Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 173 total)
  • “Motorist punches cyclist in the head”
  • Premier Icon Aidy
    Free Member

    no one has tried to justify the drivers actions.

    No, but the way you are wording it is very much excusing the driver’s actions.

    However why then escalate it?

    Not everyone is as chilled. Or can let things go as easily. Or can easily accept their loved ones and friends being put in a dangerous situation. Or is trained in de-escalation.

    Could they have reacted differently? Yes. Were they in the wrong to react the way they did? No.

    Premier Icon ossify
    Full Member

    I still cannot believe this bit:
    “she suffered cuts and bruises but wasn’t considered part of the case as the police couldn’t actually see her”

    Surely there must be more to it than that. It makes no sense to me at all.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Please point out where I or anyone else has said its the cyclists fault?

    the driver was criminal in his actions. the cyclists were just stupid and made the situation worse. they could have deesclated it and the situation would not have been so bad and the cyclist would not have been punched. thats not to say they are to blame – but simply saying dealing with a road rager in a different way would have been better

    Premier Icon jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    Please point out where I or anyone else has said its the cyclists fault?

    Not 10 posts ago you said riding in a group was inherently dangerous and therefore wrong…

    Premier Icon sharkbait
    Free Member

    Sorry, but if you’re riding in a group and you get brake checked, you’d be very lucky to avoid a coliision amongst the group, which is obviously what the driver was trying to achieve…

    There’s absolutely nothing to say that he brake checked them – he may well have simply stopped in a normal way.

    personally I see all chaingangs as dangerous riding. too close together for safety.

    I find groups of roadies very intimidating on the country roads around me.

    It’s amazing how much anti-cycling there is on cycling forums.

    Riding a bike doesn’t automatically make your actions right.
    Although some people here may think it does.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    but simply saying dealing with a road rager in a different way would have been better

    I agree whilst sat here typing this but not the same when someone has just put me in danger and the adrenalin is flowing although ultimately any altercations I have had with drivers never ended positively so would be better just to avoid however hard that is.

    Premier Icon natrix
    Free Member

    I find groups of roadies very intimidating on the country roads around me.

    Bizarre, what do you think they’re going to do? Knock you off your mountain bike? Push your car into a ditch?

    I find groups of cars far more intimidating when I cycle on the road, they kill and injure lots of cyclists you know, whereas groups of cyclist don’t kill anyone……….

    Premier Icon DavidB
    Full Member

    but simply saying dealing with a road rager in a different way would have been better

    I’m interested in the alternative suggestions you have

    I don’t condone confronting drivers aggressively, but I suspect said drivers will approach a group differently next time in order to avoid a confrontation. I accept this will not always be positive but if nothing at all is done then the driver behaviour remains as it was. It seems as if you are saying that groups who are harassed (which is what he did with his beep)
    should just let it go? If so, he will continue to do it. Nothing changes.

    And if the answer is “give footage to police”. Forget that one. I now don’t bother with my camera as numerous reports have ended in tumbleweed.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Not 10 posts ago you said riding in a group was inherently dangerous and therefore wrong…

    Not what I said – try reading and also thats a IMO

    And even if I said that its still not blaming the cyclists for this situation.

    Premier Icon Keva
    Free Member

    I find groups of roadies very intimidating on the country roads around me.

    crikey, really? You must be absolutely terrified when you see a few motorbikes then!

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    I’m interested in the alternative suggestions you have

    I posted earlier how I now tend to deal with this sort of thing

    In that situation ( hard to be sure – I wasn’t there) I would have stayed behind the car and had a good laugh at the inadequacies of the car driver with my pals

    car driver is angry, we have a laugh, no assault occurs. his day is spoiled worse than mine.

    Another tactic i have used is rather than an angry confrontation tell the driver that they really scared me and I thought I might die. Non confrontational and still gives them cause to think

    3rd option – call him something ridiculous ” thrombus” being my favourite and then cycle away

    50 years of near daily urban cycling and I used to get into a lot of confrontations like that. Now I no longer do because I changed the way I react. the key thing is to make sure it spoils their day more than yours and to not get into an aggressive confrontation/ standoff

    Premier Icon DavidB
    Full Member

    I can’t see how your options 2 and 3 are any different from what they did bar the hand on mirror

    Option 2 is confrontational. I know because I did it in Devon. Drive got out of car and pulled a Big Daddy move on me with his belly.

    Option 3 is confrontational.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    option 3 I have got out of the way – just the insult and I am out of there. Option two sometimes works

    all of those options i would not have put myself into a position to be attacked because I would not be in a face to face confrontation. I would be somewhere else

    Its also about body language and so on

    You asked – thats my answer that works for me. I have gone from regular angry confrontations to none in years

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    I can’t see how your options 2 and 3 are any different from what they did bar the hand on mirror

    and then cycle away

    Premier Icon igm
    Full Member

    We need to share the roads, yes, but we don’t have to be passive in that sharing.

    Round here I do get the occasional close pass, but rarely something that scares me too much.

    Far more common are good passes. Wait for a decent opportunity, pass wide, neither dawdling alongside me, nor reving the engine to the limit and setting off like the safety car just pulled in.  HGV drivers are probably the best.

    I make a point of acknowledging the good passes – they may not notice, but perhaps the next guy in the queue will. And for HGV drivers I am also acknowledging that they are by me, and the pass is complete.

    We need to acknowledge and encourage good drivers, as well as call out the bad ones.

    I also tend to pedal like Cavendish in the last hundred metres* if I can see a good passing opportunity ahead then sit up as I get to it – amazing how that encourages the driver to pass where I’d like them to.

    *in my mind anyway

    Premier Icon large418
    Free Member

    Let’s face it – no one in the video comes out well. Easy to understand but still not good. I am sure the motorist’s opinion of cyclists hasn’t gone up, so highly likely that he’ll still slag “bloody cyclists” off at any opportunity.

    I am still amazed how some apparently intelligent people (maybe not this driver) considers cyclists as a separate group or type of person (actually not people at all – more objects of annoyance). And feel the need to make their views known at any opportunity (whether it be social media or shouting out of car windows), without realising that most cyclists are also motorists, pedestrians, parents, children etc etc etc. Constantly amuses and disappoints me……

    Premier Icon duckman
    Full Member

    Aidy
    Free Member
    It’s amazing how much anti-cycling there is on cycling forums.

    Ah; that old classic, so can I assume neither you or any of your mates have ever ridden a bike in a way contrary to rule one?

    Premier Icon agis2012
    Free Member

    No-one comes out of that video with much credit too be honest once the car stopped but I find it laughable that anyone should suggest that the cyclists escalated that situation.

    Surely the car driver had plenty of time to deescalate things once he had overtaken? That was the time for him to drive off safely and securely now that he had got what he wanted i.e ahead of the slow moving cyclists who were delaying his journey.

    But no he made a decision to slow his own journey even further. And that decision caused all the escalation that followed.

    He then compounded it by getting violent for which he quite rightly deserved to be punished. He was probably very lucky to get a Caution (I am guessing no prior violent convictions etc) which although seemingly a mere slap on the wrists can lead to real hassle later on in life for years after (dont ask me how I know)

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    It’s amazing how much anti-cycling there is on cycling forums.

    I’m not anti-cycling, I’m anti-dick behaviour. Sometimes, cyclists do act like dicks, even if they like the same hobby as we do.

    Premier Icon sharkbait
    Free Member

    But no he made a decision to slow his own journey even further.

    Which is why I suggested that just maybe an unseen cyclist did something (after he beeped his horn) that made him stop.

    This is actually far more logical than just overtaking and then 5 seconds later, when he was well past, deciding to slam his brakes on.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Sharkbait – no the overtake and brake check is quite common. One of the riders does throw his hand up in disgust that you can see but I would not think it necessary for the cyclists to have done anything in particular for the loony in the car to brake test them

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    I quite often do the **** sign but guessing most of the time the driver doesn’t see me but when then do and it is a ragey driver they stop and we have a shouting match.
    I explain why I think they were driving like a ****, they get further enraged and off we go. Nobody ever gains from it but they may give it some thought after they have cooled down as to why someone would call them a **** for how they were driving.

    Most of my altercations are drivers passing me on blind bends (quite a few of them where I live). My solution to that is now to indicate right and go to centre of road until around the corner but even then I have been overtaken when signalling right AND on a blind corner so not much you can do at that stage!

    Premier Icon darthpunk
    Free Member

    Is the filmer the front rider or is there a video from the forward direction. Not really getting the whole picture from that rear camera.

    Premier Icon DavidB
    Full Member

    Maybe some of you should actually read this and reconsider the conclusions you jumped to

    Especially those who banged on about “escalation”

    https://road.cc/content/news/cyclist-punched-repeatedly-head-furious-driver-286281

    It appears they were trying to do exactly what you all said they should

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Not in the video. The rider who leaned on the car escalated it. What good would he think would come out of that?

    The video makes it quite clear that the man who leaned on the car was very aggressive in body language and escalated the situation. Its all there in the video.

    Edit – if their behaviour is deescalating I am Boris Johnson! Lean on the car, get in the drivers personal space? Two things guaranteed to escalate

    If you want to descalate you do not touch their car, you give them plenty of space, you do not have aggressive body language?

    Premier Icon Aidy
    Free Member

    I don’t get how leaning out of your window and hitting someone repeatedly whilst being in charge of a moving vehicle doesn’t count as dangerous driving.

    Premier Icon tomparkin
    Full Member

    I don’t get how leaning out of your window and hitting someone repeatedly whilst being in charge of a moving vehicle doesn’t count as dangerous driving.

    …and indeed then losing control of said moving vehicle to the extent that you drive into a stationary cyclist in front of you. A caution doesn’t really seem all that fitting.

    Premier Icon jimfrandisco
    Free Member

    the man who leaned on the car was very aggressive in body language

    This is a real lesson in perception.
    I’d interpret that body language as leaning slightly on a car for stability while trying to control a slowing bike, he’s not exactly squaring up to him.

    But then I’m not trying to demonstrate how I’d have handled the situation so much better than they did.

    Premier Icon Aidy
    Free Member

    I’d interpret that body language as leaning slightly on a car for stability while trying to control a slowing bike, he’s not exactly squaring up to him.

    Yeah. I saw it as stabilising himself to maintain a fixed distance from the driver to facilitate conversation. Not advisable, but not aggressive, either.

    Premier Icon DavidB
    Full Member

    This is a real lesson in perception.
    I’d interpret that body language as leaning slightly on a car for stability while trying to control a slowing bike, he’s not exactly squaring up to him.

    But then I’m not trying to demonstrate how I’d have handled the situation so much better than they did.

    Applause! This is absolutely on the nail.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Full Member

    Well the cyclists acted calmer than I normally do in these situations. Although I’m smart enough to always get off my bike and also have flat pedals. Both of which make altercations much easier to deal with. I know my behaviour is stupid but anger makes one do silly things at times.

    I would’ve snapped the **** wing mirror off instead of leaning on it. I’m a dickhead when it comes to dealing with stupid drivers though. A Daily Mail readers dream!

    Premier Icon Larry_Lamb
    Free Member

    Bloody cyclists hogging the road. Bet they didn’t pay their road tax.

    Premier Icon espressoal
    Free Member

    Not in the video. The rider who leaned on the car escalated it.

    I have not had time to read all the posts but I watched the vid and I think ‘escalated’ is the wrong word, I think he engaged with it but it was already there….

    The driver of the car slowed up deliberately, with the intention of deliberate engagement, it doesn’t matter that they were cyclists, it’s straight confrontation and response.

    The cyclist touching the mirror could have been any other that responded physically or verbally, from what I could tell the threat(finger pointing out of car) came from the driver, and from what I could tell also the violence.

    I’d say this guy has issues with cyclists and only got a lenient sentence because one of the cyclists engaged, but he is now on record and should this happen again he will not be so lucky.

    I use the word ‘engage’ rather than ‘escalate’ because it was already escalated, the driver took control of the confrontation by slowing and opening his window, in doing that he took on the responsibility and risk for whatever happened next depending on what he said….I don’t think he said the right thing.

    Premier Icon GlennQuagmire
    Free Member

    Tend to agree with what TJ has said on this.

    We all have to share the roads. The cyclists happily escalated the situation and ultimately there is no “winner”.

    Moral of the story? Peace and Love. ❤

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Full Member

    The moment the driver (Who was already largely invulnerable – and could make himself more so buy the use of his window button…) decided that violence was the answer – that’s when almost any prior non-violent action by anyone else becomes irrelevant.

    The driver escalated this from a verbal altercation to a physical one. He solely made the choice to punch someone else, when he could have made good his escape and removed any danger to himself. Therefor, I think the use of a caution in this situation is incredibly wrong.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Caution is perfectly correct under the law as it stands. You and I may think this is wrong but thats the law

    From the road CC link

    Mr Short continued: “As club secretary and a trained Ride Lead we’re meant to de-escalate any situation

    In that case they really need to learn what descalating is. He obviously has no clue. If he is trained the training he ignored or was utter shite

    Within a few seconds he makes a series of fundamental errors if he is trying to deescalate

    1) leans over the driver from a greater height
    2) gets in the drivers personal space
    3) gets within arms length of the driver
    4) touches the drivers property
    %) aggressive body language

    All of those things are fundamental errors if yo are trying to descalate. all are 180 degrees from the correct action. If you intended to escalate the situation he could not have done more

    What i am trying to do here is reflective practice. via the technique of reflecting on incidents I changed my behaviour and lo and behold its now very rare I have incidents like this

    there is learning for us all in every incident like this.

    What happened
    Where were the triggers
    What could I have done differently
    How could the incident have been avoided

    None of this is about proportioning blame or victim blaming on any other hysteria on this thread. Its about learning and keeping safe

    Premier Icon jimfrandisco
    Free Member

    In this case I think there’s a difference between actively escalating the situation and actively seeking to deescalate.

    While I don’t agree with tj’s interpretation of the cyclist escalating the situation – those are great points of advice to try and retain when in that situation and wanting to deescalate first rather than engaging.

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I have to say when I watched this on road.cc I didn’t think the cyclist came out looking that great, having said that, I might well have kicked the mirror off!!!
    I try to act calm but don’t always manage it. The rider that put his hands on the car should realise carists don’t like it. I do it to provoke people…but then I’m an idiot..

    Be more TJ will be my new mantra.

    (Unless it involves rugby of course!)

    Premier Icon desperatebicycle
    Free Member

    Be more TJ will be my new mantra

    I think my keyboard would run out of ink

    Premier Icon singletrackmind
    Full Member

    One day a car driver is going to get a proper shoeing from a cyclist they have harassed.
    There is this belief that you a weedy nerd if you cycle on the uk highways, and are therefore fair game for bullying behaviour. Whether that is using the vehicle as a weapon to intimidate, or as a protective shell from which to dispatch vitriolic abuse

    Unfortunately most cyclists are well balanced, reasonably educated people so the morons who like to pick on people rarely get what they deserve, which is a shame

Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 173 total)

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