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  • My dear old things, it's STW TMS!
  • Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    There’s a lot of chat (rightly) about how much the batting relies on Root, but he’s only 30. When Anderson and Broad are gone? Ollie Robinson is another county trundler who looks good on sporty english wickets, but will get murdered in Aus or SA. See also Craig Overton…

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    It’s a shit state of affairs if England don’t make serious attempt at this chase. It is a very enticing declaration and they have a chance to snatch a win from a game where they have been second best most of the time. 🤷‍♂️

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    No intent at all from England. Less than 2 an over, in a game that doesn’t even count towards the Test championship.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57321098

    “England v New Zealand: Joe Root wants home side to entertain Lord’s crowd”

    pile of bollocks.

    TMS said that NZ might have set the target because there’s a chance they’ll need to defend / bowl at 250-300 against India in a couple of weeks time. England equally might need to chase 250 on a last day to win a game or series…… what are we learning from this, and are the crowd being entertained?

    Premier Icon dickyhepburn
    Free Member

    Total yawnfest. Another example of England’s lack of ability to bat to suit the situation. This was an opportunity to have a knock and build confidence. Admire NZ attitude, wish we had some of that too

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Rumours abound the ECB are trying to locate cagoule man to try to provide some semblance of last day entertainment

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/cricket/57377362

    Premier Icon spacemonkey
    Free Member

    No way were England going to even attempt going for the win. They had their arses handed to them in India and without Stokes and Buttler they’re 1) low of batting confidence, and 2) devoid of natural attacking talent.

    Had the rain not appeared yesterday we’d probably be seeing a markedly different fifth day.

    Premier Icon dickyhepburn
    Free Member

    This performance just reaffirms their lack of confidence, having a go by keeping the scorecard turning taking singles and shots when they come surely would have helped them even if they’d lost they would have remembered the middle ground between blocking and slogging.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    the middle ground between blocking and slogging

    Just by looking ‘busy’ they could have dragged the fielders around and built a bit of momentum without really even trying.

    Premier Icon dickyhepburn
    Free Member

    Moral victory to NZ, they’ve kept going. England would have liked to come off, to have given up. Next game is lost already.

    Premier Icon Klunk
    Free Member

    Next game is lost already.

    Premier Icon LeeW
    Full Member

    Right decision to suspend him pending the investigation.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    Right decision to suspend him pending the investigation.

    2nd best decision for me. They (the ECB) would have gained a lot of respect if they had sent him home after day 1 and if they had lost so be it. Not sure if you could have had a replacement fielder in those circumstances.

    I’m in two minds about him seemingly carrying on for the last 4 days regardless in terms of the performance he was able to produce and his general ‘unbowed’ attitude. You could call it professional. Or you could call it not bothered. Does a unapologetic racist/sexist actually care about being found out? Apart from the reading of a prepared statement, that’s how he came across to me.

    Premier Icon grum
    Full Member

    It was a terribly dull and uninspiring response from England but had they gone down in a blaze of glory and failed they would have been pilloried for that also. It does seem a shame when NZ made a very sporting declaration and England didn’t respond in kind.

    I’m in two minds about him seemingly carrying on regardless in terms of the performance he was able to produce and his general ‘unbowed’ attitude.

    Eh?

    After play, he apologised, saying he was “embarrassed” and “ashamed”.

    “I am sorry, and I have certainly learned my lesson today,”

    Unbowed?

    Are you suggesting he should have played badly to show how sorry he was? The lad had his England debut ruined because of some puerile stuff he posted on twitter when he was 18, I feel for him. I’m glad twitter wasn’t around when I was 18.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    He’s still a trundler, though.

    Roland Jones
    Overton
    Etc

    He’ll get tw*tted into the middle of next week in Aus/SA etc.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    Unbowed?

    I’d say so. He read a prepared statement very well. But that was it.

    Are you suggesting he should have played badly to show how sorry he was?

    The ECB should have given him the mother of all roastings behind the scenes (when not kicking themselves in the nuts repeatedly for not doing their due diligence) and told him he was only still on the field for the good of the team.

    But in his situation I’d have been doing a pre professional era rugby try style celebration (i.e. none) and keeping my head down. Not this

    some puerile stuff he posted on twitter when he was 18, I feel for him. I’m glad twitter wasn’t around when I was 18.

    Yes and no. I spend my days working with 17&18 year olds. Only the wronguns post the shit he did.

    Premier Icon grum
    Full Member

    But in his situation I’d have been doing a pre professional era rugby try style celebration and keeping my head down. Not this

    He’s just got out a double centurion, on his test debut, and you expect him to sheepishly nod and shake hands with his team-mates?

    Yes and no. I spend my days working with 17&18 year olds. Only the wronguns post the shit he did.

    If you work with 17 & 18 year olds it’s a shame that you’re writing some of them off already.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    He’s just got out a double centurion, on his test debut, and you expect him to sheepishly nod and shake hands with his team-mates?

    Yep – totally. Could not have put it better. That would have been the correct attitude of a man doing his best for a team he knows his past actions had put in an embarrassing position (given the initiative launched that very morning).

    If you work with 17 & 18 year olds it’s a shame that you’re writing some of them off already.

    If I deal with them at 17/18 (with the sort attitude he was showing at that age) and then when you hear about what that year group are up to in later life and the ones that were knobs at 17/18 are still being knobs at 25, is that writing them off?

    Racists/sexists mostly get better know when to hide it, rather than stop being racist/sexist.

    Premier Icon dantsw13
    Free Member

    I’m in 2 minds over England’s tactics.

    It was a chance for a win, and give something to the crowd.

    But……

    How many times have we criticised England’s inability to fight & stay in? Sibley did the job he is in the side to do.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    I’m in 2 minds over England’s tactics.

    I’m not. They didn’t need to tee off from ball 1 Big Bash style. Just a bit of nurdling and taking some singles would have set the right tone and maybe persuaded Williamson to alter his tactics. You can review at the end of each over whether you are still going for it or not.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Full Member

    I have a lot of time for how England handled the chase as I think had they gone for it, they may well have found themselves in the proverbial very quickly.

    You have to remember we have a pretty limited batting order at the moment. Neither Burns or Sibley score quickly, Crawley is out of form (and has been since he hit that double), Lawrence and Pope both have potential but no runs to their name and Bracey is on debut. If you had Stokes and Buttler (and Bairstow?) in there you may have had a go, but not with that current team.

    I’m on the fence re. Robinson. Those tweets were not good at all, and a conversation needs to be had both with him and whoever does the due diligence at the ECB. The rumour is that he’s always had a bit of a reputation so someone should definitely have been checking his history. But, plenty of people are idiots at 18 and turn themselves around once they see more of life, I don’t know enough of him to know if that’s the case here. I think a suspension and some strong words behind the scenes are the right move.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    I have a lot of time for how England handled the chase as I think had they gone for it, they may well have found themselves in the proverbial very quickly.

    There’s a yawning chasm between Root’s words (we want to win all seven tests) and deeds. As others have said, by being just a little more proactive, they could’ve kept the scoreboard moving quickly enough to make a decision about whether to go for it or not. Equally, had a couple of quick wickets fallen, I don’t think anyone would’ve complained if they then decided to shut up shop.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Full Member

    I just don’t think they felt they had the quality or consistency of batting for that kind of chase.

    Ignore the openers and Root, how many runs do you think Crawley, Lawrence, Pope and Bracey could get between then? On recent performances, 80 maybe if they’re lucky? So you lose the openers early as they’ve been told to go and play some shots, and you’re suddenly replying on an out of form middle order and a bowler on debut to hold an end up? No chance. Take the draw and move on.

    Premier Icon roverpig
    Full Member

    The best defence for their negative tactics seems to be that they were right to be negative as they aren’t that good. But do you really want to tell the opposition that you know you aren’t very good? It’s hardly going to drive fear into the hearts of India or the Aussies let alone the team we have to play again this week. And what’s the point of saying that you want to win all 7 tests if at the first opportunity you don’t even try? I’ve never rooted for the opposition before but I won’t be at all sorry to see NZ give us a kicking in the second test.

    Premier Icon grum
    Full Member

    But do you really want to tell the opposition that you know you aren’t very good?

    Missing their two best attacking batsmen though. If Stokes and Buttler were there I’m pretty sure they would have had a go.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I get that no-one likes to lose a test or a series and the likelihood of a successful run chase was down around 15-20%. But we had no intent whatsoever, the ask was for around 3.5 an over, and we were down in the 1. somethings for half of the innings. NZ have a very good attack and I know it’s easy to say we should have tried to go along at 2-3’s – hardly a massive ask on paper – but by being so passive we allowed NZ to bowl at us, never asking a question of their bowlers or fields.

    Root himself – finished with 40 at SR of 56 but was on 4 after 38 balls, even if Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Pope aren’t the dashing strokeplayers that eg: Stokes or Buttler are, Root could have set an example and worked the field a bit more than he did.

    Of course, Buttler and Bairstow and Stokes would have made a different fist of it, but NZ wouldn’t have set BBS that target.

    Premier Icon dantsw13
    Free Member

    Scoring at 4/over in a test is way harder than an ODI. No fielding restrictions/bowler limits. Worn pitch/rough for spinners, plus a full width crease for hiding the ball. NZ bowlers are no mugs on a nibbling pitch either.

    I bet there are posts a few pages back on this thread criticising England for not batting out draws.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    We didn’t need to score at 4 an over. If we’d rotated strike for 2.5 and got to 100, 120 for 3 or 4 in 40-50 overs then we’d have had an option. We left ourselves nowhere to go.

    There will come a time when we will need to chase a total like that and I hope our tactics are not to piss about and then wait for Buttler or Stokes to do it for us. We had an opportunity to learn something yesterday about how to set up a controlled run chase against a decent attack on a decent 4/5 day pitch, and learned nothing. NB, set up, not necessarily achieve it.

    And at this time, and after Root’s pronouncement that he wanted to entertain the crowds, I just thought it was very poor.

    Premier Icon dantsw13
    Free Member

    Sadly we had 4 ducks in the first innings, with an inexperienced team all playing for their places/future. In 6 months time nobody will remember that you only got 10 trying to make a game of it.

    Premier Icon cb
    Full Member

    I’d suggest that England line up over achieved against a team due to appear in the Test Final. Lords, partcularly as a first test in a series, doesn’t seem to get England great results at the best of times.

    I wouldn’t listen to a word Root says about entertaining – he’s become an ECB robot, can’t remember the last time he said something that someone else had written down for him.

    Premier Icon grum
    Full Member

    Government are now wading in with their opinions about Robinson, oh dear. Even though I thought it was harsh the Dowden and Bojo can piss right off with their anti woke culture war populist BS.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    “PM with past track record of racist and sexist comments in ‘nothing to see here’ shock”

    Lovely little ‘when did you stop beating your wife’ opportunity for SKS at PMQ this week, if he fancies it.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    Government are now wading in with their opinions about Robinson, oh dear.

    It follows similar comments about the football team taking the knee. Appealing to their base, I guess.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    Appealing to their base, I guess.

    Yep.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    Mike Carberry nails it:

    “Robinson spoke about educating himself, but what is he talking about? I would be very interested to know. I am a black man and I have never needed any education to speak to my white friends.”

    What he is actually saying is “we all know that talking about ‘educating oneself’ is a meaningless platitude put out to sound good. It is highly unlikely he has actually done anything at all proactively and is only sorry now because he got caught”.

    I don’t see Robinson as a political person, nor do I think he is a card-carrying member of the NF. I think he is a thick lad with a few racist influences in his life who wanted to appear to be the big man with some posts he though were ‘edgy’ and ‘cool’. Sometimes I wish people would just be honest about how their need for ‘acceptance’ can make them do stupid stuff. Remember this wasn’t just racism, it was ‘lads on tour’ sexism too. Some of the stories I have heard about county cricket would make anyone’s eyes water (bunch of young, athletic, tanned blokes who regularly spend 3 consecutive nights away from home as a ‘gang’ and know that there are certain things that can be got away with).

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    very much this, both Carberry’s comments and the culture in cricket.

    The excuses that he was ‘only’ 18 and it was some time ago – it was 9 years, I know it wasn’t quite as front and centre as it is now but it’s not as if it was more acceptable then. There is no way he wouldn’t have known what he was tweeting was racist, and while I have sympathies with the culture of trying to fit in that create a situation like that, it can’t be excused. We want people to stand up to racism and bigotry, however hard it is, not play along to fit in, or at best ignore it – I didn’t do it so I’m innocent still isn’t quite good enough.

    ECB are also according to the BBC investigating a second England player. Who’s trembling behind their coffin at nets this morning? comment ‘in due course’ makes me wonder if it’s a more senior member of the set up……

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57393217

    Premier Icon grum
    Full Member

    There is no way he wouldn’t have known what he was tweeting was racist, and while I have sympathies with the culture of trying to fit in that create a situation like that, it can’t be excused.

    I don’t think it can be ‘excused’ as such, but I think the timing and the way it came out was rather shitty. But contrary to convert I do think people can change, and I do think young men in particular at 18 can be very unsure of themselves and desperate to be approved of by their peers or whatever.

    He was at Yorkshire wasn’t he, which is a club with a history of problems with racism. I just think partly it’s easy to pile on Robinson about these tweets, as if somehow that’s the problem fixed, when actually there’s a much wider problem in cricket/society in general.

    “Robinson spoke about educating himself, but what is he talking about? I would be very interested to know. I am a black man and I have never needed any education to speak to my white friends.”

    The difference presumably is that Carberry didn’t grow up in a culture where people of other races were routinely mocked/looked down on/discriminated against etc. I’m not saying it’s ok but the situations aren’t directly comparable.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    I’m returning to this briefly to say something I forgot to say before….

    “I am sorry, and I have certainly learned my lesson today,”

    For me this was a damning and telling comment. He could have said that in the intervening years he has learnt to appreciate the damage comments like he has made could have on others. But no, he said he learnt his lesson the day the comments had a direct influence on his own career – on him. 7 years might have past but the lesson only happen today. When he learnt his lesson today, he learnt that being a knob can have a long term impact on yourself and you can be found out at an inopportune moment in the future. That’s nice and all and will help him navigate the world without offending people but that’s not what we needed to hear. We needed to hear that he is not that person. The fact that he is now just a more stealthy racist or misogynist is not really the point.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    I’m expecting Boult to be a real handful with the new conker this morning. He’s a lovely bowler.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    Matt Henry not so much. He bowls a heavy ball and is a real tryer, but gun barrel straight a lot of the time.

    Premier Icon Houns
    Full Member

    5000!

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