Viewing 26 posts - 201 through 226 (of 226 total)
  • Naughty Froome?
  • I know Froome has hinted that his levels were higher than the number of puffs he took (and his clinical approach to everything would make it seem ridiculous for him to accidentally have too many), but 20+ puffs on the inhaler in one day would be pretty insane. If mine is off (to the point where just standing up and walking around is having me wheeze/cough/get out of breath) 99% of the time 1 puff will have me fine again for 4 hours. Only when the inhaler is nearly empty would I need 2.

    Also after the inhaler I tend to cough up a lot of rubbish which clears out the lungs, Froome always has a dry cough after the stages.

    Everyone is different though!

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
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    If the majority of a group, when tested, are found to exhibit the same results then it begs the question as to what is “normal”.

    More than anything it begs how you selected your group.

    And if we accept that a level of what we call asthma is normal then why should there be a program of drugs made available to competitors at all?

    That’s a fair but very different question.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
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    More than anything it begs how you selected your group.

    Ah yes, that too 🙂 But let’s say you tested the whole population and found the true incidence to be at least as high as seems to be reported amongst pro athletes.

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
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    Ah yes, that too But let’s say you tested the whole population and found the true incidence to be at least as high as seems to be reported amongst pro athletes

    Fair do, if i recall from an interview on radio 4 earlier in the week (with a chap who did some of the testing) incidence in athletes is about 25% (happy to be corrected) that’s still way below normal.

    If it were 99% we’d call it normal and likely not test for it in the first place. If we could we’d treat for it as a matter of course (see fortified breakfast cereals etc), if we couldn’t we’d just accept it.

    The problem in athletics sports is we want a level playing field, in most things we do that by banning the use of [lots of but not all] substances and allowing certain accommodations to bring the small* percent of people with manageable disadvantage, up to the same base as the others (I’d prefer a horse racing style handicap tbh).

    Its all bs of course, the reason i can’t thrash froome up a hill is biological disadvantage, with good enough drugs i should be able to overcome that disadvantage, but that would be cheating.

    [Pure supposition] Without drugs to manage his asthma froome wouldn’t make the pro circuit[/supposition] but taking meds for that’s fine because “normals” have the same problem and take the same meds.

    Where you should draw the line is a very hard question which [complete guess] comes down to “if John public might suffer you can treat it the same way Joe would, so long as we have no evidence it does anything but treat your condition”* (for me at least I’d just sod it and say fill your boots folks, you want to put that stuff in, more fool you).

    *statistically significant but still <50%

    **another complete guess, i imagine this is the reason managing asthma is more difficult for athletes than Joe public.

    g5604
    Member

    is there not a test to prove asthma ? I think there might be, but regardless if you are struggling to breath mid way through a race, maybe you should withdraw just as you would if you came off your bike and broke your collar bone.

    If it keeps happening, maybe you are not suited to being a pro cyclist just like the 99% of other people who for various genetic reasons will never be a elite athlete.

    Premier Icon bainbrge
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    is there not a test to prove asthma ? I think there might be, but regardless if you are struggling to breath mid way through a race, maybe you should withdraw just as you would if you came off your bike and broke your collar bone.

    If it keeps happening, maybe you are not suited to being a pro cyclist just like the 99% of other people who for various genetic reasons will never be a elite athlete.

    As a lifelong asthmatic it’s this kind of comment that gets me. You want to apply that exclusion to diabetics etc as well? I could hypothetically be an amazing endurance athlete, except for when certain triggers set off my asthma (pollen, cats, cold air etc.). I can control these attacks through salbutamol. Why can’t I race?

    The above has nothing to do with whether Froome doped or not. I can understand theories around blood bags etc., but I can also understand why he might be nailing the salbutamol IF he doesn’t feel able to take a preventer (I.e a cortico steroid). He got vilified for his prednisone TUE, so maybe he’s having to suboptimally manage his asthma. I know from experience that stopping the preventer leaves you open to more severe attacks, which need more salbutamol – indeed the NHS guidance has completely changed on this over the years – the last I was told was that salbutamol was a last resort, and that cortico steroid inhalers were the primary treatment, even for mildish asthma like mine.

    I also haven’t seen mention of nebuliser use either – it would be stupid of his doctor but I can see how dosage could increase significantly with that delivery method.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
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    The other, but related, issue is one of over-compensation, when attempting to level the playing field tilts it too far the other way. For a more immediately visible example, if Oscar Pistorius was winning all his races and setting new records would he still have been allowed to compete against “full bodied” athletes?

    Is it possible that pro cycling teams deliberately select asthmatic riders because they are allowed Salbutomol?

    natrix
    Member

    Bradley Wiggins wife Cath has referred to Froome as a “slithering reptile” http://road.cc/content/news/234018-bradley-wiggins-wife-calls-chris-froome-slithering-reptile

    Stay classy Cath :mrgreen:

    Premier Icon dannyh
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    Onzadog – Member

    I always wanted to be a pro cyclist growing up but I couldn’t cut it at the sharp end because I didn’t have asthma.

    Posted 2 days ago #

    I liked that one.

    Plus, I imagine the physical examination for asthma in pro cyclists is something along the lines of:

    Doctor (cupping the cyclist’s particulars): “Can you just cough for me, please?”

    Cyclist: (Coughs)

    Doctor: “That’s great, thanks”.

    Cyclist: “So my tackle is in order, then?”

    Doctor: “Oh, no, I’m not testing for that – but I can confirm that you do have asthma, though ” (winks).

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
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    Is it possible that pro cycling teams deliberately select asthmatic riders because they are allowed Salbutomol?

    Much more likely is that, if you exercise to the point they do you’ll display symptoms of exercise induced asthma.

    I know I’d be displaying symptoms of actual death tying to achieve what they do let alone maintain it. The various treatment I’d be allowed aren’t going to off set my being rubbish or actually ill.

    If it was genuinely performance enhancing (as opposed to enabling) and since it is permissible everyone would be diagnosed (getting asympathetic dr isn’t difficult) asthmatic in every athletic discipline, they’re not. It’s around a third in team sky, [guardian link] and I’d guess that’s fairly standard across the peloton. It’s significantly higher in swimming (and at a guess a lot lower in discus).

    Premier Icon TiRed
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    is there not a test to prove asthma

    Yes there is. Professional athletes have to submit themselves for a methacholine/allergen challenge. Basically you provoke bronchoconstriction by inhalation of acetycholine and then show that it can be reversed by inhalation of a bronchodilator. It’s known as “reversibility” in the trade. Healthy subjects do not have the same response to challenge.

    Also healthy subjects do not show bronchodilation when given a beta-agonist. As measured by peak flow and FEV1 (amount you can blow out in 1 second). If you use a very sensitive measure (airway conductance using a “body box”), you can just about detect it. I worked on validating bronchodilation in healthy volunteers for a few years with a view to testing new generation long-acting beta-agonists.

    Premier Icon IdleJon
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    Bradley Wiggins wife Cath has referred to Froome as a “slithering reptile” http://road.cc/content/news/234018-bradley-wiggins-wife-calls-chris-froome-slithering-reptile

    Stay classy Cath

    It’ always gets interesting when the wives get get involved. 😆

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    Bitter much Cath?

    So Sky have known about this since Sep 20. I reckon they’ve been desperately trying to recreate the results, in prep for Froome doing a demo for the authorities.

    And the fact that it’s now mid-December suggests they ain’t having much luck.

    Premier Icon TiRed
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    Needs 30 days on a turbo, 4hrs a day, with chronic dosing of salbutamol. Not a nice pharmacokinetic study for anyone!

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    And if he gets a spot test in the meantime does that count as another pop?

    😀

    tpbiker
    Member

    Cath wiggins can f right off.

    Trying to blame froome for doubts over her bloke is pathetic. Clearly she’s as much of an absolute tool as her husband.

    taxi25
    Member

    Not the words of someone who had was suffering that badly he had to take an excessive amount of (or go right up to the limit on) his asthma drugs..

    Someone clearly doesn’t understand that pro cyclists desperately don’t want to show their competitors any sighn of weakness.

    dragon
    Member

    This whole asthama thing is odd though, I have always has asthama, and get it at the start of almost every ride or run. However, when I race I almost never ever get it, even in warm up. I have discussed this with my doctor and they couldn’t come up with an explanation, we did wonder if adrenaline could act as a suppressor, but that is just guessing. However, it does seem odd that Froome’s asthama gets worse during a race, I’d not expect that.

    However, I personally am well off to the side of the bell curve with my asthama. I’ve sat in a room having a full chat with the doctor and tested for values that were so low, that most people with those numbers would be in A&E. I’m a super human 😆

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    Pat McQuaid has waded in.

    Brass necked or what…

    Premier Icon bikebouy
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    FatMcQuid has no place in any commentary in Froome or the UCI’s regard. He’s just a bloke with a big Wallet and a backhander dealing personality.

    The only reason Journo’s flock to him is because he sticks of dog poo.

    hammerite
    Member

    Dragon – as an asthma sufferer for the best part of 35 years (the amount of holes in trouser pockets caused by the point corners of an inhaler I understand this. I very rarely (possibly never) need to take my inhaler mid race. I’ve needed it before and at the end but not during. However, this is just wheezing. When I’m having a full blown attack I can barely move let along get myself out of the house and to a race (my asthma isn’t exercise induced).

    I agree that adrenaline might have a lot to do with it. In the same way that I can go out for a ride at the end of May and feel fine but when I stop I turn in to a sneezing, snotty blood shot eyed mess.

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
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    Needs 30 days on a turbo, 4hrs a day, with chronic dosing of salbutamol. Not a nice pharmacokinetic study for anyone!

    Presumably it also needs replicated dehydration, timed delivery of the Salbutamol, the use of any other medicines he might have been taking at the time – which could, I guess be a medical issue – etc. Almost impossible.

    I guess it depends on whether he needs to show in theory the urine test can misrepresent the actual dosage – in which case you’d have to say it’s a less than ideal way of measuring intake – or that the specific circumstances on that day actually did cause that result. Enter a bunch of lawyers with open wallets…

    Premier Icon bikebouy
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    The UCI ought to have sorted this out sooner.

    avdave2
    Member

    The former British Cycling performance director is correct that some studies have found that athletes who take the legal amount of puffs, particularly if they take a large quantity just before the test, will excrete more than 1,000 ng/ml – but Ukad’s statistics show this does not happen often.

    <i>it</i> only has to happen once to show the test can’t be relied on

    ferrals
    Member

    Another nothing story IMO. I’m beginning to get fed up iwth the guardian, was always my favourite newspaper but seems to be going more and more clickbaity.

Viewing 26 posts - 201 through 226 (of 226 total)

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