MTBing hijacked by the big money brigade ?

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  • MTBing hijacked by the big money brigade ?
  • Premier Icon maxtorque
    Subscriber

    I just like to let my riding do the talking, rather than the ££ of my bike…………

    (unfortunately my riding is saying: “Sh*t, watch out for that tree, don’t brake there, look where you’re going man, no, no, no and no, that’s NOT how you jump, good g*d, you’re fracking hopeless man” 😉

    The reason I love companies like On-One, Ribble, Canyon etc is because they offer kit that does the job for a more sensible amount of money cut out the middleman, buy direct (or from sources overseas) and sell direct, which does occasionally have legal ramifications and often screws over bike shops trying to make a living.

    FTFY.

    Premier Icon nemesis
    Subscriber

    When I bought a bike in 2006 that retailed at £2,700 it was up there near the top end of what you could buy without going boutique or custom

    I really don’t think that’s right. I worked in the bike trade from ’96 to ’98 and we sold bikes up to £4k. There were plenty of £3k bikes.

    I do think that there are more bikes at the silly money prices now (eg £5k+) but as always, they’re mainly just catalogue models, there as dream bikes for kids to drool over and then buy the cheaper models from the brand instead. That ‘cycling has become the new golf’ means that there are more people willing to buy a £5k+ bike IMO, particularly as bikes cost peanuts next to midlife crisis cars.

    What it doesn’t really mean IMO is that the bikes you really see out on the trails have got loads more expensive – certainly not if you consider how good they are now.

    hora
    Member

    The reason I love companies like On-One, Ribble, Canyon etc is because they offer kit that does the job for a more sensible amount of money cut out the middleman, buy direct (or from sources overseas) and sell direct, which does occasionally have legal ramifications and often screws over bike shops trying to make a living.

    But then that hurts the big slice that the loveable shop community hub thats there to help poor riders who would like to get into biking/ontop the trails with their charity.

    You weren’t there, man…

    ‘nam? as in Chelt’nam? 😉

    wrecker
    Member

    Every single one of the golfing cyclists I know are leg shaving roadies. Pinarello seems to be very popular (looks good on the audi). I don’t know a single MTBer who regularly plays golf (or ever has).

    Jamie
    Member

    Personally, I thought Canyon, when I looked at their CX bikes, were quite dear.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Singlespeed_Shep – Member

    MTB is certainly the new golf.

    I agree, here is a round of the local golf course last month…

    But then that hurts the big slice that the loveable shop community hub thats there to help poor riders who would like to get into biking/ontop the trails with their charity.

    😆

    Your views are already well known Hora. I was merely presenting the another side of the argument.

    It’s true – On-One etc. do provide good kit at amazing prices, but like most things – there’s a catch somewhere, and in this instance one of them is the initial hands-on fitting and local customer service.

    I’ve been on the other end of the Ribble ‘amazing prices!’ while working in a bike shop. As Ribble imported Campag there was no way we could ever match their prices (there were loads of Campag importers in the ’90s, whereas Shimano worked purely with Madison – anything else tended to come in through grey channels), but riders would buy cheaper Campag and then expect my shop to fit it. We did, at full workshop rates, probably negating the benefit of buying cheaply and then waiting three days for delivery. However, my point is that it was an unfair business practice, of which ultimately Campag are arguably to blame.

    Anyway, how are your kneepads? 😉

    stoffel
    Member

    I’ve noticed a steep increse in the cost of high-end components and bikes in the last 10 years, but the vast bulk of the cycle market is at the sub-£300 end, so this ‘hijacking’ only affects a very small minority. Yes, companies have ramped prices up, but that’s because affluent yet insecure men feel the need for expensive lifestyle products. Look at golf; you can pay over £1000 for a metal stick with a bit of wood on the end of it (and you need a set of 10 or more). Atleast bikes keep you fit and healthy.

    Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn’t as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit. Manufacturers want you to keep spending, so they introduce new standards all the time, and market new ‘features’, but the kit itself isn’t all that good. Practicalyy all the bike mechanics I know say that newr stuff wears out/breaks more quickly, and needs replacing more often.

    mikewsmith
    Member

    We did, at full workshop rates,

    My mate fits CRC stuff as most people are inept and order something wrong which he sells them at full RRP 🙂

    hora
    Member

    Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn’t as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit

    I’m no road-expect but my Ultegra 6800 is dog shit. Plastic, flimsy-feeling but worse still- it shifts clunkingly. Even my old SRAM and 2002 XTR combo was noticeably smoother.

    hora
    Member

    My 2002 XTR rear mech gave up just last month..

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    stoffel – Member

    Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn’t as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit.

    There’s probably some truth in that, I’ve got an old mountain exage mech in the garage which is still going strong, today’s XTR isn’t likely to be going in 20 years or whatever. But at the same time, this is partly the desire for lightness, that one’s made of bricks. And frankly a shift in desirability- most people seem to want performance today over durability, we don’t often expect bikes to last a decade

    Premier Icon nemesis
    Subscriber

    My ’96 XTR rear mech is still doing sterling duty on my CX bike. Mind you the main pivot did seize after 3 years due to corrosion but some disassembly and polishing fixed that and it’s been fine since.

    I agree that some components aren’t as durable now but as said, that’s the price for lighter weight.

    Premier Icon BillOddie
    Subscriber

    Would I like a 5K+ superbike? Yes.
    Can I justify one? No.
    Would it markedly make my riding more enjoyable? Probably not, as I’m finding riding a rigid 29er a hoot round my way.

    That being said I would really like a Chromag 29er, but will probably end up with a On-One Parkwood in a year or so.

    hora
    Member

    Would I like a 5K+ superbike?

    no.

    I’d worry about it, its condition, the Peaks gritstone, the rockstrikes, how I store it in the car, the chance it could be pinched from the car etc.

    Mountain biking in the UK (outside of most trail centres) is hard wear and tear on kit.

    Would I like a 5k+road bike

    YESSSS PLEASE

    Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn’t as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit.

    Can you back this up? Not a slight – I’m genuinely interested. I ride a reasonable amount, have worked in the trade and as a guide, but haven’t noticed a massive deteriation in product build/material quality.

    Manufacturers want you to keep spending, so they introduce new standards all the time, and market new ‘features’, but the kit itself isn’t all that good.

    Things like the Aheadset? Early versions weren’t too hot, but the logic behind it is sound. Similarly tapered headtubes – PITA if you’re riding a frame with a ‘regular’ headtube, but it’s the bottom race in a headset that takes the pounding. Makes sense to make it a better load-bearing structure.

    There are a lot of ‘standards’ of debatable merit, but I do believe that, on the whole, most new standards offer some sort of improvement. For instance, I love HT2 bottom brackets compared to HT1 or tapered, but I am looking forward to a standard that has decent sized bearings inside a more weather-resistant unit.

    Practicalyy all the bike mechanics I know say that newr stuff wears out/breaks more quickly, and needs replacing more often.

    But does it perform better?

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    Isn’t anyone from the “big money brigade” going to contribute here?

    All getting a bit one-sided.

    mikewsmith
    Member

    chakaping – Member
    Isn’t anyone from the “big money brigade” going to contribute here?

    All getting a bit one-sided.
    I did but I was ignored though mine hardly qualifies as only close to 5k RRP but I did get a good deal and the AU$ is actually worth something so it makes the £ figure seem even higher.

    Anyway global market people your currency is shit!

    We all run XX1 and all that gubbins here on our pub bikes you poor pikey gits!

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    Isn’t anyone from the “big money brigade” going to contribute here?
    All getting a bit one-sided.

    *Sticks head above parapet* *again*

    You called?

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    *Sticks head above parapet* *again*

    You called?

    Are you the guy with two new carbon Santa Cruz? You’ll do!

    Back to the original question – shouldn’t it be more like “Is MTB having a shot at the big-money brigade”? Since it’s not compulsory to spunk £5k on a so-called “superbike” and we’ve established that there are some great budget bikes around.

    If anything my tastes are getting less refined, having seen how good current SLX kit is.

    jobro
    Member

    Well I do have a couple of £5K bikes but also a steel framed one with CANTILEVER brakes so I guess that cancels them out.

    If anything my tastes are getting less refined, having seen how good current SLX kit is.

    As said on page 1 – I’m on Deore (and an SLX clutch mech).

    My 9spd XT / XTR was sold at the weekend. 😕

    stoffel
    Member

    Can you back this up? Not a slight – I’m genuinely interested.

    Well, it’s based on empirical evidence, rather than ‘scientific’ tests, but the consensus is that older kit lasts longer, and newer stuff seems to wear out/break quite quicly . I have original M900 XTR mechs that have seen over 20 years use, yet newer M960- stuff seems not to have lasted that long at all before having worn out pivots etc. My XTR M950 shifters and rear mech are stll goingstrong,but I’ve known people who’ve had more recent kit wear out within 2-3 years. A pair of recent XT shifters (ca. 2010) laste me just 18 months before wearing out. And of course square taper v HT2 bbs. The later beingmeasured in terms of months of longevity, compared to possibly even decades for the former. Shimano et al don’t want you to keep your stuff runningfor 20+ years,they want you to buy new stuff every 2 or 3.

    But does it perform better?

    In ‘real world’ use; maybe for a short time, before it starts to wear out. Stuff like aheadset; maybe more conveneint for servicing. But a properly serviced old Cmapag/Dura Ace headset can and do run for decades. Many of us aren’t all that interested in thelatest shiny gadgets; we want our bikes to perform relaibly for a long time. A lot of current kit isn’t designed to do that.

    Premier Icon julians
    Subscriber

    Not sure whether to comment or not on this thread. But I guess my bike would be classed as a ‘big money’ bike. Its an Ibis mojo HD, and I guess it cost about £5k in total, although its been upgraded over the years to get to this point, rather than just being a single £5k purchase. Theres no ‘justifiable’ reason for buying a top end bike, unless you’re a pro, people buy them because they want one, and they can afford it, so why not?

    Is it better than a bike costing half as much? probably, but not by much, its certainly not twice as good, you’re definitely into diminishing return territory once you get past the mid range bikes, whatever they are.

    My first full suss was a specialised enduro, bought in 2005 for £1700 in the sales, I’ve still got it, in fact I’m riding it tonight because the Mojo is broken. Its just as capable as the mojo going downhill, but its a bit tougher uphill because its heavier and bobs a lot.

    I started on a £300 claud butler in the mid 90’s , back then I thought that was a lot of money to spend on a bike, but there were loads of people riding round on 2-3k bikes back then, and I thought they were crazy to spend that on a bike. I couldnt afford to spend that on a bike back then, but now I can, so I have , why not? may as well spend it on things you enjoy, cant take it with you.

    Its not like there arent any good bike for under a grand, people can still buy good bikes for reasonable money, it just that now I think there is more choice at the upper end.

    For what its worth, if I was replacing the mojo now, I’d probably go for the mid range YT capra, what does that cost ~£2k? its probably slightly better than my mojo at what I’d want it to do and costs half as much.

    ninfan
    Member

    Many years ago, back hen goalposts were made of knitted wool, it used to be the case that one of the advantages of buying top end kit like XTR was that it was fully rebuildable

    that was, of course, if the importer ever had the spares in stock…

    Premier Icon nemesis
    Subscriber

    That really was MANY years ago. XTR from the mid 90s certainly isn’t rebuildable.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    Guilty 🙂 also have a very nice road bike of comparable value to aforementioned SC’s. (For balance, I also have a secondhand single speed inbred and a trek 1.5 that still get ridden so it’s not all hyperbling bikes 😉 )

    Though I would say I’m probably not your typical ‘big money brigade’ type. I earn the national average wage*, don’t own a car (or even have a drivers licence, though this will change in due course) and I’m a lodger in a friends house. I also don’t have a family to provide for.

    I’ve always had nice bikes relative to my income, MTBing, and more recently road, has been a massive part of my life for the last 15 years, so why shouldn’t i have the nicest of the nice? It’s not like I’m Jonny Stockbroker who has read an article in a fashion mag, gone down to his nearest bicycle emporium and asked for the most expensive one *cough*Gary Kemp*cough* though it’s his money, and his to spend how he pleases.

    *in case you’re wondering how I have the bikes I do on the wage I earn, it’s nothing to do with it. Earlier this year I inherited a considerable amount of money that I barely knew what to do with, aside from what bikes to buy.

    So, there you have it. My flameproof suit is donned, do your worst.

    stoffel
    Member

    people buy them because they want one, and they can afford it, so why not?

    I can ‘afford’ it, but I just don’t see the point. A super expensive bike wouldn’t get ridden as much as my tattyold hybrid, so it would be a bit of a waste of money. Just because you can, doen’t necessarily mean you should. Nothing wrong with having nice things, but not all of us are so materialistic. One day I’ll get myself round to having a nice custom frame made, that’s about the only real indulgence I’d think worthwhile. Otherwis it’s a bit like just going and buying the latest top end BMW, when you could have bought a lovely old Lamborghini etc. Just because something’s expensive, doesn’t mean it’s ‘special’. And ‘special’ need not cost a fortune.

    Premier Icon nemesis
    Subscriber

    Having nice things doesn’t make you materialistic. Believing that things are more important than people and other aspects of life makes you materialistic.

    so it would be a bit of a waste of money. Just because you can, doen’t necessarily mean you should.

    Lucky we’ve got you to define absolutely what is an isn’t acceptable.

    stoffel
    Member

    Lucky we’ve got you to define absolutely what is an isn’t acceptable.

    I’m doing nothing of the sort. I just don’t personally see the point of going and buying something ‘bling’ off the shelf, just because you ‘can’. Where’s the funin that? Unless you’re just buying it to show off, then that’s a bit pathetic. If you spent £7k ona bike you ride every day, then fantastic. I know a guy who’s spent thousands on fishing gear, but he fishes every weekend, rain or shine, so fair enough.

    Premier Icon julians
    Subscriber

    I can ‘afford’ it, but I just don’t see the point. A super expensive bike wouldn’t get ridden as much as my tattyold hybrid, so it would be a bit of a waste of money

    and thats great for you, nobody is forcing you to buy an expensive bike.

    Conversely , mine gets ridden whenever I have a few spare hours (which isnt as often as I’d like, but is as often as it can be), and so far kept for 4 years, so in my situation I consider it an acceptable use of my money. Its not about being materialistic either, Its literally about it being at the time and in my opinion (and when I’m spending the money only my opinion matters) the best bike I could afford, doesnt matter if its only a little bit better than something costing half the price, for me, it was what I wanted, I could afford it, so why not? At the time I could have spent even more and got something that was better than the mojo, but I decided that where I would draw the line was with the bike I bought, you decided your line was with the bike you bought, and the chap who inherited his money above decided the line was with the bike he bought.

    good job the bike manufacturers realise this, and make bikes for all budgets, tastes and disciplines.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    My £200 hybrid gets ridden more than any of my bikes but it’s also kind of supremely fit for purpose so it’d be daft to spend more. That doesn’t deter me from spending that much on haribo alone for my mountain biking.

    ahwiles
    Member

    of course,

    …v brakes…

    when i meant canti’s.

    i remember saving up for, and buying, and excitedly fitting a set of dia-compe something-or-others.

    they were completely crap, but they were very light, and looked beautiful!

    edit:

    986’s?

    sigh, brakes werebrakes crap back then.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    four Bloody Pages!?

    Right then!

    I built a fairly expensive full-sus up earlier this year. It gets ridden most days and goes for a couple of proper rides each week. I hired a similar but not as nice Canyon Spectral last week in Mallorca and the difference in the suspension’s abilities was vast – Fox ‘Evolution’ vs Pike and Cane Creek – worth every penny of the extra cost!

    Something lighter, more carbon, more custom, etc might cost a ton more but functional improvements would be marginal at best. But if you have the money, why not? It’s a fraction of the cost of even the depreciation on a fancy car and unless you’re one of those (possibly mythical?) trail centre posers at least mountain bikes get used for their intended purpose, unlike every off-roader that never gets its tyres dirty or every supercar that is permanently stuck in urban traffic!

    Well, it’s based on empirical evidence, rather than ‘scientific’ tests, but the consensus is that older kit lasts longer, and newer stuff seems to wear out/break quite quicly . I have original M900 XTR mechs that have seen over 20 years use, yet newer M960- stuff seems not to have lasted that long at all before having worn out pivots etc.

    Serious questions – are you riding more? Or are you riding more in more challenging terrain? One thing I have noticed is that people are riding stuff now on ‘regular’ bikes that 10 years ago would have been the sole realm of a ‘downhill’ bike. We’re also riding faster, because equipment is more forgiving and we can stop faster. To counter your above point, I’d suggest that all this wears kit out faster.

    Although how you’re wearing out shifters is beyond me… 😉

    Shimano et al don’t want you to keep your stuff runningfor 20+ years,they want you to buy new stuff every 2 or 3.

    There’s undoubtedly truth in that. To remain in business they need to fulfil a need. However, our purchasing power also funds R&D, which has given us the massively better bikes we have today, compared to those of 15 years ago. I also don’t believe that the bike industry is as bad as something like the washing machine industry, where products have a cycle lifespan built in (I find it amazing – and a little scary – we have the technology to be able to model this and put it into production).

    I for one like kit that can be serviced and rebuilt. There’s a place for it on pieces such as hubs and headsets, but on drivetrains it’s of arguable need as to make it sustainable, you’d have to sell it. To make it worthwhile it’d need to be of decent quality, plus you’d need to produce spares – all great so far. Even if people bought the mech, ran it and kept it going – which is brilliant – what happens when standards change (which they will)? OK, you can make a new cage / spring / whatever, but to stay afloat it will need to be sold at a price that can help do that – my guess is, on a small production scale, that it won’t be cheap.

    Alternatively you can buy a Deore mech that’ll last two years and work brilliantly.

    As I said, I love the idea of rebuildable kit in the bike industry, but I don’t think it’s a viable model (do you remember the Paul’s Components rear mech?). Buying something like a quality pair of shoes or a good axe is an investment that should last years and be repaired, but I think we’re a way from that – certainly on drivetrains – in bikeworld at the moment.

    In ‘real world’ use; maybe for a short time, before it starts to wear out. Stuff like aheadset; maybe more conveneint for servicing. But a properly serviced old Cmapag/Dura Ace headset can and do run for decades.

    So can a King or a Hope… (arguably of similar price range to a Dura Ace). Even cheaper cup and ball headsets will last if you look after them (as will Shimano hubs), but people prefer fit-and-forget bearings.

    The point I was really getting at with the Aheadset is that overall it’s a better system, pure and simple. It’s simpler to set-up, more secure because the stem bolts straight onto the steerer tube and lighter because there’s no expander quill needed. Downsides? Well, adjusting the stem height requires forethought. But once set, how often do you adjust your stem height?

    And well done if you’ve got to the end of this post. I appear to have having a pre-lunch ramble. 😉

    dragon
    Member

    Yesterday I saw a Porsche Caynne with a Santa Cruz and Canyon full sussers on the back, case closed.

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