do they believe we landed on the moon?

Wouldn’t you bounce off the firmament first? Or is it the other way round, I can’t remember now.

I meant did the aliens believe we landed on the moon 🙂

Mathematically speaking, given our current understanding of the universe, it seems very likely.

What do we understand that means it’s lilely there’s life anywhere else?
Other than “the universe is really really big so there might be a bit more life somewhere” … seems a bit of a presumptious assumption to make considering we have not identified anything trying to make contact with us, and we’ve found a massive total of absolutely zero evidence of life anywhere outside of our own atmosphere.

There also seems to be the assumption that the lack of or presence of water will dictate where life might be … considering evolution is apparently the way life appeared 🙄 , would it not seem likely that life might have evolved differently somewhere else, whereby water was not required to sustain it etc?

What do we understand that means it’s lilely there’s life anywhere else?

Infinity.

The chances of throwing one hundred dice and them all coming up six is really pretty vanishingly small, about 1 in 653318623500070906096690267158057820537143710472954871543071966369497141477376 by my reckoning.

But if you made an infinite number of throws then how many winners would we get?

Answer: an infinite number!

i.e. in an infinite problem space, if the probability of something happening is anything other than zero, then it happens in infinite number of times 😀

(Of course there is a good chance the universe isn’t actually infinite, and instead just really, really, really, really, big)

What do we understand that means it’s lilely there’s life anywhere else?

Infinity.

That’s more down to our understanding of maths rather than the understanding of the universe.

For a start, this only works if the universe is infinite.

However, all this looking for things that might not even be there has led us to discover all sorts of really interesting stuff, so it’s not all wasted.

seems a bit of a presumptious assumption to make considering we have not identified anything trying to make contact with us

Is it not more presumptuous to assume that there isn’t?

Contact is irrelevant. We’ve not been in contact with anyone else, does that prove we don’t exist?

i.e. in an infinite problem space, if the probability of something happening is anything other than zero, then it happens in infinite number of time

So space aliens have visited earth an infinite number of times?

I meant did the aliens believe we landed on the moon

During my weekend googling I found there’s some there’s some “evidence” that blurring of pictures highlights structures on the dark side of the moon (the space object not the album). I can’t remember now if the author claimed they we US, Russian or other life forms. 😀

Kryton57 went away, did some research, and came back on here with a revised opinion. Sounds like a decent and intelligent bloke to me

Maybe Molgrips, but people always need someone to point and gloat / laugh / criticise at, and those that have more knowledge and time than me to quote this things will have a superior hand – therefore as long as I continue posting (after Friday’s events here) I’ll never be able to alter thier actions or opinion toward me – I just don’t have the time or inclination to research to the nth conclusion.

So space aliens have visited earth an infinite number of times?

Only over an infinite amount of time, I expect.

(Of course there is a good chance the universe isn’t actually infinite, and instead just really, really, really, really, big)

Fair point. But, if its just really really really really big, what’s that, over there, on the other side of it? 😉

My head hurts

I think a slightly more interesting question is whether people, including “atheists/rationalists/humanists”, believe in intelligent extra-terrestrial life?
I’ll start, no.

I think it’s likely there’s simple/non-intelligent life in our own solar system right now, and very likely there’s intelligent life further out- and probably quite a lot of it.
As above though it’s unlikely we’ll ever meet them, so I don’t think there are aliens buzzing the Earth right now.

I think it’s likely there’s simple/non-intelligent life in our own solar system right now

I think some of it has forum logins.

(-:

Fair point. But, if its just really really really really big, what’s that, over there, on the other side of it?

The new improved Hope Pro2? 😉

As above though it’s unlikely we’ll ever meet them, so I don’t think there are aliens buzzing the Earth right now.

But given the infinite universe idea, there is no such thing as ‘unlikely’ is there?

Veering dangerously back on topic for a moment, I’ve just spotted this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings

Interesting reading for anyone still of a “NASA made it all up” persuasion, perhaps.

There also seems to be the assumption that the lack of or presence of water will dictate where life might be … considering evolution is apparently the way life appeared , would it not seem likely that life might have evolved differently somewhere else, whereby water was not required to sustain it etc?

There’s life on Earth that doesn’t need water or oxygen. (It looks like snot.) This increases the chance of there being life out there.

But, we know that life requiring water exists, so looking for evidence of water is a good place to start.

But given the infinite universe idea, there is no such thing as ‘unlikely’ is there?

But humans don’t/won’t have an infinite existence. So far, we’ve only been around for somewhere between 100000 and 250000 years, which is a blink in cosmic terms.

There’s a difference between unlikely ever and unlikely within a limited timeframe.

But humans don’t/won’t have an infinite existence. So far, we’ve only been around for somewhere between 100000 and 250000 years, which is a blink in cosmic terms.

Sure but some other race might have been here sometime in the last 6000 13 billion years and left something behind

There’s a difference between unlikely ever and unlikely within a limited timeframe.

Oh, that’s an interesting one. Do explain

Personally, as others note .given the size of the universe it is nearly inevitable there is other life out there – just due to the odds- we are finding earth like planets “locally” for example

I am less sure that it will be intelligent as it does seem we will **** up our planet and cause orself some seriious harm so evolutionary spoeaking it may not be that helpful to survival
I am even less sure [ almost certain] given the distances involved we are highly unlikely to be able to have a chat or know it for definite one way or the other
The balance of probabilities is on the side of yes but it is not conclusive

Other than “the universe is really really big so there might be a bit more life somewhere” … seems a bit of a presumptious

There is an equation and everything that you can question. Your view is also an assumption so its mute point

we have not identified anything trying to make contact with us, and we’ve found a massive total of absolutely zero evidence of life anywhere outside of our own atmosphere.

See contact point above and the size of the universe and of course absence of proof is not proof of absence
The universe is quite big and we have looked barely anywhere – what a moon and mars ish so small smaple size given the number of planets- its like me assuming nothing exists on earth that i cant see on my desk.

There also seems to be the assumption that the lack of or presence of water will dictate where life might be … considering evolution is apparently the way life appeared , would it not seem likely that life might have evolved differently somewhere else, whereby water was not required to sustain it etc?

Making quite a few assumptions there yourself 😉
Do you dount evolution?

We know nothing of exo biology so we generalise from here – anything we say is little more than science fiction

Sure but some other race might have been here sometime in the last 6000 13 billion years and left something behind

Possibly. But given what we know about geology and archeology, it’s unlikely to have survived or to be discovered by humans.

There’s a difference between unlikely ever and unlikely within a limited timeframe.

Oh, that’s an interesting one. Do explain

I’m unlikely to eat a biscuit in the next five minutes, but the probability increases as the timeframe increases.

Mmmm, biscuits. Will extra-terrestrial life have invented biscuits?

I’m unlikely to eat a biscuit in the next five minutes, but the probability increases as the timeframe increases.

Sure, but that is at an individual level, and doesn’t take into account the ‘infinite part’.

I thought you were going to show that the probability of something occurring within an infinite set increased with an increased time frame

Possibly. But given what we know about geology and archeology, it’s unlikely to have survived or to be discovered by humans.

Ok, so if it is possible, then from an infinite set, it has already happened, lots of times. Does this mean they have visited and all traces are gone?

Secondly, even if all earth bound traces are gone, surely SETI might have picked something up?

I thought you were going to show that the probability of something occurring within an infinite set increased with an increased time frame

I’m not an expert on set theory.

Ok, so if it is possible, then from an infinite set, it has already happened, lots of times. Does this mean they have visited and all traces are gone?

Or, they haven’t.

I thought you were going to show that the probability of something occurring within an infinite set increased with an increased time frame

Why would you think thet chances of something happening do not increase with time?

He did IMHO with the biscuit thought experiment- its like STW shroiedingers cat is it there is it not who knows

I’m not an expert on set theory.

You don’t need to be. I’m only asking if the number of outcomes is infinite, then time is not a factor is it?

You don’t need to be. I’m only asking if the number of outcomes is infinite, then time is not a factor is it?

Why don’t you tell me what you think?

Why don’t you tell me what you think?

Well, I thought ‘No’ but…
Because you said this

There’s a difference between unlikely ever and unlikely within a limited timeframe.

It seemed that I misunderstood something and I want to understand

/*edited for clarity*/

It seemed that I misunderstood something and I want to understand

I obviously didn’t explain clearly enough. In the limited time I have available to explain, it’s unlikely you’d understand. Perhaps you would if I had longer?

So space aliens have visited earth an infinite number of times?

Nope.

For one thing you are then dealing with intelligent decision rather than random chance (i.e. intelligent aliens would presumably need to decide they want to visit us for some reason).

But more importantly you are up against hard physical limitations which may completely prevent it from happening (i.e. the light barrier).

I obviously didn’t explain clearly enough. In the limited time I have available to explain, it’s unlikely you’d understand. Perhaps you would if I had longer?

so either you can try every (outcome) over time or they would all occur simultaneously and i would only need to hear the right one.

PAh they sent themselves here witha tachyon* beam GrahamS

* technically above light speed speeds are possible[ that is they dont violate Einsteins theory] but not for entitities that exist below light speed.

Applauds Mike – what a super answer

Single track – is there an actuall point to this – no offence like but I cant see one and I dont want to go to infinity to get an answer 😉

so either you can try every (outcome) over time or they would all occur simultaneously and i would only need to hear the right one.

Nope.

For one thing you are then dealing with intelligent decision rather than random chance (i.e. I would presumably need to decide I want you to understand for some reason).

But more importantly you are up against hard limitations which may completely prevent it from happening (i.e. my patience).

For one thing you are then dealing with intelligent decision rather than random chance (i.e. intelligent aliens would presumably need to decide they want to visit us for some reason).

Right, but there are Gazillions of them, and let’s say 1% of them decided to visit us, for a picnic, fun, long walks on the beach and good times, there would still be loads who decided to head over here, either physically or by sending some kind of signal. So still Bazillions would have made that decision.

But more importantly you are up against hard physical limitations which may completely prevent it from happening (i.e. the light barrier).

Why would that be a barrier to travel? they wouldn’t need tot travel fast than light, just take their time.

Ok, i see what you are doing now.

For one thing you are then dealing with intelligent decision rather than random chance (i.e. I would presumably need to decide I want you to understand for some reason).

I’d say you already mde that decision when you posted on here.

But more importantly you are up against hard limitations which may completely prevent it from happening (i.e. my patience).

I think it is more likely your own lack of understanding which is the barrier

seems a bit of a presumptious assumption to make considering we have not identified anything trying to make contact with us

Is it not more presumptuous to assume that there isn’t?

Seeing as there’s no inidication either way, at worst it’s equally as presumptious, not more.

* technically Mathematically above light speed speeds are possible[ that is they don’t violate Einstein’s theory] but not for entities that exist below light speed. the barrier separating subluminal and superluminal velocities requires infinite energy

Have you ever thought they might not be able to survive in our atmosphere?

The thing about alien life forces, it in reality we only know what we know and are limited by our knowledge and intelligence such that it is. Therefore, aliens appearing in a time / matter we don’t know, will not be obvious to us.

Two things that strike me as an example; EE Doc Smiths Series (Gaseous and mentally apparent life forms) and the “Marble” containing a universe in MIB – now, who’s to say that isn’t the case – and it could well be that our limited understanding / Einstein is currently being raucaously laughed at by other forms of life that may (or may not) surround us.

Right, but there are Gazillions of them, and let’s say 1% of them decided to visit us, for a picnic, fun, long walks on the beach and good times, there would still be loads who decided to head over here, either physically or by sending some kind of signal. So still Bazillions would have made that decision.

Yeah, but sadly an infinite number of them are infinitely far away 😀

And infinity is a long journey even at the speed of light.