I am well aware of how society works
The UK population has shown a net increase in last three years … not due to child birth rates but due to immigration.

Interestingly enough, Gove seems to mean that “family friendly” means children spending less time with their parents.

For many non interested parents that will be a boon then …

PS I have no idea how working in the down time will help efficiency. Staggered school years wouldn’t seem to be an answer.

Re millionaires and taxes – yawn. A successful society need successful people. If you want to drive away the rich , you drive away investment. Drive away investment and you screw up any job chances – so you educate kids for nothing.

Education standards have been slipping here in the UK for years. As stated about 100 posts ago, many Brits have their head in the sand about education and health standards. You are stuck in the 1960s – when we were the envy of the world.

Re millionaires and taxes – yawn. A successful society need successful people. If you want to drive away the rich , you drive away investment. Drive away investment and you screw up any job chances – so you educate kids for nothing.

Yawn.

You said we all have to make sacrifices. Which is quite clearly untrue. In fact during this financial crisis the wealth of the richest in society has grown massively. So we’re not ‘skint’ it’s just some people want all the money for themselves.

Education standards have been slipping here in the UK for years.

Evidence? Or is it just one of those things that ‘everyone knows’.

BTW – the biggest issue education, is not teachers, nor their hours, nor their pay … but the complete disinterest of the majority of the parent , who feel that they have no role to play in their kids development. (or s, in fact, that it is some one else job)

Anyway, the teaching fraternity, on here, do not want to move on or see change- so lets just leave it as it is.

Grum – the millionaires were penalised by the 50% tax break 3 years ago – that has gone. It generated the best part of FA anyway. Then hopefully the rich invest.
Lesser tax payers didn’t see tax increase (though national insurance went up ;-))

As an aside – it would be good to see the government and HMRC plug the tax loopholes that allow Amazon, Apple, Eon etc to pay very little corporation tax. That would easily plug any revenue hole

Grum – the millionaires were penalised by the 50% tax break

How awful for them, I wonder how they managed?

It generated the best part of FA anyway.

Ah so because most of them dodged the tax, we decided not to bother trying to collect it. Shall we take the same approach with benefit fraud?

but the complete disinterest of the majority of the parent

The majority? Really? When you say things like that its hard not to believe you swallow up the Daily Mail hook, line and sinker.

Evidence? Or is it just one of those things that ‘everyone knows’.

Other than just teachers knowing …? That would be a novelty in this thread.
I believe the UK is seen as being no 6 world wide?
But then again , stats also say house prices are going up, and unemployment in going down.

As an employer in the UK, the quality of candidates we have seen has slipped impressively in the last 20 years – basic education, ability to communicate, integrate, empathise with others. Maths and literary skills are woeful. In germany those, and language , are seen a basic needs.

We may , however, be shit hot in media studies and film making …

If it’s such a good idea, why have they not applied it to Parliament and the Law?

my kids primary school the average salary is 34.600 pa there isnt a single male on the premises all the cleaners/caretakers are female as well

so lets start with some male staff.. as the school has a reputation for poor behaviour..

longer days for primary schools.. how about a 4 oclock finsih with the last hour used for sports/ pe.. letting them burn some fat and energy at the end of the day..

for secondary schools esp the later years why dont they work 8 hour days like they will be when they start work..

shorter holidays.. hell yes but throw this in..

kids and teachers take up to 8 weeks holiday a year plus bank holidays..

that would allow teachers freedom to take holidays like the rest of us and kids/ teachers the opportunity to have cheaper summer holidays when there parents can access them.

childcare costs would be reduced, kids get longer in the class room, we d need more teachers to cover holidays.. every one wins..

We may , however, be shit hot in media studies and film making …

Well, creative industries are actually one of the few successful exports of this country. But no, carry on with your ill-informed Daily Mail inspired rants. 🙄

Other than just teachers knowing …? That would be a novelty in this thread.
I believe the UK is seen as being no 6 world wide?
But then again , stats also say house prices are going up, and unemployment in going down.

You can prove anything with facts. Only problem is when they conflict with your tabloid-inspired prejudices.

No 6 in the world is pretty amazing isn’t it?

Grum – obiously, for you, Blair and Brown et al, were Nirvana …

I’m not going to change you views – but education should be invested in on a timetable much longer than the length on one General Election to another.

I’m sure the millionaires coped just fine ( but invested elsewhere)- just like the bennies cheats under the ever increasing generous Labour plans …

Wouldn’t read the Daily Fail if you paid me, hated Thatcher, and I have left of centre views. I’m just not a luddite and accept change is part of life .

Anyway, the teaching fraternity, on here, do not want to move on or see change- so lets just leave it as it is.

You seem to keep changing your standpoint. Why’s that?

I have yet to meet a teacher who doesn’t want to see things get better; who doesn’t want a better outcome for his or her pupils; who doesn’t want smaller class sizes; who doesn’t want more time to teach and help with useful extra-curricular activities and less time to plan, mark, write reports and all the other bollocks that goes along with the job.

What they don’t want (and of course, I’m now speaking on their behalf, and duckie, a_a and others are entitled to tell me to do one) is some reporter who again and again, ignores the advice of those who we would presume to know best, and decide that we can overlook say, France and Germany and Scandi nations, our close neighbours, who appear to have better outcomes educationally, and we must now compete with the “sweatshop” and “hothouse” style educational systems of South East Asia.

Grum – obiously, for you, Blair and Brown et al, were Nirvana …

😆

You obviously don’t pay a great attention that what he writes on here.

Grum – obiously, for you, Blair and Brown et al, were Nirvana …

Nope. Nice straw man argument though.

New Labour were a terrible, terrible disappointment.

Would read the Daily Fail if you paid me, hated Thatcher, and I have left of centre views. I’m just not a luddite and accept change is part of life .

Delusional too it seems. You should try reading the Mail, and maybe posting in the comments section. You’d find a lot of people who agree with your views.

that would allow teachers freedom to take holidays like the rest of us and kids/ teachers the opportunity to have cheaper summer holidays when there parents can access them.

Teaching and education does not run like a factory you know (despite what Gove would like to implement).

that would allow teachers freedom to take holidays like the rest of us and kids/ teachers the opportunity to have cheaper summer holidays when there parents can access them.

Unless you allow flexible holiday time for both teachers and pupils (which can’t really work) all that will happen is that the prices of holidays will go up when the schools are on holiday, exactly as they do now. Prices aren’t high in the school summer holiday because it’s summer, they are high because of the high demand when schools aren’t in.

in countries that are not tied to the agrarian legacy, they have different structures which reduce the need for extended summer (and other) holidays.

The long summer holiday has nothing to do with agriculture. The long summer holiday was to tie in with the summer break which the legal profession (and parliament) enjoyed at the time. Mr Gove’s summer holiday is a week longer than mine…

Personally, I’d welcome reform of holidays and hours, provided it was done with some evidence-base, consultation and input from experts, and not based upon what Gove happens to think this minute.

A good starting point might be six terms of six weeks each. Four weeks off in the summer and ~two weeks on non-teaching time between each term. A two week break means that I actually get some days not working, while the current one weeks breaks just about let me get caught up on planning.

If there’s an increase in the length of the school day, it needs to be made up of non-classroom time so the kids get a chance to play sport, run around, eat, socialise, and do individual supervised study (in place of homework). This would also give teaching staff more time within the school day to plan, prepare and mark.

Delusional too it seems. You should try reading the Mail, and maybe posting in the comments section. You’d find a lot of people who agree with your views.

Delusional because I don’t agree with you. A might pompous assumption by you. You and Joseph Stalin will make good bedfellows.

However he just killed all those disagreed with him. You are not there … yet

You obviously don’t pay a great attention that what he writes on here.

No – I really don’t
And don’t intend to ..

ou and Joseph Stalin will make good bedfellows.

However he just killed all those disagreed with him. You are not there … yet

FFS, there’s just no educating some people. 😐

No – I really don’t
And don’t intend to ..

I think you’re demonstrating just how much attention to pay to facts pretty well.

Delusional because I don’t agree with you

Not at all. Delusional because you trot out a load of half baked right-wing cliches Richard Littlejohn would be proud of, then claim to be left-of-centre. 😕

Comparing me to Stalin is good though. Does that qualify under Godwin’s law?

Personally, I’d welcome reform of holidays and hours, provided it was done with some evidence-base, consultation and input from experts

+1

Anyway, the teaching fraternity, on here, do not want to move on or see change- so lets just leave it as it is.

i asked you to explain how shorter holidays would reduce class sizes you havent.

one thing that really bores me is teachers making out they wrok longer and harder than anyone else.. when we finished at 4 yesterday i had to take the lads home and pay them drop the money at the bank do the days invoices grab some tea then tidy the van for an hour..
my daughters teacher wasnt in friday as she had some lieu time to take..
the head is retiring at 58 and is working 4 days a week to get used to retirement. the deputy head retired 5 years ago and came back on full pay and a pension!!

Anyway, the teaching fraternity, on here, do not want to move on or see change- so lets just leave it as it is.

As I said already, I wonder if the teaching fraternity might like the Asian model Gove apparently admires so much, where teachers only have 3 hours of class time per day. Is that what you/he are advocating?

one thing that really bores me is teachers making out they wrok longer and harder than anyone else.. when we finished at 4 yesterday i had to take the lads home and pay them drop the money at the bank do the days invoices grab some tea then tidy the van for an hour..

my daughters teacher wasnt in friday as she had some lieu time to take..

Great piece of evidence there. 😕

The only reason teachers ever mention the long hours in term time is because everyone is always slagging them off as lazy and moaning about how long their holidays are. If everyone STFU about that I’m sure you’d not hear that much complaining.

I’m not a teacher btw, in case it wasn’t obvious. 🙂

I’ve never really heard any teacher say that. I have heard them correct people when they clearly think that a teacher’s day is only from 9 until 3:30 but that’s not the same thing.

one thing that really bores me is teachers making out they wrok longer and harder than anyone else.

They don’t work harder than everyone else, but they do work very hard. Your story doesn’t sound that tough tbh.

And not sure where you’re going with those head teacher examples. Talk to a typical teacher, see what their average week is like. Everyone on this thread who’s done that agrees that they work very hard.

And they do a very important job. For peanuts.

Re summer holidays. It’s tough enough now to get away in the school holidays. Prices go through the roof, and everyone at work wants to go away in a short window. If you reduced that window it’d be nigh on impossible. People wouldn’t be able to go at all, the tourist industry would suffer I’m sure. Ok so there’d be more holiday at other times but it’d be worse weather and people would be less inclined to go.

The UK is skint

Makes you wonder why the UK is invited to attend the G7 meetings !

According to the IMF the UK is the 5th wealthiest nation on earth. There are over 180 countries poorer than the UK.

I have left of centre views

😀

Of course you have. Your classic right-wing ranting is the new left of centre, obviously.

My daughter’s teacher wasn’t in on Friday, as she had some lieu time to take.
The Head is retiring at 58 and is working 4 days per week to get used to retirement. The Deputy Head retired 5 years ago and came back on full pay and a pension!

I corrected your mistakes; it’s a compulsion.

A few points:
[list][*]Teacher’s don’t get lieu time.[/*]
[*]If the Head’s retiring at 58, there’s possibly some health-related reason. Whatever, they’ll be taking a big hit in their pension for going early.[/*]
[*]If the Deputy retired and then came back on full pay, they’ve probably stopped the pension payments as there’s a limit to what can be earned while receiving the pension.[/*][/list]

mrmoofo – Member[b]TROLL[/b]

FTFY

Look, I have no problem with you coming on here, but to troll properly you need to read over what you have already written and not change your statements or argument page to page. You have got the quoting multiple different peoples posts bit and arguing with each of them in turn bit quite well,but you need to have a more consistent set of views.If you can’t remember what you have written,you will never get your own bridge with a nice inviting meadow on one side.*

* Apologies if you really do believe the pish you have been spouting…

Apologies if you really do believe the pish you have been spouting…

I think there’s little chance of that.

Along with claiming to be left of centre, I was particularly impressed by his claim that Grum was like Joseph Stalin, except that he hadn’t killed anyone ……. “yet”.

People tend to say stuff they don’t actually believe when they get carried away with a rant, I think the rant was genuine enough though. I doubt that mrmoofo is actually a teacher/pisstaker just having a laugh/windup.

[/quote]totalshell – Member
one thing that really bores me is teachers making out they wrok longer and harder than anyone else.. when we finished at 4 yesterday i had to take the lads home and pay them drop the money at the bank do the days invoices grab some tea then tidy the van for an hour..

yeah i’m a builder too mate, i did 8-7 on site yesterday before settling up with the boys, cleaning out the van and all that stuff that comes at the end of a day.
i think i work hard but i also think teachers work hard.
i work on listed buildings mainly, there is a lot of responsibility not to **** up but that pails into insignificance when compared to the responsibility of shaping the minds of children doesn’t it?
as stated many times in this thread totalshell, if teaching is such a free ride why don’t you give it a bash? they are plenty of posts available

a couple of corrections..teachers certainly do get lieu time.. the teachers at ST. Marys RC littleborough are often absent for non health/ educational reasons.. ( the deputy head was absent 2.5 days this week for time spent working)

the 58 yr old head is retiring as that was what they stated they would do when they were appointed three ago..

i was clearly told by the deputy head ( we have three) that she took the pension early to recieve the maximum whilst it was still available and returned to work

if i may i ll ask for a little allowance for my grammar/spelling etc as its one of the permanent effects of my stroke..

I have never known of a teacher getting time off in lieu

medical apt, sickness, funerals, meetings, training all valid reasons to be off same as any other occupation

a couple of corrections..teachers certainly do get lieu time.. the teachers at ST. Marys RC littleborough are often absent for non health/ educational reasons.. ( the deputy head was absent 2.5 days this week for time spent working)

Primary teachers get 10% non-contact time, which some schools might take as one day per fortnight rather than half a day per week. Could be that. But, if I do extra hours I generally don’t get paid and don’t get more time off because of the extra hours.

the 58 yr old head is retiring as that was what they stated they would do when they were appointed three ago..

They’ll still be getting penalised in what they get for their pension for going early.

i was clearly told by the deputy head ( we have three) that she took the pension early to recieve the maximum whilst it was still available and returned to work

They’ll almost certainly not be receiving any pension payments while working full-time as a deputy. I knew of a few teachers who took early retirement in the 90s because of changes to the pension arrangements, who then did supply work. They had to be really careful not to work too many days per week or they lost some of their pension payments. by officially retiring then returning, the Deputy may have triggered their pension under a specific set of circumstances/rules but with no intention of actually retiring.

if i may i ll ask for a little allowance for my grammar/spelling etc as its one of the permanent effects of my stroke..

Fair enough 🙂

think there’s little chance of that.

Along with claiming to be left of centre, I was particularly impressed by his claim that Grum was like Joseph Stalin, except that he hadn’t killed anyone ……. “yet”.
Ah, so no sense of humour on STW…
I get the feeling that Grum can argue his point , without his little helpers coming along TBF.

I have not change my arguments – but I don’t subscribe to the negative anti “everything the current government says” stance that seems to prevail here
So, for the hard at understanding – education need to change / modernise.
The current system can be, and should be questioned. Does it offer good value for money? Could it offer better value for money?
The education minister has every right to canvass views and opinions
The tax payer has to fund education (along with a whole lot of other things) – and deserves good value and the best use of that funding. So the government should review on the TP behalf.
In the current climate it is not a bottomless pit – so adding more teachers / more pay/ more schools isn’t going to fly.
Gove is suggesting options – what do the teaching professional suggest? Because it just seems to be “no, that won’t work”. So suggest something that will.
Gove may well be a tit … but he isn’t a tit for seeking change.
Education is fundamentally at the core of society. Parents should not expect schools to have to teach everything. Parents have a huge role to play in the upbringing of their kids. Many seem to no longer want the responsibility.
I would like to see the UK with the best quality of education with the best ROI.
Teachers work no harder, or less harder than in most other professions. You will have an equal number of stars, and an equal number of shirkers.
And despite the crawing – I do have a lot of experience of teachers / teaching
And no – I don’t believe the state should fund child-care. Your choice to have kids, you should fund them.

Anyway, you are all set in you vision – Gove is bad, change is bad, so it will be business as usual. Any anyone who dares question it is a fascist troll … 🙄
Fine – I’m not wasting any more time on it

Apologies if you really do believe the pish you have been spouting.

Oh cmon it is a scatter gun approach to goad everyone and say nothing much rather than to get a reaction …no need for the self doubt/benefit of the doubt

without his little helpers [ad hom]coming along TBF.
I have not change my arguments[incorret] – but I don’t subscribe to the negative anti “everything the current government says” stance that seems to prevail here[straw man]
So, for the hard at understanding [ad hom]

The goad/insult/fallacy to actual point ratio is trully awesome
Well done

I get the feeling that Grum can argue his point , without his little helpers coming along TBF.

My comment was directed at duckman, not you. Pay attention at the back.

.

Ah, so no sense of humour on STW…

Not at all, I thought what followed was absolutely hilarious 🙂

teachers certainly do get lieu time

To whom do I send my application? I’ve been teaching 7 years and no **** has told me about this 😈

mrmoofo do you have anything to say other than we need change but there’s no money? If the professional teachers on here tell you that shorter summer holidays wouldnt help why do you not believe them? Take my long holiday and I’ll teach in the private sector for more money, same pension and longer holidays I would guess many other good teachers would too. 50% of new teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years despite it being so well payed, how do you propose your idea of change or Goves ideas of change will solve chronic teacher shortages?