders for the step up to the European or World Enduro Series.

I appreciate this isn’t for everybody, so keep supporting the grass roots stuff instead but it would be good if Si Paton of the BDS decides to run a BES too….I would think provided the insurance issue is dropped, helmet decisions are left to riders alone and the pricing is sensible then it should flourish.

Does France or australia have regional > National > world enduro pathways?

We have had 1 year of enduro proper here in Oz, few mates done some of them and they look good, we have had 1 here in Tassie and we have a guy was was placing really highly in EWS rd 1.
We are just getting our own regional series well 3 rds 1 about as tame as you can get and the other 2 nothing like you would find in EWS or even off piste Tween Valley. That and doing a national series here is as easy as doing 6 races on the continent,

The fast guys here cut their teeth racing DH and XC, ie being really fit and really technical

I don’t think the failure of the UKGE series has anything to do with difficulty of tracks though. Numbers were fine over the past few years and the level of difficulty hasn’t really changed. As MTB’ers we push ourselves or we would all still be riding fire roads… I dont think it’s an argument.

It is simply due to how much it costs for a one off event… £90 including insurance and full face if you havent got one. Plus they have been massive treks to get to this year.

I dont think the courses being too hard was the problem, any features had chicken runs, and as said it was the insurance and how that was handled that was the major factor.
The tech level has been stepped up a bit this year but the 1st round had 300 participants and that was by far the easiest

A national series really ought to be challenging or you wont see any progression, plenty of casual riders were coming along before the insurance issues, selling out in minutes etc

Low numbers, werent the only issue,
Steve has taken a break because hes got a new daughter and wants to enjoy life, without a load of abuse on the internet, I think he took all the ‘ I hope the series does fail’ comments on here from the start of of the year to heart and looking at some of the ‘LOL comments’ under his article at pinkbike, cant say as I blame him.

A National Series, whilst not essential given the amount of choice racers have, is definitely a good thing. It should be more demanding than other series and, by virtue of this, will, and should, attract the UK’s better riders.

The level of competition in events I’ve entered has been top drawer; it is easy to predict the top 20-30% of the field before anyone has made a pedal stroke. I know I’m not ever going to get to mix it with the top guys – I don’t have the time in my life to commit to training that hard – but I know where my place is in the field.

If we don’t have a National Series, the Regional events are only going to become more crowded generally and have a greater proportion of top riders. That means your average Joe will be knocked even further down the field (if they get an entry at all as max numbers will still apply) which may then have the detrimental effect of them losing interest. The stages will either become more sanitised to cater for the broader field, or become harder to meet the demands of the elite and, with that we are then back to the whole issue of full face / insurance etc.

Competitive sport works best when it is tiered. And a National Series is key to not only keeping the Enduro discipline in the UK alive and kicking, but it is the best way of keeping it accessible for everyone.

I was at the top of the BDS track at Llangollen last night, in awe of the brutality and technicality of the top section. It is the BDS track for a reason and its completely right that it is only raced on at the UK’s top DH event. That it is also the reason the UK does so well at World DH level says everything about why you need a top tier event in any field and also sums up beautifully why the UK needs to embrace all levels of mountain biking; we have such amazingly varied terrain that can cater for all levels of abilities.

I think it depends what a National Series aims to do, if you know what I mean. One of the purposes of the current SC/BC/UCI National Series in DH and XC etc is to provide a stepping stone and higher level of competition and points etc to qualify for World Cup events. At the top of Enduro you have EWS which is a corporation, and AFAIK (I am sure somebody will jump in if I am wrong) nobody allocates points for EWS except EWS ?

Or to paraphrase Mrs Cooper – you can bake kittens in the oven but that doesn’t make them biscuits. Or something…