Navratilova in trouble for stating the obvious .

  • This topic has 93 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 3 weeks ago by  kcr.
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  • Navratilova in trouble for stating the obvious .
  • Premier Icon LittleNose
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    You have missed a gender out – those that do not wish to be defined by gender.

    Why not just have two categories
    – open (absolutely anyone)
    – female

    votchy
    Member

    You have missed a gender out – those that do not wish to be defined by gender.

    Would that category be the most contentious of all as there is no level playing field involved as it would be open to all as long as that individual declared themselves non-binary?

    Is the easy answer 4 categories of sport?
    Male
    Female
    Transgender Male
    Transgender Female

    Whilst there’s an obvious sporting fairness to that, if you’re in one of those groups and are really trying to get the rest of the world to see you as a normal woman or man then that sort of thing is going to be massively hurtful and unfair.

    You wouldn’t dream of telling Ussain Bolt that he was being reclassified as “black” rather than “men” to give the rest of the world a chance? They could even have their own seats on the bus and bathrooms to keep them away from the whites.

    Personally I think the only fair outcome is to ‘protect’ the women’s category and reclassify the men’s as “open”, and just like the hemaocrit levels levels in cyclists specify a testosterone and other hormone levels that it’s deemed normal/safe to supplement upto if you’re diagnosed as being lacking in them for whatever reason. Arguably this would be the median for the general population and therefore probably lower than elite athletes and the problem goes away, you can’t identify as an elite athlete, that’s just winning the genetic lottery + training, just because you do the training doesn’t give you a free pass to try and rig the lottery part.

    Dunno if it’s still the case but olympic sailing used to be run that way, some events were “open” and therefore (AFAIK) all men, with some women’s classes, it changed a few years ago to make it 50/50 (probably the same time as track cycling was forced to change to an even split of events).

    natrix
    Member

    Is the easy answer 4 categories of sport?
    Male
    Female
    Transgender Male
    Transgender Female

    But then what about DSD where for example a female is born with internal testes that produce testosterone? It is such a complicated area………………..

    kcr
    Member

    Martina raising her head above the parapet has actually started a discussion.

    It’s a discussion that had been going on for a number of years.

    The issue that needs discussing is the subject of Martina’s article, not her choice of words.

    Exactly, and if you want to have a constructive discussion and actually make some progress, using inflammatory (and inaccurate) language like “cheating” is a poor way to start. Navratilova could have written an article pointing out the problems with existing sporting categories and asking how we address them, without attacking anyone. However, that wouldn’t generate as many clicks.

    TiRed
    Member

    pubmed looks down at the moment, but if you woul dlike some science… From endocrine reviews.

    https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770

    Endocrine Reviews 2018 39 :5 (803 – 829)

    Elite athletic competitions have separate male and female events due to men’s physical advantages in strength, speed, and endurance so that a protected female category with objective entry criteria is required. Prior to puberty, there is no sex difference in circulating testosterone concentrations or athletic performance, but from puberty onward a clear sex difference in athletic performance emerges as circulating testosterone concentrations rise in men because testes produce 30 times more testosterone than before puberty with circulating testosterone exceeding 15-fold that of women at any age. There is a wide sex difference in circulating testosterone concentrations and a reproducible dose-response relationship between circulating testosterone and muscle mass and strength as well as circulating hemoglobin in both men and women. These dichotomies largely account for the sex differences in muscle mass and strength and circulating hemoglobin levels that result in at least an 8% to 12% ergogenic advantage in men. Suppression of elevated circulating testosterone of hyperandrogenic athletes results in negative effects on performance, which are reversed when suppression ceases. Based on the nonoverlapping, bimodal distribution of circulating testosterone concentration (measured by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry)-and making an allowance for women with mild hyperandrogenism, notably women with polycystic ovary syndrome (who are overrepresented in elite athletics)-the appropriate eligibility criterion for female athletic events should be a circulating testosterone of <5.0 nmol/L. This would include all women other than those with untreated hyperandrogenic disorders of sexual development and noncompliant male-to-female transgender as well as testosterone-treated female-to-male transgender or androgen dopers.

    The issue I have with sports science (see salbutamol for example) is the poor treatment of data, rather than the theory. This paper looks at the distribution of testosterone across many publications. How you handle distributions that appear normal (gaussian, bell-shaped), but then extrapolate into the tails, where normality is often violated, is what I have issue with. We know that the elite females are already in the tails of distributions.

    It’s a discussion that had been going on for a number of years

    Bollocks has it.

    Attempts maybe, that are usually shut down by cries of ‘you’re killing us’ or ‘you deny our right to exist’

    Martina is retired from competitive sports so has little to loose. Female athletes risk their careers for speaking out.

    trumpton
    Member

    I would not fancy taking chemicals just to compete. Cannot be good for you and would change your body quite a bit.

    I would not fancy taking chemicals just to compete.

    Not all trans people do it to become world class athletes and ‘cheat’ you know?

    Cannot be good for you and would change your body quite a bit.

    I think that’s kinda the point (both of taking them in the first place and the allegations of cheating being made).

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    I would not fancy taking chemicals just to compete.

    Pro Cycling is not the sport for you.

    kcr
    Member

    Bollocks has it.

    “Gender identity and sport: is the playing field level?”
    https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/695.info
    Published in 2005, and you’ll find lots more discussion if you have a look.

    I don’t see anyone being shut down, and no female athletes are “risking their careers” by raising the issue.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Trying to create an equivalence between racism and this discussion is fractally wrong.

    Put another way, the top “white” and “black” male athletes would still be well in front of the top female (who happens to be black).

    Maybe the place for transgender athletes is in the paralympics?

    Even to my own ears that seems like a weird thing to say, and I’m not sure if its an acceptable answer at any level.

    But look at it this way.

    The roll in the genetic lottery has given someone an advantage (or disadvantage) which makes them unable to compete fairly in certain types of competition (e.g. Think of a wheelchair competitor who would rule in the marathon, and be destroyed in the 100m).

    The para sports system is (as far as I understand it) set up to make decisions like that about groups and categories.

    Why not here?

    I don’t see anyone being shut down

    Specsavers is that way >>>>>>>

    kcr
    Member

    Who’s been shut down then?

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