Tbh, what is really happening is that we are looking at it from 2 different view points. I don’t think this is a problem, you think there is a problem.

Yeah, hopefully we’re getting to the point where we inevitably largely agree and can put this bugger to rest 🙂 I think the difference in how we’re considering the phrase “a problem”. As far as I can see you’re mainly considering the problem of physical harm; I’m mainly considering the problem of non-physical harm (since there was no physical harm in the incident we’re discussing here) and its potential for causing a certain reaction.

Your stand point seems to be, people are scared, there’s a problem and it’s dangerous.

Again, a subtle difference: you’re inferring the “it’s dangerous” bit; my standpoint is more like “many people would be scared by this manner of riding, that’s a problem, and even if it doesn’t manifest itself as injury outcomes it’s still a problem”. And I’ve said nothing about the population-level scale of the problem, only that the riding in this case is to my mind problematic; if we all did it then similar encounters would happen more frequently and the overall problem would be bigger.

You can’t quantify anecdotal evidence.

You can, you just have to collect it in certain ways and treat it in an appropriate manner. If anecdotal evidence were unquantifiable we’d probably have people saying that racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination didn’t exist because there were no data. Whereas we can do anything from, say, counting allegations of criminal offences to performing sentiment analysis of social media posts to start to understand the scale of the problem.

Even if you look at the original video in the OP, the anecdotal evidence suggests that the vest majority of people are fine with mtbs on the trails, there was only 1 derisory comment from a number of people that were passed.

Sure. And again, we need to pull it back from saying that we don’t have data about any supposed problem in the entire population, and simply say that coming round a blind bend on your front wheel, causing other people to evacuate that trail, and then feeling obliged to apologise to them is self-evidently not commendable behaviour and is something which, whatever the scale of the overall problem, isn’t going to improve it.

The fact that we don’t know how many of these incidents occur doesn’t mean we should say they’re fine and dandy and we should just crack on as long as no-one actually gets hit.

Your stand point seems to be, people are scared, there’s a problem and it’s dangerous. Well not really, if there aren’t any injuries happening because then it’s simply not dangerous,

It is highly antisocial and aggravating though.

And there are accidents happening. I crashed into someone whilst hooning around Swinley too fast. It was another biker. My finger was cut in the collosion, his was quite badly whacked, and a rhododendron bush took a fair amount of damage. I learned a lesson and slowed down on blind corners.

tbh, long as you are careful around other users you can go as fast as you like, imo(which if you look at the rest of the video, they are perfectly respectable and careful around the other users, 1 woman was upset but there really was no basis for her comment).

The incident was an oversight by the OP, nothing more really. You really can’t legislate for that, mistakes can happen.

Anyhoo, I think both our points are really made, we’ve differing opinions that aren’t going to perfectly align in lieu of much else significant to talk about.

Ultimately lesson, keep a decent line of sight and make sure you can stop within that distance. I think we all agree on that.

molgrips

Subscriber
Your stand point seems to be, people are scared, there’s a problem and it’s dangerous. Well not really, if there aren’t any injuries happening because then it’s simply not dangerous,

It is highly antisocial and aggravating though.

And there are accidents happening. I crashed into someone whilst hooning around Swinley too fast. It was another biker. My finger was cut in the collosion, his was quite badly whacked, and a rhododendron bush took a fair amount of damage. I learned a lesson and slowed down on blind corners.

Well that was stupid! 😆 I’ve never crashed it to anyone, myself.

Does that anecdote cancel out your anecdote? 😉

@rich_s
‘Norfolk edition’?

They only worked on the flattest part of the country, lol!

As a general observation, the guide might have been wise to invest in a bunch of walkie-talkies. Send someone down the trail to warn of any ‘hazards’.

Though, if I was shelling out the £££ for a guided walk or MTb trip, I’d like a commemorative video with drone footage.

Or would the ‘Norfolk edition’ feature six-finger levers???

seosamh77

…The incident was an oversight by the OP, nothing more really. You really can’t legislate for that, mistakes can happen…

Oversight?

Surely he knew he was going fast and that was a blind corner?

And that it was a shared path with the possibility of people/bikes/dogs/kids likely to be coming in the other direction?

Just because there wasn’t the last several times doesn’t mean there isn’t now.

And the reason that there aren’t any significant statistics is because most people don’t ride like Richard Heads on public paths.

However we all make mistakes. The secret is not repeating them and this is one incident.

7 pages on an incident that never happened. The guide most likely had ridden that trail several times before and never came across a soul. unfortunately on this occasion he did on one of the only blind bends, could he have ridden round it slower, with hindsight most definitely, but he did still stop in time and I’m sure if he rides this trail in future he will ride it with more caution, lessons learned and all that. No one was hurt the walkers didn’t seem that offended, the only people that seem offended are the self righteous, overly opinionated bunch on here that are clearly out damage probably what is a very good guides reputation and business because of there overly anal standpoint. I always thought mountain bikers were a pretty relaxed bunch but clearly they have been infiltrated by the hybrid love children of the ramblers association and local curtain twitching neighbourhood watch brigade. – well on here at least.

@bigwill – as stated previously, he’s a guide, who has ridden that trail before and knows that it’s a blind corner (stated in the original video) and that it’s a shared trail. If he wanted his clients to go round there at speed then he should have scouted ahead on that section at a slower pace to make sure the way was clear. Later on the trail there are good sight lines and the trail is empty so there’s no problem with riding at whatever speed the riders are capable of, but not at that point of the trail.

It’s not the fact that no collision occurred it’s an incident where the negative perception of mountain bikers by others is reinforced. Avoiding such incidents isn’t kowtowing to other groups it’s common decency.

If we as mountain bikers want respect and acceptance in the countryside then we also have to respect other trail users. Without it we aren’t going anywhere.

Or would the ‘Norfolk edition’ feature six-finger levers???

Original ‘mistakenly’ message referenced five finger leavers which taking into account the thumb gripping the bars is where the Norfolk reference came in. I had some plastic LX levers on my Marin Palisades and yeah they probably did only work on Norfolk gradients.

7 pages on an incident that never happened.

It did happen. There was an incident.

I always thought mountain bikers were a pretty relaxed bunch but clearly they have been infiltrated by the hybrid love children of the ramblers association and local curtain twitching neighbourhood watch brigade

So you think it’s wrong to care about pissing people off and giving us a bad name?

This is starting to turn into one of the nasty Singletrack “baying mob” threads. I think he’s learnt his lesson, he’ll slow down there next time but it’s not the worst example of trail behaviour. I’d not have ridden it quite like that, but I’ve ridden the same trail quickly where the sight lines are good.

It seems we are going round in the inevitable circles and people just want to see blood, particularly the likes of epicyclo and TJ who don’t ride bikes in that way and I’m not sure appreciate the control that you can have on these modern big bikes. I suspect TJ will reply repeating that access in Scotland is unique and a qualified right, and epicyclo will say something about “trailparks”, which seems to be a deliberately obtuse reference to what the rest of the world calls trail centres.

Aye, 100%.

I don’t get this ‘negative perception of us MTBers’ pish either, is this maybe a reality in the overpopulated south? It’s certainly not the case up here, or even in the Lakes, the absolute vast majority of folk I’ve met in the mountains are either amazed to see folk howking a 30lb bike up there, and up for a blether.

The guy came into a corner a bit hot, apologised to the walkers, end of.

Christ, imagine he’d been on an ebike? 😂😂😂

@whitestone I’m not I saying this guide was without fault and as said in hindsight I’m sure even he might reflect that he could had gone a tad slower, but we are human and as so not always perfect, it’s a very low level incident and he did stop without any contact. I think as mountain bikers with the exception of some gravity events / specific DH trails the perceived speed and real speed are often miles apart, I bet he was doing no more than 12-15 mph.

As for reinforcing negative perception of mountain bikers in all the years I had ridden on bridleways, footpaths, shared trails, I have never come into conflict with any other trail user and I don’t think this guide did, apologises were said and everything moved on, hey I’m not saying conflict doesn’t occur but I believe it is far more infrequent than is often perceived and just like this minor infringement blown out of all proportion in internet echo chambers like this. People need a sense of perspective that’s all.

The guy came into a corner a bit hot, apologised to the walkers, end of.

That isn’t the end of it. The crux here is that he didn’t (initially) think he did anything wrong at all. If he has indeed had a think and realised this, and if others have, then good.

As for there not being conflict between trail user groups – I think there has been in the past and probably still is. I don’t see much of it because my trails are quiet, but in other areas I suspect there is more conflict. But then, I slow right down to pass people and exchange cheery hellos and stuff, because it’s important. I could blast past them at high speed but I don’t.

That isn’t the end of it. The crux here is that he didn’t (initially) think he did anything wrong at all. If he has indeed had a think and realised this, and if others have, then good.

Nonsense.

He apologised to the walkers, which is pretty much as ‘initially’ as you get.

The ‘crux’ is that he didn’t apologise and seek redemption from a bunch of self righteous moral internet gods.

It’s the knock-on effects. Those walkers get back to their hotel/B&B/home/pub and mention: “Nearly got taken out by some mountain bikers today”, that becomes “Out of control bikers, etc.”. To the walkers it was an inconvenience, a near miss, just happens, no big deal. To their audience and further audiences getting Chinese whispers it’s reinforcing stereotypes.

A bear shitting in the woods isn’t a problem. One hundred bears shitting in the woods becomes a problem. But, crucially, for each individual bear, shitting in the woods isn’t a problem.

Moving away from this incident. I coordinate/oversee an outdoor challenge, not bike related. The notes given to the contenders have gone from less than a page to over four sides of A4 purely because people can’t behave themselves. This includes them believing that their supporters don’t have to pay at pay and display car parks, making a racket outside peoples’ homes at 3am, etc. It means that on occasion I’ve had to deflect the national park, the National Trust and even the national press. The press obviously just wanted to hype things up to make a story (see the Jeremy Vine thread) and a few pertinent facts sent them on their way.

Nobeerinthefridge

Nonsense.

He apologised to the walkers, which is pretty much as ‘initially’ as you get.

The ‘crux’ is that he didn’t apologise and seek redemption from a bunch of self righteous moral internet gods.

It’s not nonsense. Read his post again. He apologised for startling them, but he maintains he did nothing wrong.

A lot of responses on here from people sounding like they’d be better staying home eating their cornflakes musing over the Daily Mail than heading out for an early morning ride.

I’ve seen many scenarios where a polite, law abiding bike ride has encountered walkers and its been the walkers who have been downright rude, abusive and out of order. But walkers don’t tend to wear GoPros to film their adventures and then post them up for the world to see. Its a shame then that Ben has felt the pressure to edit the video as whilst it was an unfortunate incident, nothing happened.

I wonder whether we should start posting up every instance of rides when encounters with walkers garners unwarranted abuse, because I’m certain that it isn’t a one sided storey of inconsideration for other users of our – free for all to use – countryside.

For what it’s worth I’m a member of multiple hill walking clubs here in Scotland, and I can tell you that there is definitely a rising resentment against what many of them see as aggressive and intrusive mountain biking. If you don’t spend lots of time with these folks then you don’t know. On the bus and in the pub, it’s a topic of discussion that does come up, even from folk that know I’m a mountain biker. As Whitestone says, all it takes is one minor thing then they’re all flapping about it for months, and their position is gradually polarising negatively. Fair enough some of them are miserable old brexity sods, and I do what I can to defend the position of responsible mountain biking, but clearly there’s a section of us with little consideration for anything else than their rad gnarr edits n hucks

Cant we all just kiss and make up? I’m a member of climbing clubs in the Lake District and Wales and more and more of our members are buying bikes and ditching the walking boots. Go figure. Of course the older right wingers with red socks are having their feet cut off and impaled on stakes to warn of approaching blind corners.

I would echo what Mike says above.I think that bikes have been about long enough that folk are used to them, and even the most dyed in the wool hillwalker recognises how handy they are to get into remote areas,but some folk like to complain about other users, end of. I have had the odd remark in the past, but weirdly it hasn’t been from anybody with what I recognise as a Scottish accent.That to me suggests that a certain level of conflict down South that is a lot rarer here, so we should work to keep it like that. Being told I should dismount while passing her party as I was on a bridleway in the Southern Cairngorms was a favourite.

I had to Google Bridleway; thank you God for making me Scottish.

Anyone who doesn’t see riding like this in these areas as a problem need only look at the camping bans to see where it can end up.

munrobiker

It seems we are going round in the inevitable circles and people just want to see blood, particularly the likes of epicyclo and TJ who don’t ride bikes in that way and I’m not sure appreciate the control that you can have on these modern big bikes. I suspect TJ will reply repeating that access in Scotland is unique and a qualified right, and epicyclo will say something about “trailparks”, which seems to be a deliberately obtuse reference to what the rest of the world calls trail centres.

I do ride bikes that way, but only under closed race conditions. (However age means I don’t do much of that these days.)

Whether it’s a rigid hardtail or a “modern big bike” is irrelevant if you’re riding it at the edge of control. The point is to ride it with enough reserve to safely slow/avoid obstacles and without alarming other people sharing the path.

Sorry about “trailparks” – that’s what I thought they were called, I stand corrected.