Big-Bud.
Yes we were (not was) seriously considering booking a trip with him and you are correct that we will now not be doing so. Somehow carried out a background check ! Well I looked on his public Facebook page and there is a post dated 21st of February stating that after this year he will no longer be running trips in Scotland. I also rang an acquaintance whom I rarely see but I know goes on a lot of MTB trips all over the world and asked if they had any experience of him.

Seriously – what other criteria do you use to judge how fast it’s acceptable to ride? I’m not being facitous here.

Serious question, when you’re trained as a mountain bike guide, which you presumably are, what do they tell you? I can’t believe it’s just a simple, ‘make sure you don’t crash into anyone’.

My take would be that you should ride at a speed where you’re not going to endanger or startle other trail users based on a conservative perception of what might be alarming for them.

I’m not suggesting mountain bikers should pootle about like OAPs on a shopping trip, just that a mountain biker’s perception of what’s a reasonable speed may differ from a walker’s perception of the same speed in a similar way to GoPro footage maybe not being an accurate representation of actual speed.

Of course it’s all subjective and I’m not having a pop at you, but I’d say there’s more to it than just being able to stop before you hit someone. Genuinely curious, when you train as a guide, what are you told?

Reflect and all will be well! 😆

Incidentally, how does one prove they have reflected sufficiently? Are the baying mob expecting a grovelling apology? 😆

One must sacrifice their first born at the high priestess of tandem morality.

Come on, Joe. 🤣

thunderwingdoomslayer (Dan) – the reasons for stopping running trips in Scotland are non of your business and nothing to do with having had my “use” or money out of guiding in Scotland.

I was referring specifically to bad things to say about my guiding and attitude to other trail users. But I’m glad you feel the need to have a swipe at me personally behind your anonymous username on an internet forum.

Anyway – bigger fish to fry.

Videoed self flagellation is the minimum standard accepted by the STW select committee. It marks the beginning of a lifelong learning exercise.

Rule 1 applies……

Go fast on proper bike trails with little use and open corners? Hell yes.

Treating open access routes with lots of foot traffic the same way? Just no.

I’m firmly of the ‘rambling with a bike’ school, unless I’m on a dedicated bike trail, when I can go for it without the fear of mowing someone down.

Are the people who treat common access trails like racetracks the same people who drive like **** on minor roads, with the same sense of entitlement?
I would imagine so.

MTB was much more fun when fewer entitled arseholes with no idea how to behave in the countryside were involved. The sooner they piss off back to their golf clubs, the better.

And Strava. That can go and **** itself, big time.
Not everything is a race.

No one gives a shit how fast you are.

And anyone who rides the most popular walking routes on a weekend is a bell end.
Ladybower on a Sunday?
Just **** off.

No imagination, lazy thinking and a complete disregard for others.

That’s why a lot of people hate us. They have a point.

There’s thousands of miles of empty, cheeky trails out there.
Don’t be a ****. Go and find them.

Has the YouTube vid been edited, can’t see anything at 8.15 now??

Yup Poop. It would probably be a good idea for the mods to shut this thread/ kill it with fire as nobody can actually see the incident now. That removes any chance of folk coming across this thread being able to make up their own minds about it and he does have a business to run.

Well as I’m waiting for access to a job I’ll say I’ve ridden his Mont Blanc Enduro trip and it was fantastic and I have lots to compare it to from the last 20 years. Incredibly capable guide and just non stop top riding for a week and great hotels. I’m not his mate only a punter he probably doesn’t remember as you meet lots of them and am looking to book one of his Italian trips for my 50th next year if I think my legs are willing. I’ve just pulled one nail out the cross but my right hands free if you need somewhere to put it.

That removes any chance of folk coming across this thread being able to make up their own minds about it

Still has the woman at 3:05 saying “Alright. Enjoy” if people still need something to get het up about

The meeting with walkers at 8:15 must have been edited out, unless they are invisible people.

Rusty Spanner

Subscriber
Rule 1 applies……

Go fast on proper bike trails with little use and open corners? Hell yes.

Treating open access routes with lots of foot traffic the same way? Just no.

I’m firmly of the ‘rambling with a bike’ school, unless I’m on a dedicated bike trail, when I can go for it without the fear of mowing someone down.

Are the people who treat common access trails like racetracks the same people who drive like **** on minor roads, with the same sense of entitlement?
I would imagine so.

MTB was much more fun when fewer entitled arseholes with no idea how to behave in the countryside were involved. The sooner they piss off back to their golf clubs, the better.

And Strava. That can go and **** itself, big time.
Not everything is a race.

No one gives a shit how fast you are.

And anyone who rides the most popular walking routes on a weekend is a bell end.
Ladybower on a Sunday?
Just **** off.

No imagination, lazy thinking and a complete disregard for others.

That’s why a lot of people hate us. They have a point.

There’s thousands of miles of empty, cheeky trails out there.
Don’t be a ****. Go and find them.

Guessing someone shat in your kettle this monrning! 😆

Mountain biking has changed a lot since the late 80s and early 90s when many people first got into the sport and bought their first XC hardtails. At that time you shouldered the bike up a mountain then picked a route carefully down while being shaken to bits and stopped at the bottom to tighten your threaded steerer, which had worked loose with the battering. If you met walkers you’d stop for some banter and they would congratulate you on having got up there in the first place then stand by to watch in the hope you would crash for their amusement.

Nowadays with mountain bikes resembling motorbikes with no engine you can blast over stuff that would have caused a disaster in the 80s and 90s. Speeds have increased massively and accidents are much more bone-crushing as a consequence. The speeds in the video above would be fine on a dedicated downhill trail but on a public footpath they look downright idiotic. If I’d been one of those walkers I would certainly have had a go at the cyclists for selfish disregard for other people’s safety. I don’t see any difference between a reckless cyclist who injures a pedestrian and a reckless driver who injures a cyclist and that’s where cyclists’ misplaced sense of smug entitlement does the sport no favours.

So… Are we ever going to see these injury stats, or are we still on anecdotal evidence?

What about walkers with their pointy poles, if they stumble they could have a childs eye out with that you know. And let’s not get onto those fell runners, hooligans to a man, tearing up the trails at breakneck pace! 😆

but on a public footpath

it isn’t a public footpath

Are we ever going to see these injury stats, or are we still on anecdotal evidence?

Isn’t the discussion here about an anecdote? I didn’t spot where “Was this irresponsible?” became “How many people in Scotland get injured by mountain bikers hitting them?”

As before, you won’t find any stats on how many people have an unpleasant experience as a result of being narrowly missed. Which I suspect is why you keep asking for them.

So… Are we ever going to see these injury stats, or are we still on anecdotal evidence?

If you are so desperate to see these injury stats try looking for them yourself .

You would find stats about injuries though…. The reason I asked is if there are stats showing injuries from mountain bikers against hillwalkers, then the anecdotal evidence, and therefore the fear you all seem to be suggesting exists in the hills, is well founded. If they are none to very little accidents, well then, it’s just hysteria…

I suspect, rocks and ankles are the hill walkers biggest worry though…

Perhaps we should ban rocks and pave all the hills? 😆

Ramsey Neil

If you are so desperate to see these injury stats try looking for them yourself .

I’m not the one claiming menace, I’m asking people to back up their claims with more than anecdotal evidence. I don’t think that is an unreasonable request.

Idiots to be riding like that on a shared path.

The reason I asked is if there are stats showing injuries from mountain bikers against hillwalkers, then the anecdotal evidence, and therefore the fear you all seem to be suggesting exists in the hills, is well founded. If they are none to very little accidents, well then, it’s just hysteria…

If a town centre was known to be frequented by youths with knives, but the stats showed that very few people had been stabbed, would you say that anyone fearful of walking through that town centre was hysterical?

Bez

Subscriber
The reason I asked is if there are stats showing injuries from mountain bikers against hillwalkers, then the anecdotal evidence, and therefore the fear you all seem to be suggesting exists in the hills, is well founded. If they are none to very little accidents, well then, it’s just hysteria…

If a town centre was known to be frequented by youths with knives, but the stats showed that very few people had been stabbed, would you say that anyone fearful of walking through that town centre was hysterical?

Yes.

Do you think every one in america walks down the street fearing for their life from a gunshot?

They will if an area has a high prevalence of gun violence, they won’t if it doesn’t.

Yes.

Then I think you have a major lack of empathy.

Bez

Subscriber
Yes.

Then I think you have a major lack of empathy.

Perhaps, but at least I’ve got a respect for stats and actual evidence! 😆

Do you think every one in america walks down the street fearing for their life from a gunshot?

Obviously not. Do I think that some people in America actively try to stop people wandering around with guns? Yes, of course. Just as I think some people in the UK actively try to stop people hooning around with mountain bikes.

Hang on. This has morphed.

The question of whether or not the rider was acting irresponsibly is different to the question of how many biker/walker incidents there are. But even so, how many upset or injured walkers is acceptable?

Perhaps, but at least I’ve got a respect for stats and actual evidence! 😆

No, you really don’t, because you’re trying to apply the wrong data to the problem.

This is like the close pass initiatives that have happened with regard to cycling on roads. It’s well known that one of the factors that keeps people away from cycling on roads is perceived danger, a major component of which is the experience of close passes. Which is also one of the most hated aspects of road cycling for those who do ride on roads.

There were no data about close passes. So the “only stats matter” people argued it wasn’t a problem: it’s the “no collision, no worries” attitude, but masquerading behind the pretence of “evidence”. But the evidence wasn’t the evidence about the problem, it was about something else. Related, but different.

So people started gathering data. There are of course only certain types of data you can gather, and—guess what—an important aspect of that is anecdotal, or at least “unstructured” data, in that it’s people simply saying they’ve had a negative experience and describing it. But you can still measure the semantics of this and analyse it.

And it paints a different picture to that painted by what’s recorded when the emergency services turn up and cart people off for treatment.

Bez

Subscriber
Do you think every one in america walks down the street fearing for their life from a gunshot?

Obviously not. Do I think that some people in America actively try to stop people wandering around with guns? Yes, of course. Just as I think some people in the UK actively try to stop people hooning around with mountain bikes.

But in america, there’s lots and lot’s of evidence for gun violence!

😆

This is like the close pass initiatives

Initiated due to overwhelming evidence of a problem.

I’m starting to see a pattern here…

But in america, there’s lots and lot’s of evidence for gun violence!

Again, you’re not understanding that broadly speaking humans aren’t terribly rational and don’t naturally base decisions or emotions on data, they base them on experience and anecdote.

I’m starting to see a pattern here…

Is it the one where you repeatedly insist on turning a conversation about one specific event into a conversation about population-level outcomes of similar but different events? 🙂

Challenges for evidence are standard in the Cycle Chat forum where people discuss lots of right-on stuff. If a poster feels they are on dodgy ground they will try to gain the intellectual high ground by demanding “a peer-reviewed study” or “verifiable statistics”, even when people are only bantering about the trivial stuff cyclists like to discuss.

Bez

Subscriber
I’m starting to see a pattern here…

Is it the one where you repeatedly insist on turning a conversation about one specific event into a conversation about population-level outcomes of similar but different events? 🙂

I thought 5 pages in you might want to get passed slaughtering the guy and discussing if there is a wider issue…

globalti

Member
Challenges for evidence are standard in the Cycle Chat forum where people discuss lots of right-on stuff. If a poster feels they are on dodgy ground they will try to gain the intellectual high ground by demanding “a peer-reviewed study” or “verifiable statistics”, even when people are only bantering about the trivial stuff cyclists like to discuss.

It’s the next logical step ya loonball. Youse have presented a hypothesis, that people are riding dangerously on shared trails. The next step in that is to go ahead and turn it into a theory with some evidence.

Either that or you are just stuck in a never ending circle of gossip, which is exactly what you anecdotal evidence is…

But aye you’re right, imagine me having the audacity to ask for evidence! 😆

benjonesmtb
The fact that I endo’ed may have looked uncontrolled… but please reserve your judgement on my control of front wheel traction until you’ve ridden with me.

lol pull the other one will ya? I posted a pic a few pages back. It’s total balls that you had it under control.

I thought 5 pages in you might want to get passed slaughtering the guy and discussing if there is a wider issue

Not sure I was “slaughtering the guy”, I mostly just said it looked irresponsible from the video and noted that it was odd to admit on the one hand to having scared people and felt the need to apologise, and then on the other to say that it was all fine and there was nothing to apologise for or reflect upon.

Aide from that I’ve mostly just been trying to challenge the “no-one got hurt so it’s fine and anyone who says otherwise is a hysterical alarmist” attitude, which I see a lot in the context of people riding on roads and which I don’t personally like seeing applied to people walking on trails.

In other words, I am trying to move on to a wider problem. It’s just that it’s an even wider one than the one you’re trying to move to, which only considers collision/injury outcomes—which inherently excludes the incident we started with and is therefore less relevant.

It’s funny but here in the mill towns I see idiots driving BMWs, Audis and Mercedes recklessly every day, nobody gets hurt either but it doesn’t half reinforce the prejudices of the other 99.9% of law-abiding drivers.

Tbh, what is really happening is that we are looking at it from 2 different view points. I don’t think this is a problem, you think there is a problem.

My stand point is that if there is a problem even with close passes, then it stands to reason that some of those close passes would convert into collisions and therefore if there are collisions it would be indicative of a wider problem. If there aren’t large numbers of reports of collisions, then it’s not really a problem worth investigating further, as the evidence(lack of collisions) would suggest that the problem is largely just psychological. If there are reports of collisions, then it’s a problem that needs looked into. If there’s a problem I’m not against looking at it and doing something about it. You kinda need to present a viable problem firstly though.

Your stand point seems to be, people are scared, there’s a problem and it’s dangerous. Well not really, if there aren’t any injuries happening because then it’s simply not dangerous, and it doens’t compare like for like to things like the close pass roads initiative at all.

Far as I can see I’m the only one presenting a way of quantifying if there is a problem. You can’t quantify anecdotal evidence. (I reckon you could easily find a larger number of anecdotes of people with a positive view). Even if you look at the original video in the OP, the anecdotal evidence suggests that the vest majority of people are fine with mtbs on the trails, there was only 1 derisory comment from a number of people that were passed.

globalti

Member
It’s funny but here in the mill towns I see idiots driving BMWs, Audis and Mercedes recklessly every day, nobody gets hurt either but it doesn’t half reinforce the prejudices of the other 99.9% of law-abiding drivers.

loads of people get hurt. look I can easily quantify it for you…

Statistics on reported road casualties in Great Britain for the year ending June 2018 shows, there were:
1,770 reported road deaths.
26,610 people killed or seriously injured.
165,100 casualties of all severities, a decrease of 6%