My idea of a perfect Enduro bike

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  • My idea of a perfect Enduro bike
  • bwaarp
    Member

    I really really like my Nukeproof Mega, but I also love the idea of a poppier bike like the Cotic Rocket on the jumps. Whose frame design also let’s feel a lot more trail buzz with due to the steel frame/stiffness. Trail feedback is a good thing, it allows you to know what’s going on under the contact patch. Something I have never got is why MTBers whine about trail feedback, Superbike riders whine about the complete opposite usually. I noticed my old mans Nomad confers a lot more trail feedback to the rider than my Mega, despite similar sag, compression and rebound setups.

    I’m also finding that the slacker the better, 66 degree head angles are not enough any more and I run a full 1.5 inch steerer as I find they give even more steering precision than tapered steerers (I’ll be mortified the day I can’t get another one). This means to slacken the Mega I’d need to run offset bushings which rotate/are a pain in the arse and mess with the suspension rate.

    So what I want is something even lower… like the Cotic with a 13.3 inch bottom bracket height, I want the same length wheelbase or longer as my mega, shorter chainstays around the same length as the Cotic and a 64 degree head angle with 160mm forks STOCK – no need for a offset bushings or a 1-1/8th steerer (a tapered steerer wouldn’t be compatible with an angleset in Cotics 44mm headtube). Ideally I’d also like an 18.5 inch seatube. This bike, run with a pretty stiff suspension setup would be my idea of heaven. Steel would be nice as well, just to be different.

    So could Cotic/someone build me such a bike. In short I want a bike that is going to rip my arms off :mrgreen: but rewards and encourages riding aggressively due to it’s stability and confidence inspiring trail feedback.

    goatster
    Member

    Santa Cruz already make the perfect enduro bike. Nomad c. Job done.

    bwaarp
    Member

    Except it has nowhere near the Geo I’m after. My old man’s Alu Nomad is a step back in the direction I want to go. It’s tall and steep, carbon also deadens trail feedback – note Ducati’s hilarious bad love affair with the carbon framed GP bike.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Yep nomad C is up there along with the Blur LTc (67 Head angle with 150mm forks so 66 with a 160 probably)

    Along with a heap of other bikes….

    bwaarp
    Member

    It’s also carbon and not slack enough….

    *sigh*

    Closest I can think of geometry wise would be a Mondraker Dune XR with an angleset of some sort. You’d have to give up your 1.5″ steerer though. Also not sure how it would rate on your suspension action/trail feedback requirements.

    bwaarp
    Member

    I guess the kind of customisation I’m after is what pro level riders get. 😥 What I really need is for Cotic to be able to weld me a custom front triangle. I’ll give them a ring tomorrow. I’d happily pay a lot of money for exactly what I want but not thousands on something that isn’t custom. If not, I’ll buy the Rocket, take the rear triangle off and have someone like prodrive weld me up a custom front triangle.

    Time to swat up on my geometry I think…

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    1.5 steerer is going to screw you. Luckily most folks can’t tell the difference 😉 Lose that requirement and it all opens up.

    (though, when I got my C456, a few people could really feel the difference from the tapered steerer which it doesn’t have)

    Also, trying to apply universal characteristics to a frame material never works.

    bwaarp
    Member

    Barghhhhhhhhhhhhh I thought I’d have to ditch the 1.5 steerer… anyway you still can’t run angleset’s with 44mm headtubes unless you go 1-1/8 and I do like the Cotic.

    So are there any carbon frames that don’t alter the characteristics of the trail vibrations entirely? They’ve all felt alien to me.

    I now want my own jig, a welder and some steel tubing :mrgreen:

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    OK so you want a 64 head angle – why? your heading into DH bike territory there. With a rakey front end it’ll be great until the trail levels off for a flat corner.

    1.5″ not really needed found plenty of stiff 1 1/8th bikes around and tapered seems to work well too.

    As for carbon “Deadening” the feel I found it much better than the Alu versions. Lots of good feedback due to the stiffness of the bike.

    note Ducati’s hilarious bad love affair with the carbon framed GP bike.

    Duley noted – no idea of the relevance though. Note the number of Carbon DH bikes doing very well.

    However if your sticking to your requirements then you either need to pick up a welder or have a look at some thing like Nicoli and their custom tweaked frames or stick a 160 fork in a slack 140 frame 🙂

    ashfanman
    Member

    Last Herb is 65.5 degrees HA with a low BB and short chainstays: link.

    Knolly Chilcotin and Rocky Mountain Slayer also pretty low and slack.

    Or, as a more leftfield choice, what about a Canfield The One? HA is 65.5 degrees with a 160mm fork, so you could get it down to 64 with an angleset… (Link.)

    andeh
    Member

    You might want to drop this guy a line.

    Descendance bikes

    A guy on Southern Downhill (Ride it out) had a custom frame made to his spec. Veeeerrry nice! Pretty cheap too, if I recall. I’ll try and find the build thread.

    bwaarp
    Member

    OK so you want a 64 head angle – why? your heading into DH bike territory there. With a rakey front end it’ll be great until the trail levels off for a flat corner.

    The same reason Fabien Barrel does….because I want a lighter TR250, with 160mm of travel and a full length seat tube. On steep fast stuff the bike would be hilarious and it’d be perfect for Alpine enduro riding.

    On the topic of carbon downhill bikes at the worlds…I think they’d be faster on Alu bikes 😛 (I’m kidding). You are right… the two sports are entirely different, I guess I need to try out some more carbon bikes in that case.

    I’m considering a Nicoli for that reason, but a custom Cotic would be epic. I will have to do my homework with the use of an angleset when picking an off the shelf bike as I don’t want the BB to go below 13.3 inches or the wheelbase to become 1200mm+. Messing round with other lengths can help keep everything in check so that’s why I was looking at going custom.

    EDIT: Thanks for the links guys

    A Rocket with 160mm fork has a 65.7 head angle. If you can put up with a 1 1/8″ steerer then you could probably get a 1.5 degree angleset, and get it down to 64.2. Might even manage 2 degrees off it. It wouldn’t lengthen the top tube, if that’s what you want, but it would lengthen the wheelbase considerably, and drop the BB slightly. Could be enough without the custom frame?

    As for why so slack, Fabien Barel has been riding 64 head angles on his enduro bikes for a few years: http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Fabien-Barels-Mondraker-Foxy-R,2874/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2

    He also helped design the Mondraker Forward Geometry, which is why I recommended the XR. I havent had the chance to try one, but I can certainly see where its coming from, and the design is such a big departure from everything else that I would think its definitely worth a test ride if you can find one.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Mmm. Steel front triangle on the Rocket means relatively straightforward modification ya know, get the nose chopped off and welded back on where you want it (or a 1.5 tube)

    bwaarp
    Member

    A Rocket with 160mm fork has a 65.7 head angle. If you can put up with a 1 1/8″ steerer then you could probably get a 1.5 degree angleset, and get it down to 64.2. Might even manage 2 degrees off it. It wouldn’t lengthen the top tube, if that’s what you want, but it would lengthen the wheelbase considerably, and drop the BB slightly. Could be enough without the custom frame?

    As for why so slack, Fabien Barel has been riding 64 head angles on his enduro bikes for a few years: http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Fabien-Barels-Mondraker-Foxy-R,2874/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2

    He also helped design the Mondraker Forward Geometry, which is why I recommended the XR. I havent had the chance to try one, but I can certainly see where its coming from, and the design is such a big departure from everything else that I would think its definitely worth a test ride if you can find one.

    Yeah I was looking at that frame, they’re selling the forward geometry Dune XR frame only – but I can’t see the 10mm stem anywhere. Does it come with it? I’d like to be able to buy that stem separately. I was thinking of incorporating forward geometry into the little idea I have going – I’m thinking some weird bastard child of the Dune XR and the Cotic with a really slack head angle. All the rock garden stability of a downhill bike, with quicker steering. Mmmmmm Nomnomnom. Need to spend a lot of time playing with/thinking about the ideas I’ve got going.

    It’s times like this I wish I’d done engineering instead of Biomed so I could toy with some of my ideas a bit more in the real world.

    bwaarp
    Member

    Mmm. Steel front triangle on the Rocket means relatively straightforward modification ya know, get the nose chopped off and welded back on where you want it (or a 1.5 tube)

    It’d take a lot of balls to potentially ruin a perfectly decent front triangle though. I don’t think my heart would be able to handle something as lovely as the rocket getting chopped up!

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Might invalidate the warranty eh :mrgreen:

    Hob Nob
    Member

    Santa Cruz already make the perfect enduro bike. Nomad c. Job done.

    Except it’s not though. It’s pretty good, tough, light etc.

    However they have some quirky sizing (silly short TT’s for the size of the bike for example) and it’s quite short in the wheelbase, steep & with long chainstays & a high BB. But then it’s a bike based on nearly a 5 year old design now, so it’s not going to be at the forefront.

    A bigger, burlier TRC would be my ideal Enduro bike 🙂

    Rickos
    Member

    Is a Specidlized Enduro close in geo? Short stays, low bb – not sure about head angle though.

    Hob Nob
    Member

    Good shout, the Enduro’s seem to be getting bigger & bigger though? 165mm travel, that’s too much for 95% of my riding.

    Now if only Specialized sold the new Stumpy Evo carbon frames in the UK 🙂

    trail_rat
    Member

    every time i ride a nomad i think – if only the top tube was longer and the HA slacker – its a waste of all that lovely travel. Held back by angles … its an XC bike with big travel and requires a long stem for long XC rides….. plenty love it but i never saw the point in it.

    goatster
    Member

    Is a bigger burlier trc not a nomad… Same suspension etc. I like to think the nomad has ‘evolved’ over the last 5 years :).
    Run mine on 170 lyriks which slackens it a little, with 11/8 steerer you can use offsets. Sizing wise I’m only short and the sizing is spot on. Bb is fine.
    Stumpy EVO C is a good bike but availability is shocking. Always liked the ltc/2 and rode enduro on it.
    Sb66 anyone?

    Here’s something a little different. Mate runs a nomad c with oversized vivid air 170 forks with offsets. Resulting in higher bb, steeper seat angle and a really slack front end… He loves it.

    goatster
    Member

    50mm stem, 50 mile rides on the nomad. Sizing is individual, if the bike don’t fit try another. I gave up on yetis after trying for years to make a 575 fit. Got a scruz and everything was perfect.

    SOAP
    Member

    2nd hand Pitch with 160 Lyriks. Job done

    wrecker
    Member

    Knolly Chilcotin

    Yep….

    This may sound a bit strange, but would it not be possible to stiffen a 1 1/8 steerer tube by inserting an internal tube to significantly thicken the walls? Do this by heating the steerer and chilling the insert and you should get a very strong mechanical join. Alternatively use epoxy. Obviously the insert would have to replace the star fangled nut so would need a thread tapped into its upper surface for the headset top cap. Then you can use an angleset on a 1 1/8 steerer and still get similar stiffness to a 1 1/2 steerer, just at a weight penalty.

    JCL
    Member

    What you want is the forthcoming Enduro 29″. That thing will be a game changer.

    wrecker
    Member

    What you want is the forthcoming Enduro 29″. That thing will be a game changer.

    Interesting, what makes you think that?
    The 26″ Enduro is nothing special after all. What have the existing AM 29ers got wrong?
    I can think of many that I’d sooner have than an Enduro.

    Hob Nob
    Member

    Is a bigger burlier trc not a nomad… Same suspension etc. I like to think the nomad has ‘evolved’ over the last 5 years 🙂

    TRC & Nomad are very different. About the only thing they share is the VPP system. Nomad Carbon is the same bike as the Mk2 Nomad, which came out in 2008, so design wise its quite long in the tooth now 🙂

    170 LyriK is quite a short fork for it’s travel. With mine, external cup & offsets it was still 67 HA.

    BB was probably my biggest annoyance. Riding another bike with a lower BB just highlighted how much more fun corners were 🙂

    I ran mine with offset bushes – worth bearing in mind, the front shock mount (on the carbon anyway) meant you couldn’t run the offset bush with some shocks, as the shock body fouled on the shock mount point.

    JCL
    Member

    Interesting, what makes you think that?
    The 26″ Enduro is nothing special after all. What have the existing AM 29ers got wrong?
    I can think of many that I’d sooner have than an Enduro.

    Really? The 13 S-Works 26″ is 26lbs…. Has a sub 66 head angle with a 160 Lyrik and 74 seat. What else has those specs?

    If the 29″ weighs 27.5lbs ish with a 66/67 head and 75 seat it’ll be the beginning of the end of 26″ for enduro racing.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    What I really need is for Cotic to be able to weld me a custom front triangle.

    Call Matt at 18 bikes.

    wrecker
    Member

    Really? The 13 S-Works 26″ is 26lbs…. Has a sub 66 head angle with a 160 Lyrik and 74 seat. What else has those specs?

    There’s more to a bike than weight and head angle. It’s not all things to all men, and there are far far better riding bikes out there. Some have steeper HT angles, some are heavier. Some don’t cost £6K and don’t have avid brakes and in-house wheelsets.

    JCL
    Member

    There’s more to a bike than weight and head angle. It’s not all things to all men, and there are far fare better riding bikes out there. Some have steeper HT angles, some are heavier. Some don’t cost £6K and don’t have avid brakes and in-house wheelsets.

    Yeah and they’ve also got the leverage rate perfect, they run a bearing in the rear shock eye and there is no rotation in the front shock eye (I’ll let you work out what that does for suspension sensitivity). The spec on that bike is great apart from the fork. Maybe you should ask all the SRAM pro’s how they cope with such crap brakes? In house wheel set? They have DT internals/spokes and the rims, while not Enve tough, are pretty durable for carbon.

    What would you rather ride then?

    wrecker
    Member

    I’ll let you work out what that does for suspension sensitivity

    That doesn’t matter to me if the bike doesn’t ride and feel how I like it to. For £6K, I can have whatever I want pretty much. I sooner have a Nomadc, or a chilcotin, or a Mojo HD, or a SB66c and that money would assure a fully pimped bike.
    It’s all about preference and you obviously like them, whereas I prefer other things. For example, my LTc is steeper than my 5 spot was and has a higher BB and I actually prefer it on everything. I’ll also never own a 29er. Your tastes differ to mine. There’s no right or wrong IMHO.

    Hi Bwaarp.

    We do have an angle headset to suit the 44mm headtube with tapered forks now – they are just due back from anodizing.

    Also – though we dont stock a 1.5 steerer compression ring / upper bearing cover you can use two of our ‘lower’ headcups with your 1.5″ steerer tube fork, re-using your current headsets upper parts – so it is possible.

    Drop us an e-mail if you would be interested.
    Thanks!

    JCL
    Member

    That doesn’t matter to me if the bike doesn’t ride and feel how I like it to. For £6K, I can have whatever I want pretty much. I sooner have a Nomadc, or a chilcotin, or a Mojo HD, or a SB66c and that money would assure a fully pimped bike.

    Boutique bikes with half arsed R&D don’t seem like good VFM to me. Messing around with crappy leverage rates just to get a new marketing angle. Sure you might be able to pimp it out with the latest bling that will do nothing for how fast you can ride…. I’ll stick with the guys who have an R&D department of super solid riders and real engineers working out the kinematics.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    I would bloody love one of the new Carbon Enduros, just in case anyone’s giving them away.

    Or the carbon Spicy. I’m not too fussy.

    wrecker
    Member

    Boutique bikes with half arsed R&D don’t seem like good VFM to me. Messing around with crappy leverage rates just to get a new marketing angle

    With due respect, I trust the design engineers more than I will ever trust some dude on the internetz. Noel Buckley in particular has most probably forgotten more about engineering than we’ll ever know. I’d back him against any spesh engineer.
    My crappy leverage rate santa cruz is considerably better for me than any spesh bike has ever been, probably ever will be. I’d also class Doerfling, Lopes, Blenky, Minaar and Peaty as pretty solid riders 😀

    bwaarp
    Member

    The worst bike I’ve owned was a Specialized 08 Sx Trail….no matter what I did the shock setup always felt weird.

    However I do like the look of the carbon enduro. But I’d need to ride one as I still have not ridden a carbon bike I liked.

    JCL
    Member

    With due respect, I trust the design engineers more than I will ever trust some dude on the internetz. Noel Buckley in particular has most probably forgotten more about engineering than we’ll ever know. I’d back him against any spesh engineer.
    My crappy leverage rate santa cruz is considerably better for me than any spesh bike has ever been, probably ever will be. I’d also class Doerfling, Lopes, Blenky, Minaar and Peaty as pretty solid riders

    Come to Whistler BP around Crankworks and check out Specialized R&D shredding the trails on their and the competitors bikes. These guys are team riders trying to replay info to the “designers”, they are the engineers… That is the difference.

    If you want to talk leverage rates, a rise/falling/rise rate of most VPP’s is the last thing a suspension designer not influenced by marketing would come up with. In fact Santa Cruz have spent the last 5 years trying to engineer out the rate change.

    dans160
    Member

    Or buy my SS1 frame. Shameless plug, sorry.

    Short rear end 16.75inches, Slack HA 66.5 without angleset or slacker dropouts (65.5 with slacker dropouts or upto 64 with an angleset), low bb 13.5 inches, comes with a Bos Stoy, takes a front mech and has routing for a dropper post. My current build is around 32.5 lbs.

    Now you can all start slagging off Intenses. Again.

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