Remember it’s your right under an ammendment to the constitution as an American to shoot other Americans. They don’t want those foreigners coming over and doing it for them, it’s basically protectionism at heart.

I didn’t as its a large and complex issue.

Personally, I think it’s actually a very large and simple issue, it just looks complex because the Pro Gun side (and the Gun Control side to a lessor extent) has become so partisan that they’re long past having a debate, it’s a case of coming up with a half-way plausible counter to to facts.

The only problem is that lots of Americans want to have a gun, in fact many guns and there’s a lot of money to be made from supplying them.

Of course the issue is simple

Lots of Americans like to have guns
The only way this will change is if politicians change the laws
Politicians who even mention the possibility of a change the laws would not be reelected in many states
Politicians therefore do not change the law.

crazyjenkins01 – Member

No jimjam, I didn’t as its a large and complex issue.

What I did do was point out that what Mike said was correct. A Gun is designed to kill people/animals, even if it can be used for sport shooting.

Yes but…..

toppers3933 – Member

The Americans don’t care what we think. Not even a little bit. They want their guns and they love their constitution and the two go hand in hand for a significant proportion of the US population. And the anti gun arguement is seen as anti American and as an affront to their civil liberties.

Besides, have you not heard the President? Now is not the time to discuss gun laws.

Neither was it the time after Las Vegas or any of the other mass shootings.

We should all be respectful and wait for the right time

Lots of Americans like to have guns
The only way this will change is if politicians change the laws
Politicians who even mention the possibility of a change the laws would not be reelected in many states
Politicians therefore do not change the law.

Exactly. This country would probably be a better place without cars (or with much better control around use of them) Can you imagine a government getting into a power with a policy that removes use of cars for the majority of people.
And owning a gun in US is pretty as much second nature as owning a car here.

Australia had a mass shooting in 1996, they changed the laws, they’ve not had one since.
(Australian definition of a mass shooting is more than 5 not including the shooter)

As far as I can see America doesn’t want to change, the President just blames mental health issues and the NRA owns all the politicians that the fossil fuel companies don’t.

So, broadly speaking, we all agree that America is nuts and it is difficult to see any change coming to address the fact that they keep shooting each other.

What type of event then would trigger a change? Sandy Hook didn’t result in a change. Orlando didn’t. Las Vegas didn’t. This one certainly won’t (only 26 dead after all).

So, 100 people, 200 people, 500, 1000 in one event? How about kids? Over 100 in one shooting or does it need to be massive, 1000 kiddies?

Surely there has to be a point where it becomes the beginning of the end?

So its not a gun issue it’s a mental health issue, so the response is to make it easier for people with mental health issues to buy guns…..truly wtf.

I do sometimes wonder how it is that America became a developed country in the first place.

Surely there has to be a point where it becomes the beginning of the end?

No. It will never change, at least not in “our lifetime”.

Politicians who even mention the possibility of a change the laws would not be reelected in many states

This^.

I work in Texas a fair bit, which is probably one, if not the worst for the gun culture, and until you spend time there you cannot understand how ingrained in their culture it is. You see whole families all dressed in hunting camo walking through the shopping malls. Racks and racks of guns in Walmart.

The very fact this bloke was stopped by other citizens with their guns, will be held up as a reason to carry weapons.

What type of event then would trigger a change? Sandy Hook didn’t result in a change. Orlando didn’t. Las Vegas didn’t. This one certainly won’t (only 26 dead after all).

quite a scary thought that neither Sandy Hook nor Vegas led to any change

says to be there will never be a change, the level of brutality to top those 2 is inconceivable tbh

They can change laws but even that would be of limited effect. With guns significantly out numbering people…and that is just the guns they know about. Unless you have some mass amnesty event then you’re not going to get the guns off the streets and out of circulation, which is what has to happen to keep them out of reach of those who would use them. Also if a law is pushed onto people they wouldn’t take part in a gun amnesty, so changing laws on its own wont change much. You can’t get away from the fact that the only way to succeed in reforming guns in the US is from the bottom up by changing peoples minds and opinions on guns and their attitudes to them. I can’t see that happening any time soon. They’re extremists in the same way ISIS hold extremist opinions. No amount of reasoning, facts, logic or education will change minds so changing laws will have the same effect as banning muslims in the wake of Islamic inspired terrorist attacks – absolutely nothing.

I fear it is a dead loss in the US, an impossible task, completely and utterly hopeless. They’ve set themselves on a path where it is just normal for people to be murdered on the streets on a daily basis. They’re completely de-sensitised to it. There is no shock anymore when these things happen – there is more shock expressed in countries outside of the US, we’re all looking on in utter disbelief. Sure, there is plenty of mass grief and praying, but that does no good other than to comfort those left behind and ease the conscience of people who could act but choose not to. It does nothing to reduce the chances of a repeat event. And so the cycle will repeat itself in the aftermath of this shooting too. 26 lives wasted whilst the media seems to be focussing and waffling on about the two guys chasing the shooter away. If a shooter is going to be taking out 26 people before the a public better armed than most countries army’s can deal with the shooter, then that is not good odds.

Maybe we’re all wrong. Maybe compulsory arming and training of every citizen is the answer. I fear we might live to see the day that that policy is introduced in the US before any stricter gun controls.

jimjam – Member

That’s what they are like now though.
Not so much. “Responsible gun owners” includes all the people who accidentally shoot a friend or pet or family member or self, it includes everyone who leaves a loaded firearm where their kids can find it, it includes everyone who leaves their permit handgun in a bag on the bus, it includes everyone who buys a gun from walmart with absolutely no idea how to handle it or even clear it… Everyone who says “accidental discharge” not “negligent discharge” There’s a massive body of gun owners out there that are neither criminal nor responsible.

The last one is where I’d start. Mandatory training for gun licence owners, just like a car test. It’s an instant waiting period, it can include other checks, and it’s very hard to put up a logical opposition. “I need this to defend my family” “well in that case, do it properly, we’ll help you, when the monkey takeover comes you have to be ready”. Make it about qualification in other words. Couch it all in terms of “why are you opposed? Not sure you’re good enough?” Make it a matter of pride. What alt-right gunbunny wouldn’t want their Qualified Home Defender badge on their tactical sleeve?

mikewsmith – Member

Remember it’s your right under an ammendment to the constitution as an American to shoot other Americans.

And the constitution cannot be amended, especially the amendments.

Northwind – Member

jimjam – Member

That’s what they are like now though.

Not so much. “Responsible gun owners” includes all the people who accidentally shoot a friend or pet or family member or self, [/quote]

They are obviously not responsible and you’re being facetious. You’re earlier list of things responsible gun owners should do would seem to apply to a lot of responsible gun owners. The phrase “firearms training USA” returns 2.98 million results on google and there are hundreds of thousands of instructors. Or are we just pretending that every American who owns a gun is a beer swilling simpleton who lives in a trailer with his sister wife?

Ban them, buy them back, scrap them, confiscate them, remove them, limit any further sales, have massive penalties for still having one. Ban the NRA from buying politicians.

This may have already been said, it would be difficult to buy them back as it is not known how many guns are in circulation as there is no register of who owns what.

The other problem would be getting the guns from the people who have them. In a lot of cases the people tasked with seizing the guns would be opposed to banning gun ownership, so probably wouldn’t do it. Then there are the people who would defend their right by shooting the people who came to take their guns.

Currently, itt is easy to get a gun if you aren’t allowed to own one, you just go to a gun show or a private sale and buy one. The ownership will be illegal, but as you are likely a criminal all ready that probably isn’t an issue for the individual in question.

Someone else mentioned that the US government don’t mind that their citizens are being killed by mass shootings. The US government doesn’t give a damn if its citizens are dying from a treatable illness. From what I’ve seen the US government treats its citizens with contempt.

I think a stumbling block for non-Americans in understanding the situation in America is that they assume it is like, for example, Europe. It isn’t. It is not like any another developed country. It more like a 3rd world county than it is like Europe. It is a pretty grim place.

jimjam – Member

They are obviously not responsible and you’re being facetious. You’re earlier list of things responsible gun owners should do would seem to apply to a lot of responsible gun owners.

I’m not being facetious, I’m arguing that the catchall “responsible gun owners” that the NRA and gun lobby love, is essentially meaningless. In their eyes everyone is a responsible gun owner right up until it goes wrong- the division they make is “criminals” and “responsible gun owners” and anything that restricts firearms is an attack on responsible gun owners. This is an organisation that considers it responsible to say that they’ll resist any attempt to take their guns with force.

Don’t get me wrong, of course there are genuinely responsible gun owners, but that’s not what they’re talking about. So I’m suggesting taking that back- make responsible mean something again.

Northwind – Member

Don’t get me wrong, of course there are genuinely responsible gun owners, but that’s not what they’re talking about. So I’m suggesting taking that back- make responsible mean something again.

It’s obvious from the outside looking in that “responsible” should be just that. You’d think it should be at least as difficult as say getting a HGV license is here.

I wonder how they could get from where they are to where they should be.

It’s not only the right to bear arms, the term ends with ‘,shall not be infringed.’ which in their argument, includes testing for competence.

They’re completely de-sensitised to it.

They seem to be desensitised to everything pretty much – mass shootings, Trump presidency, racists on the streets. Nothing provokes a reaction.

They seem to be desensitised to everything pretty much – mass shootings, Trump presidency, racists on the streets. Nothing provokes a reaction.

Well except Muslims.

The Americans don’t care what we think. Not even a little bit.

The STW us guns mass shooting threads are getting shorter…. Why do we bother chuntering on. Nothing will change and we are just wasting server space with this whilst we could be getting on with other stuff.

Condolences to the families caught up in this and it’s sorry that the outpourings from the last one have gone unheeded, but I fear it’s on to the next and the next and the next. A stuck record with grief as the click track.

^lock the doors and leave them to it, even more so with the orange moron in charge.

I’m not being facetious, I’m arguing that the catchall “responsible gun owners” that the NRA and gun lobby love, is essentially meaningless.

Given the campaign for this to not even be tested, questioned or even enquired about when buying guns show how hollow the phrase is.
Given the love in here for uninsured/banned drivers it’s about the same except it’s perfectly legal over there in some states.
Like everything it’s really a case of slowly eroding rights over time in practical terms – ban this, stop this from being sold, stop that ammunition, license this, track that etc.

It was really summed up with a conversation about the fundamental principles of living in a society. An American friend was sold on the fact that everyone should be able to defend themselves and their property. I suggested that your first obligation is to not need do things that force others to defend themselves.

“This is not a guns situation”. D. Trump

One of the most insulting and ridiculous comments of the decade.

jambalaya – Member

Taking guns away from law abiding people will lead to more deaths not less. That’s a big part of the counter argument.

And is absolute bollocks.
Fewer guns = fewer deaths.

Can they not just tax it away (not away ‘away’ but to reduce ownership)?

Like cigarettes in the UK. Sure you can smoke like a chimney if you want to (daft enough?) but £10 a packet will eventually get through to you.

Say to them – look dude, sure you can own a gun but the tax is …$$$ a year. Then increase the tax year on year until it is painful to own lots.

Banning is too fascist/top-down anyway. The Americans wouldn’t have it and it’s not their governmental style.

Can they not just tax it away (not away ‘away’ but to reduce ownership)?

Again……NRA

Chris rock has it. By all means let people have guns, guns are ace.

Charge $5000 per round of ammo.

Say to them – look dude, sure you can own a gun but the tax is …$$$ a year. Then increase the tax year on year until it is painful to own lots.

You do know that Americans think tax is for Communists?

Again……NRA

Again – you do realise that it’s not just the NRA who love their guns and hate tax?

I do sometimes wonder how it is that America became a developed country in the first place.

I don’t consider it to be developed. Nowhere with really poor public health provision, abject poverty in plain view, open racial prejudice on show, pretty much unhindered arming of it’s citizens, unbelievably poor employment rights and no real will to tackle any of the above can call itself developed. We’re far from perfect in this country but at least we recognise our failings.

Nowhere with really poor public health provision, abject poverty in plain view, open racial prejudice on show, pretty much unhindered arming of it’s citizens, unbelievably poor employment rights and no real will to tackle any of the above can call itself developed.

Most of that is the Tory party’s wet dream.