St4’s rock. It’s the 5’s underrated, unloved, overlooked little brother. I’m faster on mine than I was on my five.

The ST4 didn’t sell as it was the same weight as the Five but less travel

Going from a 2008 16″ old five to an 18″ 2012 ST4 I lost about 1lb in weight. Build was identical otherwise.

Same year 5 weighed the same as same year ST4

Suits me. I paid £300 for a practically unused 2012 frame. Fives go for at least double that

edoverheels – Member

Northwind, what were the genuine issues with the Blood? Not being argumentative, just interested

I think its main issue was just its confused nature… Original version was all downhill parts, sold as a slopestyle/big hit bike but they wanted to market it for trails riding too, having a freeride and an AM version was weird. 150mm rear axle at a time when the 224 had a 135. And not really that slack or long, especially after the Patriot 66. Oh and a 1 year warranty to cap it off.

I loved the idea… If the v2 had a 2 inch headtube I’d probably have one tbh (for modern forks and a headangle thinger). There was a more balls-out Strange version that never made the cut, shame.

The ST4 didn’t sell as it was the same weight as the Five but less travel

Getting back on topic 🙂 isn’t this the danger with the Segment. It’s unlikely to weigh much less than an Alpine Five, but has less travel.

I guess this is why I’m so surprised by the chainstays. I know one shouldn’t be too concerned with a single number, but a shorter travel 29er with <440mm chainstays would be a different proposition to the Alpine Five.

I’d love to know why they decided to stick with 550mm chainstays. Is that as short as they can go? It’s only 5mm less than the Alpine Five, despite having 30mm less travel.

Maybe they tried it with shorter chainstays, but just preferred the way it rode at 550mm. In which case, kudos to them for ignoring fashion and sticking with what they think feels best, but it does still make it hard to see why you wouldn’t just go for the longer travel Alpine Five.

What’s really weird is that he wheelbase for the 19″ Segment appears to be longer than the 19″ Alpine Five, despite the latter having a longer fork, slacker head angle, longer chainstays and the same effective top tube. Maybe there is a misprint in the geometry tables?

I like Orange bikes (although I’m no fan boy), and have owned an Alpine 160 for 2 years and can’t fault it for it’s intended use compared to other bikes. The geometry is absolutely spot on and it pedals as well and any of my friend’s multi pivot bikes.
There are lighter bikes and there are bikes that climb better but I haven’t found a similar bike that descends any faster.

I never run the Pro-Pedal on and it doesn’t pogo around at all.
I agree that decent shocks have probably saved single pivot bikes and that some/many people don’t/won’t like how they ride but they suit me.

I agree that they’re not cheap and the build kits certainly aren’t very good value for money. But there are a lot of (very) old 5s and Patriots out there still being ridden hard and they still hold their value in the 2nd hand market.

I tried a 5 and liked that as well. I don’t think they’re particularly ugly although I think the 5 style swing arm looks a lot worse than the Alpine one as that isn’t a big flat piece of metal. If they made the swing arm of their new bikes with the brace at the bottom they’d look better. And the down tubes on them nowadays are no fatter or noisier than many hydroformed tubes (the Transition Covert has an equally fat DT for example).

Would I buy a Segment? Maybe if I already had a DH bike rather than an AM bike as it would probably make more sense to have a short travel bike with decent geo to compliment a big bike rather than a long travel AM (Enduro) bike, especially if the trails around you aren’t that steep/rough/tech, etc.

And from what I’ve heard on here it would probably be worth Hora trying one in the right size for more than a week or 2 before he slags them off.

Tom KP

I’ve never understood people buying their full builds, especially with upgrades. As has been said before in similar threads, Orange charge you pretty much the full rrp for the new part

Just having a look at the options page for the Segment Pro and that doesn’t seem to be the case:

Upgrade the fork from Fox Performance to Pike £200
Upgrade rear shock from Evolution to Factory/Kashima £120
“Upgrade” brakes from Shimano to Hope £130
Upgrade wheels from Mavic to Hope/Arch Ex with Maxxis Minion/High Roller £150
Upgrade whole drivetrain to SRAM X1 11 speed £280

Seems about right me. OK, the bottom bracket and headset upgrades are only about a tenner cheaper than the CRC prices for those parts, but the original units are probably pretty cheap.

I still reckon you are better off buying a frameset and building it up yourself, but only if you don’t put any value on your own time.

I bought a complete Orange bike, in a standard spec. I upgraded it and flogged or re-used the stuff I didn’t want – came out pretty similar but exactly to my spec, rather than what they offered.

I don’t think people get the point of this bike and are getting very hung up on the chainstay length. It’s long because it’s supposed to be long, as that makes it super stable at proper speeds, the bike won’t sell in big numbers, they know that.

It’s been designed for one reason and one reason only to be fast.

So it’s designed for what fast riders want (not weekend warriors etc etc), a point and shoot bike, a bike that over short distances will wipe the floor rather than being an all rounder.

Usually these bikes remain as Strange prototypes but this one they decided to release.

I don’t think people get the point of this bike and are getting very hung up on the chainstay length.

To be fair, that’s just me 🙂

Ah, i get it now! Segment, as in a segment from the orange fruit, plus the Strava Segment.

Awesome.

What’s really weird is that the wheelbase for the 19″ Segment appears to be longer than the 19″ Alpine Five

OK, it looks as though that was a misprint and it’s been fixed now.

Northwind, should have read your post more thoroughly. I thought you were implying functional/warranty issues. Short travel but slack fun bike with a big fork appealed but few around then. Looked at Blur 4X but not a big fork option from memory. I wanted a low bike, not a long one, I still like short stays and I’m a short arse.
I thought at the time it would be a sales disaster, heavy with limited travel and so no showroom/internet appeal. Agree when they tried to lighten it up they had missed the point.
Lots more choice around now for ‘fun’ bikes.

with Orange. You can’t buy parts for discontinued frames frinstance, they stopped providing non-warranty replacement parts for the 26 inch Five the day they canned it.

Good job my 26″ five frame only has two components then! (Front end, back end!)
…and it’s not plastic! ;D

DK – Member

Good job my 26″ five frame only has two components then! (Front end, back end!)

Yeah you’re right, it’ll be no bother at all if you break one of those and they won’t sell you a replacement, you’ll still have the other end 😉

I don’t think people get the point of this bike and are getting very hung up on the chainstay length. It’s long because it’s supposed to be long, as that makes it super stable at proper speeds, the bike won’t sell in big numbers, they know that.

It’s been designed for one reason and one reason only to be fast.

So it’s designed for what fast riders want (not weekend warriors etc etc), a point and shoot bike, a bike that over short distances will wipe the floor rather than being an all rounder.

Usually these bikes remain as Strange prototypes but this one they decided to release.

I think you’ve missed the point of peoples criticisms. And probably the point of the bike.

More travel = quicker on rough tracks, that’s just the laws of physics.

Less travel = quicker on smoother tracks (pedals/pumps better).

The segment does appear to be designed for the weekend warrior at a trail center (as long as they can ignore the fashion for enduro/long travel bikes). A type of trail that conventional wisdom does suggest benefits from shorter chainstays as that extra stability just isn’t needed. We’ve not ridden them yet so maybe we should be reserving jurgement, but I’m with the majority here, those chainstays look long compared to simlar bikes like the Whyte T129. I still think it’s a cop-out though and that an out and out XC bike will lap the average trail center quicker than any hybrid XC/trail bike. It just might not last as long!

I’ve got to admit though, it probably is the type of bike I want/need (what I really want is a T129 that doesn’t get criticised for being noddely, bring back the old skool Quad swingarm!). I’m just not that much a fan of bikes that bias your weight foreward by having long stays, I’d rather short stays and a long top tube and shift my own weight.

Northwind – Member
Yeah you’re right, it’ll be no bother at all if you break one of those and they won’t sell you a replacement, you’ll still have the other end

I think you missed my point… It is unlikely to break, due to the simplicity of design and manufacturing processes involved.

Also there are only two parts to the frameso chances of component failure is probably reduced when compared to a frame with several little parts

what I really want is a T129 that doesn’t get criticised for being noddely

What about the new SCR model? Not seen any ride repots yet, but I thought the front mech had been sacrificed specifically to make the pivot stiffer.

DK – Member

I think you missed my point… It is unlikely to break, due to the simplicity of design and manufacturing processes involved.

They do, though- cracks through the BB shell, broken shock mounts etc, I’m not convinced the Five’s an especially tough bike tbh despite reputation. And anything can be crash damaged.

DK – Member
I think you missed my point… It is unlikely to break, due to the simplicity of design and manufacturing processes involved.

saw a brand new alpine swing arm written off in a 2mph topple onto some rocks on a demo day. There is nothing in the design that makes it less prone to impact, cracks etc.

I noticed they aren’t selling size XL, wonder what the reasoning was there.

might be as simple as, they don’t expect a huge demand (sales forecasts or lack of demand on the XL gyro) for XL, so why go to the trouble of making one?

DK – Member

I think you missed my point… It is unlikely to break, due to the simplicity of design and manufacturing processes involved.

there’s roughly 5 and a half miles of weld on an orange frame.

or more accurately between 4 & 6 miles depending on who did it 😉

saw a brand new alpine swing arm written off in a 2mph topple onto some rocks on a demo day. There is nothing in the design that makes it less prone to impact, cracks etc.

That would be known as a freak accident then….and can happen to anybody’s bike with whatever design suspension.

I like single pivot designs, i ran an Ariel through a winter and didnt have a single problem with the one oversize bushing it pivoted on, arguably in the UK’s wet and muddy winters they make perfect sense.

I do agree with the criticism leveled at Orange re. their components, for the money being asked to get a Revelation or Fox 32 on a 150-160mm bike when most of the opposition are now speccing Pikes is distinctly underwhelming….i know its not about component list, its about how the bike rides but when it comes to parting with £2500+ for a bicycle i’d like the latest forks and a dropper post in with the deal please….Nukeproof, Commencal, Canyon, YT etc etc can all do it….even bloody On-One have managed it with the Codeine so there’s no excuse for Orange really.

On the other hand they have their assembly works in the UK and i’m sure pay more for this than having the bikes shipped over near enough built from the far east….perhaps the bikes have to cost more so that UK workers can be paid a living wage?….this is something STW seems to be decidedly schizophrenic about, most seem to want the latest parts on their bikes for not much money but at the same time criticise the lack of money in the UK bike industry, you cant have it both ways….if you want Orange to employ UK workers up in Halifax then you’ll pay a bit more for the bike.

Orange could perhaps go down the YT, Canyon, Radon route and go internet only, they could still assemble the bikes in Halifax but do away with any dealerships, middle men, demo days etc etc….might still be able to pay their UK staff a decent wage and then put decent components on their bikes too?

saw a brand new alpine swing arm written off in a 2mph topple onto some rocks on a demo day. There is nothing in the design that makes it less prone to impact, cracks etc.

deviant – Member

That would be known as a freak accident then….and can happen to anybody’s bike with whatever design suspension.

…and the chances are, if it were less then 5 years old they’d be able to supply you with the replacement parts.

deviant – Member
saw a brand new alpine swing arm written off in a 2mph topple onto some rocks on a demo day. There is nothing in the design that makes it less prone to impact, cracks etc.
That would be known as a freak accident then….and can happen to anybody’s bike with whatever design suspension.

Ah we’ll… Paid my £550… Used! Take my chances!

A new alloy sp frame for £1.5k? …who are they kidding?! Lol

The point was as they had stopped making them they might not. Also the poster was suggesting that due to the simple design they are less prone to failure. They suffer the same as other bikes.

What about the new SCR model? Not seen any ride repots yet, but I thought the front mech had been sacrificed specifically to make the pivot stiffer.

Yea, the other stumbling block is actualy justifying buying any bike in the forst place! But yes, it looks very tempting. But I still think I’d rather go for lowered Pike rather than a Reba, swaping from revs to lyriks was a revelation (gettit?) and I don’t want to go back!

A new alloy sp frame for £1.5k? …who are they kidding?! Lol

Pretty much on the ball for an alloy frame (and I don’t think SP detracts anything from the costs, it’s not like Santa Cruz or Spesh have a department of people working on VPP or horst links, IIRC all of spesh’s mountain bikes come from one guy called Brandon IIRC? And an article on Trek pretty much summed it up with “this guy designs frames, this guy does the graphics*” The huge R&D department is a myth.

*the fact that 1/2 of the effort goes into graphics and marketing tells you how little effort it actualy takes to develop a bike. OK it’s a full time job for someone, buit it’s not like they have a team of people working none stop on the next Blur for 4 years as soon as this ones done, it’s a few months development.

Another Hora knows nowt thread…awesome

My five was the best riding bike I’ve ever owned. CCDB, set of lyriks in the front – regretted selling it and keeping the Camber I had because it had ‘on trend’ wheels.

Orange full builds are expensive, but then so are Santa Cruz builds. I worked out that if you bought a top spec bronson complete, circa 9k, you’d actually spend £30 more than buying a frame and building everything up at full RRP. So the answer? Don’t buy a complete.

As for the ‘it’s too much money for a single pivot’ argument – I’d rather have a design thats been refined over a number of years, than a completely different design that hints that they got it wrong with the previous model. When I got mine in 2012, it had the maxle back end, tapered headtube, 67 degree head angle and a 30.9 seat tube for a dropper. Bar wheel size, that would be pretty much on spec for today. Yes its made out of aluminium but it was properly awesome to ride and the bike I miss the most. I’d have another without question, at full RRP.

dirtydog – Member

…and the chances are, if it were less then 5 years old they’d be able to supply you with the replacement parts.

Nah, that’s where we came in, they stopped supplying anything but warranty replacement parts for the 26 inch Five, as soon as the 650b one was launched.

mikewsmith – Member
Also the poster was suggesting that due to the simple design they are less prone to failure. They suffer the same as other bikes.

An Orange-5’s bearings will take the same punishment as an FSR design but when it comes to replacing bearings it is much cheaper and easier on a single pivot design.

This is a link to the bearings for an Orange-5’s single pivot:

http://www.onlinebearings.co.uk/Orange-5-Pivot-Bearing-Kit-O5P.html

(£5.50 if the link doesnt work.)

Try finding a bearing kit for an FSR for a fiver!

If you’re going to ride the bike through muddy, gritty, wet winters then this ease and cost effectiveness starts to appeal.

I know Orange aren’t the value of the likes of canyon et all, but I did a quick run through of a build buying a frame only & a Pro build, and didn’t get it any cheaper even using online bargains (let alone find 120mm Pikes).

TBH frame bearings don’t really make a dent in the overall cost of riding, difference between my fsr-bike and my orange is just pennies per ride and maybe an extra hour’s labour a year. I like that it’s one less thing to faff with though but the real world impact is nowt.

(and if you put those £5.50 bearings into it, you’re still probably going to be changing bearings frequently…)

Nah, that’s where we came in, they stopped supplying anything but warranty replacement parts for the 26 inch Five, as soon as the 650b one was launched.

You mean like every other manufacture then. Do you still think jungle stock old swingarms for old style hecklers, no, they’ll have a few knocking around for the last 26 inch models before the 650b came out for WARRANTY only purposes, just like Orange do.
Again if they can’t replace the part under warranty, because it’s nearly 3 years old, they will upgrade you to the latest and greatest frame, again just like every other manufacturer.

Rik – Member

You mean like every other manufacture then.

Nah, many manufacturers will supply parts out of warranty. Orange used to in fact. Trek do it, Specialized do it I think, and yes Santa Cruz do it. Not ancient ones, but reasonable timescales. Even little companies like Cotic and Last do it, or mailorderists like YT. People had conniptions when Lapierre stopped doing it the other year.

Selling a bike on Friday and withdrawing parts support for it on monday is not cool no matter how you slice it. But I give Orange extra points off considering they make all their parts inhouse in short runs anyway.

I’ve got to admit though, it probably is the type of bike I want/need (what I really want is a T129 that doesn’t get criticised for being noddely, bring back the old skool Quad swingarm!). I’m just not that much a fan of bikes that bias your weight foreward by having long stays, I’d rather short stays and a long top tube and shift my own weight.

Long front centre (handlebar position) effect on weight distribution is a myth. BB location relative to wheelbase is what’s important.

I’d rather have a 450mm rear centre than 420mm (medium bike). The latter just means poor front grip on flat turns, crap tech climbing and other issues. It makes far more sense to improve technique at slow speed tight cornering than fundamentally compromise a bike.

I know Orange aren’t the value of the likes of canyon et all, but I did a quick run through of a build buying a frame only & a Pro build, and didn’t get it any cheaper even using online bargains (let alone find 120mm Pikes).

I did the same thing a while back and it came out at about £400 cheaper from memory. Of course things may well have changed, but Orange were charging roughly RRP on all of the components.

As expected the Gyro has been dropped off the Orange website…