I once saw something hilarious at the side of the road – standing next to a car was a huge guy in cycling gear and a little squirt, with a pot belly in normal clothes. (I wonder which was the driver). The driver was clearly frustrated, waving his arms about and the cyclist was stood calmly staring down at him. That was all I saw, but it put a nice little story in my mind 😀

I do it to provoke people…but then I’m an idiot..

Internet high five for a fellow idiot!

These are my observations:

-Nothing wrong with riding in a group
-The overtake didn’t look dangerous from that angle (whether it was necessary is a different matter)
-The honk was unnecessary and only riles people up
-The brake check was dangerous and unacceptable
-Blocking a moving car is stupid
-Not keeping an eye on what’s in front of your when driving is dangerous
-Touching someone’s car is not a good idea
-Confronting an angry person is never going to end well

The driver was was clearly at fault for causing this incident, was the bigger arsehole, and was the only one to commit an offence.

Some of the riders didn’t help themselves, and whilst not responsible for the drivers actions, could have conducted themselves differently to avoid escalating things (self admittedly, this is easier said than done once the adrenaline get going).

I see both sides every day on roads around here, but that incident is 100% driver fault, he is impatient, when he overtakes he beeps the horn, then stops when he’s clear to argue, causing the end result. I can’t fault the riders in that clip at all, when i see a road that has centre markings then i am happy if they are two abreast, because i have an entire side of the road to overtake, and reality is, if it’s a 30 i just have to suck it and wait unfortunately, unless there’s a good passing gap.

Honestly, i see enough roadies going full tilt down the middle of country lanes in their strava attempts, holding up traffic and making oncoming cars have to stop as well, that can be annoying, but again, doesn’t exactly make me angry, just do the usual under the breath whinge about bloody strava roadies ;o)

Mostly agreeing with TJ on this, but then I ride pretty rarely on the road, and never more than 2 of us.

Sure the cyclists couid have behaved differently but at the end of the day the only violence was from the driver, and even if the cyclists painted a cock and balls on the bonnet of his car it doesn’t justify assaulting someone.

No one said it did.

the cyclists tho also behaved like idiots and the claim of attempting to de escalate are utter nonsense

The car driver behaved criminally

1) leans over the driver from a greater height
2) gets in the drivers personal space
3) gets within arms length of the driver
4) touches the drivers property
%) aggressive body language

Proper lols at this. Especially 1) 3) and %)

All things that you should not do if you want to de escalate a situation and all things that he did do.

He appeared to try to make a claim he was trained to de escalate – if he had then the training would have told him not to do these things.

I am fairly highly trained in “management of aggression” to the point I can train others. thats stuff you learn in the very basic initial training in the first half hour

2) gets in the drivers personal space

Yeah. But from a drivers point of view, that’s called “the road”.

Driving without due care and attention @Tjagain. Clear cut.

Ignoring *all* of the rest of the stuff – you’re culpable as a car driver if you crash into something. He can stop faster than the bird on the bike. He didn’t – he ran into her. If she was close in front of him then he should have stopped the car. That’s 100% his responsibility.

He was too busy punching someone who was trying to talk to him. Regardless of whether it’s “not the correct way to de-escalate” – the situation is entirely of his own making and shouldn’t have happened to require de-escalating in the first place.

Once the driver acted like a twonk, it’s unreasonable to expect everyone else to act *perfectly*. I see that the cyclists acted *reasonably* – and the driver not.

He’s in charge of a two ton lethal vehicle. He’s committed assault. He’s not taking due care and attention and failed to stop his car before smashing into a cyclist – because he was too busy committing assault.

100% driver created situation. 100% liability.

The police have also failed – they can see on the video that the woman has been knocked off her bike – she’s in the video just about to disappear under the bumper of the car that has knocked her off.

I would be persuing a civil case if I were them. Screw him for everything you can get from him. It’s a no-brainer.

100% driver created situation. 100% liability.

Of course. However the actions of the cyclists escalated it very clearly and made it worse. the guy claimed to be trained to de escalate – he did everything 100% wrong if that was his aim

Every incident should be an opportunity for learning and learning how to avoid getting thumped by road raging nutters seems reasonable to me. Reflective practice

As for the woman in front of the car – yes again driver legally in the wrong but what a stupid place to put yourself.

So yes of course the driver is in the wrong 100% morally and legally. However the incident could have been much less serious if the cyclists had not acted like they did

Zero chance of a prosecution for hitting the woman – because of the actions of the cyclists surrounding the car agressivly he has an easy defense ” I was surrounded by angry cyclists and I panicked”

Don’t see that defence holding water @Tjagain.

He was panicking so much he pulled a cyclist into his window so he could repeatedly punch him. Not a lot of time left for him to panic.

If CPS attempted a prosecution, no jury would buy that…

As for the woman in front of the car – yes again driver legally in the wrong but what a stupid place to put yourself.

“She was asking for it”

Honestly, when people start accusing TJ of being anti-cyclist it shows just how far down the rabbit hole this place has gone.

In terms of risk assessments I’d say this was a safer outcome than other potentialities, the driver stopped the traffic, had the cyclists ignored him and carried on they would be in a more dangerous place in front of the car, had they ignored him and stopped behind the car they are again in danger and it is very obvious that the driver was perfectly able to escalate on his own, and did to the point of stopping to give them a piece of his mind..for nothing other than hold him up I could add.

When someone is flaring there are times when you have to act to stop it, I’d agree with tj so far as the cyclists claim to being expert at de-escalation..this was not an expert bit of de-escalation, but had it been many others this would have led to the driver being dragged out of the car and given a serious kicking…and that was the position he put himself in.

I don’t think it is fair that the cyclists should be blamed for not de-escalating the situation, good if the do and admirable but actually held responsible for de-escalating threatening behaviour when challenged aggressively?

Who is blaming the cyclists? I merely pointed out that they made the situation worse with their behavior and their claims of de escalating do not add up, indeed the cyclists action made a violent reaction more likely

Blame is 100% with the driver but that does not mean there is nothing to learn from this and there was nothing the cyclists could have done

Safest place for them is either behind the car or on the other side of the road riding away

Safest place for them is either behind the car or on the other side of the road riding away

I agree with what you are saying in general terms, when I looked at it I thought “stay behind the idiot”, I try but don’t always do this. But and it’s a big but, in a group ride situation had I been at the front I would have gone past as a sudden stop would have caused problems for those behind so I think being critical of that is harsh. Leaning on his car was daft though.

Safest place for them is either behind the car or on the other side of the road riding away

I agree with what you are saying in general terms, when I looked at it I thought “stay behind the idiot”, I try but don’t always do this. But and it’s a big but, in a group ride situation had I been at the front I would have gone past as a sudden stop would have caused problems for those behind so I think being critical of that is harsh. Leaning on his care was daft though.

And I’m with TJ…. The woman stopped in front of a slowly moving car – she wasn’t “run over”.

Shock horror, some drivers are dicks as are some entitled cyclists.

+1

in a group ride situation had I been at the front I would have gone past as a sudden stop would have caused problems for those behind

this is the bit I have real difficulty with. Not being able to do an emergency stop as the riders behind will crash into you. To me that is unsafe and why i will never ride in a close group like that. thats just my opinion tho

I wonder what happened from then on? Amazed it didnt escalate further tbh.

I merely pointed out that they made the situation worse with their behavior

You’ve no way of knowing what the driver would’ve done had they behaved differently. Frankly, they were pretty restrained given the circumstances.

Not being able to do an emergency stop as the riders behind will crash into you.

On the roads you’re expected to (safely) stop in the distance you can see. You can ride in a group and do that, but if someone overtakes and immediately brakes hard that puts you at risk. I’ve discussed bike stopping times in another thread – even in ideal braking circumstances a hatchback can stop a lot more quickly than a road bike.

See also: a sports car overtaking an HGV and immediately slamming on the anchors. HGV has no chance of stopping in time. They are not at fault.

TJ you’re being a bit belligerent here.

apologies if I appear belligerent. Just frustrated that people cannot see how the actions of the cyclists escalated the situation and that the ride leader claimed to be trying to deescalate when he did everything 100% wrong if he wanted to deescalate

I just do not get this bit tho. A couple of people have said that the cyclists could not stop behind the car because if the front one stopped hard the rear ones would crash into them.

I just do not get riding so closely together that you cannot do a full emergency stop.

I have been hit by cyclists slipsteaming me / riding too close a couple of times. I did not know they were there, braked hard and they ran into me

1) leans over the driver from a greater height

*punch*

Can I just point something out here:

Cyclists are people

Sometimes people get angry or make mistakes

Therefore some cyclists will get angry and make mistakes.

Pointing this out doesn’t make anyone ‘anti-cyclist’ any more than pointing out a person’s mistakes makes you anti-person.

A person doesn’t get protection from the consequences of their actions just because they happen to choose a mode of transport that you also like.

Every incident should be an opportunity for learning and learning how to avoid getting thumped by road raging nutters seems reasonable to me. Reflective practice

I’ve found TJ’s observations on this thread (and others) to be instructive, and I get where he’s coming from as regards practical de-escalation. I don’t think it’s victim blaming to look at the events from that perspective in this context.

I still wonder at the caution. It’s not so much the punching (sadly) since as @Kato said on page 1:

I am in the business and that is the disposal available for a guilty plea common assault with no relevant offending history

…but for me losing control of the vehicle and hitting a stationary cyclist should surely count as “allowing the standard of driving to fall below that of a competent and careful driver” (i.e. driving without due care and attention).

You can say that the camera cyclist would ideally have not been in the path of the car. I would agree. Maybe the cyclist was trying to box the car in or similar, but I don’t really read it like that watching the video. The cyclist overtakes the car, moves back left (as would be natural after overtaking), continues for a few seconds and then comes to a halt. The halt appears to be triggered by the shouting and punching going on behind the cyclist. Admittedly everything is a bit confused/fluid because of the weird situation.

Once the bike has stopped, the car rolls for 2-3 seconds, sounds the horn, hits the cyclist, and doesn’t even really stop once the cyclists leg’s are under the front of the car. The 2-3 second period is plenty of reaction/braking time given the speed of the vehicle, so there’s really no excuse for hitting the stationary object, other than “sorry, yerhonour, I was distracted from driving by punching someone repeatedly in the head”.

<sarcasm>The driver should have safely stopped the vehicle and *then* got on with the assault for which his caution was an entirely reasonable and proportionate response.</sarcasm>

I am generally with TJ on this.

Both driver and cyclists behaved badly and did not de-escalate things.

The driver however also behaved criminally in punching and lacked due care and attention by rolling over the person in front.

Pretty much agree with the majority/TJ on this, driver was in the wrong but the cyclists didn’t help themselves – grabbing the car was a dick-move.

However, Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver – would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.

I ride a couple of 1000 miles a year on the road (mostly on my own) and go out of my way to avoid confrontation, getting into a row is never going to end well.
However i’ve seen some truly appalling behaviour from Roadie clubs whilst i’ve been out – riders banging on car roofs, jumping lights, swearing at pedestrians, etc.
Doesn’t exactly show cyclists in a good light..

However, Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver – would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.

That can make it worse as you get drivers dashing between each group and needing to overtake many groups of cyclists instead of one. The fact it annoys you that you have to wait behind other roads users for a but is not good though, you should take a look at that.

I just do not get riding so closely together that you cannot do a full emergency stop.

You need an apprenticeship in a road club to understand this.

However i’ve seen some truly appalling behaviour from Roadie clubs whilst i’ve been out – riders banging on car roofs, jumping lights, swearing at pedestrians, etc.

I ride several thousand miles a year. For several years.

I’ve never seen the first.

I see the second, but not as much as people who like to talk about it like to make out, and almost never dangerously or in a way that impacts anybody.

I’ve very rarely seen the third. It’s nearly always the other way around.

I have seen a group of riders banging on a car roof. Driver had overtaken them just before a road narrowing where oncoming cars had priority. As the road cleared the cyclists were alongside the car and all went by with each one giving the roof a tap.

Looked quite funny although they may not have thought it through as that same car would be passing them again very soon…

I have seen a group of riders banging on a car roof.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen – but stating it as if it happens all the time is… silly.

However, Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver – would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.

*Sometimes* that might help you pass the group faster. Other times it’ll just stretch out the time that it takes you to get past as the cyclists will be stretched over a longer distance, and you’ll need accordingly more safe overtaking places.

For this kind of group size (looks like around 7 or 8), I think on the whole it would average out to be faster for you for them to stick together.

Its the follow through thats the real problem
If a group of 12 riders splits into 3 group of 4 leaving 1 car space plus safety margin. I can absolutely guarantee a second car will also overtake eithet the rear or middle group
With no room to pull back onto the correct side of the road the following car squeezes in and forces a space, so the cyclists knock bars
This is where it gets really dangerous

Also, if its a smelly deisel vehicle you get to sit in the slipstream of fumes, mot what ypu want

However i’ve seen some truly appalling behaviour from Roadie clubs whilst i’ve been out – riders banging on car roofs

I banged on a car once but the driver was squeezing me into the kerb at the time. I guess I should’ve just taken my punishment rather than upset the poor dear.

Bother like this (& worse) is why I don’t go out on the road with my local club any more.

I’ve been knocked off twice: Once was ‘sorry mate, didn’t see you’ and the other was when I was being over-taken on a blind bend and the driver decided to run me down rather than have a head on crash.

Every club ride had at least one episode of hassle/ brake checking/ being squeezed into the gutter etc

Cycling & cars are a bad mix in the UK (Haven’t seen the same level of aggro in France)

None of my mates has been seriously injured mountain biking; we have a quadriplegic and two permanently disabled road riders in the club though.

Stick to mountain biking.

I punched the side of a van hard enough to leave a dent in it once. The driver pulled out right in front of me forcing me to practically broadside my bike to the floor to avoid crashing into it. He didn’t even look left before pulling out because I was watching his face, expecting it to happen. He then stopped at the next set of lights, queue me punching the side of his van. I then went up to the window and he wouldn’t even look at me, just sat there staring straight ahead. So I punched the window pretty hard and watched him shudder in the seat, hopefully he wet his pants.
Been knocked off three times by idiots not looking what they’re doing, and nearly another one last night as some idiot decided to reverse their vehicle into the middle of road without checking if anything was coming first. I wish my bike was a bus sometimes, that’d give them a surprise.
Another time had a car (Jaguar) drive straight towards me on the wrong side of the road as it accelerated passed a load of parked car on his side. I moved close to the kerb and he just didn’t stop, kept coming at me, so I put my right arm out a bit, my elbow still slightly tucked into my side. I knew there was just enough room for me to squeeze through but it was going to be close. Fortunately it was a cold December day and I had thick sealskinz gloves on. The next thing I knew his wing mirror hit my hand and it sailed about 20ft into the air and smashed into smitherines as it hit the ground. The next thing I heard was the unmistakable sound of a car reversing really really fast. But it was too late for him, I was long gone out the end of the road and on to the canal tow path.