Retalionation?

Is that like retaliation but with extra lion? Harsh…

Many of us have had great benefit from the NHS and a good few of us have been very badly let down.

The problem is that a large number of the ones who feel badly let down are the ones who call ambulances because they’ve got hayfever or can’t get an appointment immediately with their GP to get their cold checked. Sadly many of these people shout loudly about it.
As is almost always the case, the people who get less than perfect service shout loudest as this forum regularly shows.

That’s not to say that some people have been very badly let down by the NHS, no-one will deny that. This must stop and constantly reorganising it every 4 or 5 years when a different party is put into power will never achieve this. Sadly I’ve no idea how they can prevent this from happening as its always easy for politicians to score points by using the NHS.

there are a whole tranch of idiots running hospitals…. and when they get caught screwing up or manipulating figures they get moved aside or paid off very well.

And there are fantastioc staff who go the extra bit to help patients, who try and fight for better facilities, yet theyre ignored or troden upon.
some even had a pervert working for them Jimmy saville
As usual you went overboard with the present it as badly as possible hyperbole as my meter just broke – its dostortion to the point of lies you are doing.

For some reason complaining about poor service in the nhs is seenn as so wrong.Even when somebody has died.

I cannot see anyone arguing it is wrong to criticise what they are doing Some seem to be suggesting that we do not use those examples of poor service to suggest that all the NHS is shite and also suggesting other reasons and possible solutions

These threads just descend into the usual suspects using any NHS thread to simply attack the entire structure due to a bad [ terrible ] personal experience.

I have no desire to defend what happened in all circumstances nor do I have any desire to attack everything

I am sorry for the loss you have suffered and wish I could help you with your suffering

I am not sure that doing this helps tbh but I would imagine were the situations reversed it is what i would be doing

there are a whole tranch of idiots running hospitals, some who shouldnt be allowed to run a car wash, yet they get huge salaries

What do you class as a huge salry? Honestly I am intrigued.

The fact is that the senior managers in Trust are not anything like as well paid as leaders in private industry. Pay people poor salaries, and you wont attract the best people.

Oh and not all are idiots, in fact I doubt very few are (yes there may be some incompetent ones) At individual Trust level, the Directors hands are very heavily tighed and they only have so much cash/resources to do things, which is prescribed to them from Whitehall downwards.

and when they get caught screwing up or manipulating figures

Thats the point often the manipulation of figures comes from above (ie eventually Whitehall) and senior managers have no choice but to change figures as they are told they could possible not be in that situation etc.

They seem to be going about it remarkably quicker than pledged though, don’t they? What was it ****face said before the election? “I’ll cut the deficit, NOT the NHS”

Which bit of NOT do you thick Tories not understand?

Ok, two quick questions for you:

i) which parts of the NHS have been privatised since May 2010?

ii) How much has NHS spending reduced, in either fiscal or real terms, since May 2010 (the infamous cuts!)?

ninfan NHS budget has increased by 0.1% so no cuts at all, however

http://fullfact.org/articles/NHS_budget_health_spending_statistics-28697

during the biggest reorganisation in the services history that means that costs will inevitably go up in the short term at least

just look at the NHS111 debacle (and that also answers your first point- and the owner of harmoni/care uk, one of the biggest 111 providers, made a 21k donation to the previous health secretaries office )

“The problem is that a large number of the ones who feel badly let down are the ones who call ambulances because they’ve got hayfever or can’t get an appointment immediately with their GP to get their cold checked. Sadly many of these people shout loudly about it.”

You really have no idea on how bad it’s been for some. When it happens to you I presume you’ll be a happy to be an anonymous statistic.

ninfan NHS budget has increased by 0.1% so no cuts at all

The total NHS budget may not have been cut, but certainly secondary car (hospitals) have seen there budgets cut. Its all about providing care closer to home, and targeting primary care, rather treating people AFTER they become ill. All decisions made at National level to move funding away from Secondary Care.

So certainly for the last 3 years I know that Secondary Care Trusts in my area have seen there budgets cut in real terms.

Then there is the fact that hospitals are seeing year on year increases in activity. Again this is not being funded.

All in all this means that in real terms hospital fuding will have gone down significantly, but of course this will never be reported.

You’re saying that shifting the emphasis to primary care is a bad thing?

ii) How much has NHS spending reduced, in either fiscal or real terms, since May 2010 (the infamous cuts!)?

You’re not really getting this, are you? The ‘cuts’ aren’t the point. I doubt they have any intention of cutting the amount of money they put into the NHS. On the contrary, I can see it going up massively in the immediate future.

Because what they’re doing is restructuring, and putting into place a system where all that money will be going to very different places/people.

At the moment it goes into frightful stuff like having to pay people reasonable wages (well… above minimum wage), decent standards of car (in the majority of cases). That kind of thing. Rubbish eh?

Very little of it is going directly into shareholders pockets. Imagine that! A huge amount of public spending like the NHS! And the MP’s friends (and donors) don’t have open access to pillage all those vast taxpayer-funded budgets at will, G4S/Virgin Rail subsidy and Serco style

Don’t worry. That’s all about to change

Because what they’re doing is restructuring,

Given what happened in Stafford, allied with the results of the Keogh report, do you not think thats overdue and entirely necessary?

Its a simple question though: will it improve things?

If you want to list the things that privatisation has improved, I’m all ears

Look at the rail service. Privatised. Its a shambles. Taxpayers pour billions upon billions into it in subsidies. Vastly more than was ever spent when it was nationalised. Yet look at the ticket prices. Again vastly increased fares, rising consistently, every year, far above inflation.

Richard Branson has referred to his West Coast mainline franchise as ‘a license to print money’. Because he can’t lose. He’ll always make a profit. The mugs taxpayer simply pays for all the infrastructure etc, while he creams it all off for delivering a minimal service at hugely inflated costs

And look who’s queuing up to get some of the healthcare action? Is that a beard, a smile and an unbelievable nose for sniffing out taxpayer-subsidised profits I see?

You’re saying that shifting the emphasis to primary care is a bad thing?

No not at all. It is good that emphasis goes in to prevention etc. But your talking a generation to make that kind of change, so in the mean time people will keep on turning up to secondary care in increasing numbers, yet there isnt the funding to support it.

I dont however, personally think its that simple anyhow. People like to make themselves ill ie substance abuse, sports, fatties etc. Changing culture is very hard. Then there is the fact that modern medicine keeps people alive for longer, which cost more money.

Edit: I know that PCT’s have made a big effort over the last few years to modify behaviour of at risk groups to reduce reliance on Secondary Care, and I know for a fact, and to the disapointment of the health professionals involved, it has had little or zero impact.

ninfan – Member
Because what they’re doing is restructuring,
Given what happened in Stafford, allied with the results of the Keogh report, do you not think thats overdue and entirely necessary?

thats 12 out of 350 hospitals in the NHS that have serious problems

thats 12 out of 350 hospitals in the NHS that have serious problems

that have been caught failing, yet there are more, and dont forge those trusts have more hospitals and clinics etc that also have the same senior management.

Just perhaps if one of your family members had to suffer being refused water,a bath,decent food,staff that could read the large poster stuck to the top of the bed saying THIS LADY IS REGISTERED BLIND SHE NEEDS HELP TO FEED HERSELF.and just dumped food out of her reach and then took it away uneaten,patients with bed sores going untreated, patiernts with MRSA, not being treated properley,a filthy side room she was eventually put into, that us relatives had to go and find the cleaner to clean it, blood and sick on the floor dried,its staff ignoring a patients cries for help when his catheter blocked and his urine bag was full, because the staff where ignoreing him due to a shift change in 45 minutes,the patients screamed at to be quiet because they where upseting the staff,patients moved from bed to bed ,ward to ward, without telling any relative,and lots more.

or they could, like the other 99.9% and millions of others, just get excellent treatment.

The fact is that the senior managers in Trust are not anything like as well paid as leaders in private industry. Pay people poor salaries, and you wont attract the best people.

What that statement proves is that people in the private sector at the top are overpaid, not that NHS senior staff are underpaid. Paying lots of money does not ensure you get the best staff.

of course it does look at the salaries in banking…are you really saying those lot are no the best and completely competent…just think what they could do to the NHS

Are you some sort of commie ?

i) which parts of the NHS have been privatised since May 2010?

ii) How much has NHS spending reduced, in either fiscal or real terms, since May 2010 (the infamous cuts!)?

i) Local to me: all of the previously NHS childrens and families services in Devon PCT have gone to Virgin ‘healthcare’. Is that the sort of answer you were after? Serco are also doing a smashing (actually I mean terrible) job managing Cornwall out of hours GP services the last couple of years, and the whole thousands of frontline and support staff of what was Plymouth Primary care NHS trust are now a ‘Social Enterprise Trust delivering services on behalf of the NHS’ and those TUPE’s were included in the present government’s claims to have helped create so many thousand private sector jobs since they got in. So by their own claims, I will claim that service as privatised too.

ii) Google CRES savings. NHS trusts have been ‘saving’ (ie not going on frontline care, lord knows where it is going) 5% year on year since 2010, although to be fair New Labour strted that. Never understood how that tallies with the slight increase in DOH spending but operating budgets of individual services/wards are clearly falling year on year.

HTH

Like CG, this topic is a little to raw for me to discuss in full. However, for anyone with any interest in the economics and finances that may be/are setting the context for this debate, I would point you in the direction of today’s Fiscal Sustainability Report from the OBR *. Its sober reading to say the least…

http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/fiscal-sustainability-report-july-2013/

When you digest this, you can have some sympathy with one economic commentator who concludes this afternoon, “The NHS is struggling the reforms already on the drawing board, but it ain’t seen noting yet.” (ok, this is from the Torygraph!). For a bit of spice, the FT focuses more on the implications this may or may not have on immigration.

I don’t think any political party can claim the moral, economic, political (add whatever) high ground after the decades of mismanagement, poorly executed reforms, absurd extremes of political debate etc that have plagued the NHS. Its a wonder that the best bits survive to any extent at all IMO.

(edit: hidden away on page 86 is the comment from OBR that “Assuming that health care spending per capita for a person of a given age and gender remains constant as a share of GDP might be thought unrealistic given the likelihood that productivity growth in this relatively labour intensive sector is likely to be lower than that in the rest of the economy.” What economists (and Warner in the DT) refer to as Baumol’s cost disease which always causes some debate!!!}

The NHS is too big a train set for politicians to resist playing with it.

Funding has stood still but numbers of people in the UK, ages of people, costs of complying with CQC standards have all gone up. It’s a real terms drop.

We have had a local service provided by virgin. It’s been awful and is only now reaching acceptable. Their response has been to deny there is a problem, then blame other people and complain about those who complain about them.

Don’t expect private care to be cheaper or better. Which is a shame. I’d really hoped it would achieve something.

2 yrs ago the NHS was doing rather well. Now it’s heading downhill

Depends how you measure productivity, though, that’s a minefield with healthcare. Medicine’s one of those odd sectors where technological improvements tend to lead to a cost increase not a decrease- the most expensive thing you can ever do to a patient is keep them alive.

“2 yrs ago the NHS was doing rather well. Now it’s heading downhill” 😯

Maybe you missed yesterday’s report (and many thousands of individual stories from patient’s families) that for a good 7 year period going back to 2005 (and possibly earlier), 10% of NHS acute trusts were busy despatching their patients at a prodigious rate?

If this is “doing well” one can only wonder at how bad things would have to be for things to described as such…

Better than before. But now it’s getting worse.

Seems fairly well balanced and reflective of what I’ve seen of the actual report, and nothing at all like the debacle being portrayed in this thread