Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 108 total)
  • Monday debate – Are some mountain bikers the worst enemy of the 'sport'?
  • muddyfunster
    Free Member

    rkk01 – Member

    Over the last few years there seems to be an attitude of “lets build a “trail centre” type run (or those sort of featrues) in our local woods / trails.

    I think you need to get some new lenses for your rose tinted specs, they are hindering your hindsight. People have been building trails long before trail centres appeared. Some of these trails even had (perish the thought) jumps and berms. Just because you weren’t aware of it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.

    ian martin
    Free Member

    Another great idea being implemented locally is to use people on ‘community service’ to build/ repair trails.
    We get work for free and they get transferable skills and a sense of achievement.

    muckytee
    Free Member

    FunkyDunc – Member

    Same goes for Esholt woods where there is old bits of wood and nail littered around…

    Where? I ride there a lot, I rode there yesterday, never seen a nail or plank of wood.

    Speaking of Esholt wood, IMO that is an example of doing it right. There are DH trails that see regular use, these trails were not built on footpaths/bridleways therefore only MTBers use them. This keeps us all Happy from my point of view. The DH/Freeriders ride their own dug trails, I ride the bits of singletrack usually in the mornings/evening when trail traffic is low so I can enjoy myself more and I don’t piss off/scare walkers and the walkers walk along the main path.

    Where I ride in Esholt wood, I am the “Yoof” but on an XC bike, and its blokes 25 – 35 who ride the dug DH trails. TBH I have probably scared more people as I am dressed in black and ride a silent singlespeed fast 😈

    You can see the multicoloured in yer face DH guys coming a mile off.

    Main point: I don’t think hat there is any thing wrong with jumps and “rad” trails, in fact it’s a good thing, more riders in the woods (so you can pinch an inner of them, or a multitool. More people about to help you when you have an off too). However When trails are made without consideration for other trail user, then it is a problem since it affects other users. I think people who want to do DH/freeride should make their own trails which only they will use, since those trails are specialized and require modification of the terrain.

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    jameso
    Full Member

    rkk01, i understand the (good) point about backgrounds, I think it’s part of the reason things have changed but like me talking about my yoof on bikes, times change and I’m sure we’re all accepting of that. Maybe others have seen it coming, for me I only recently realised that times could be changing for the worse. Pressure on space, social media, etc could be against us.

    What it’s come to for me is that I’ve realised having a blind-eye to these things isn’t sustainable and I’ve got in touch with a few people about what I may be able to help with to maintain access as well as the jumps where possible. There doesn’t seem to be any answers apart from self-policing that risks conflict with rider groups, or a more united direction on things from more of us talking to IMBA and the local access groups.

    Out of interest, are many here involved in that kind of thing? Can anyone point me to a good place to start apart from IMBA (who I mailed this am)? Thanks

    rkk01
    Free Member

    I think you need to get some new lenses for your rose tinted specs, they are hindering your hindsight.

    Not at all

    People have been building trails long before trail centres appeared.

    Did I say there was no trailbuilding in the past???

    – the difference is in the scale – the number, the size of trail features etc

    The OP refered to more capable bikes and riders.

    My “rose tinted” spectacles remember that XC and DH races were ridden by the same riders, that 80mm of elastomer front suss was an innovation. DH bikes were still hardtails. I do not believe that these memories have been corrupted by my specs, they are correct, yes?

    Yes, trails were built in the woods.
    Mostly they were “cheeky” xc trails. The kids on their bmxs would put a few scaffold planks over an old drum etc. The mtb kit wasn’t up to ladders, see-saws, big drops and gap jumps

    jameso
    Full Member

    Just because you weren’t aware of it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.

    maddyfunster, do you think it’s become more widespread in the last few years? I’ve always known of cheeky DH runs since I started riding, but in the SE there’s more appearing IMO, it could just be my perception or the less subtle nature of them though.

    globalti
    Free Member

    Actually I don’t have much of a problem with a bunch of kids building a few ramps in a little-used wood up the road as long as they don’t endanger or hinder anybody who wants to use a public footpath or bridleway. The trail-building I have seen is done fairly discretely in un-frequented areas and at least they are getting out and doing something constructive for the benefit of themselves and their mates. I don’t even view them as mountain bikers, more kids who like to jump their bikes over things. I occasionally see them trudging on foot up an easy road climb near my home, helmets hung over the bars and bikes too heavy to ride.

    However generally speaking, I have become completely disenchanted with mountain biking. When I started from a mountaineering background in 1988 you used the bike as a means to travel in open country and cover big distances. Since then we’ve seen the appearance of trail centres, the massive growth in numbers and the marketing of mountain biking as a cool glamorous money-making sport. I began to question the whole thing when I got involved in informal clubs and found myself charging around the countryside with big groups of people who had no respect for country lore and who didn’t have a clue how to study a map and work out an enjoyable legal route but viewed any trail as theirs to ride, who abused pedestrians and drivers, ignored the Highway Code and dropped litter and held up their club-mates because they were ill-prepared and ill-equipped. I tried a few trail centres and found them boring, repetitive and overcrowded, was shocked at the litter and the lack of consideration towards slower riders, the boorishness and egotism of a few riders and their lack of interest in the countryside around them.

    So yes, the mountain bikers themselves have played a big part in my loss of interest and my move to road riding.

    jameso
    Full Member

    rkk01, the way bikes and riding have progressed is part of it. Progress is good, I don’t think we’re against that in any way, but I will say it has a negative side. I’m at a bit of a loss to say whether it’s just inevitable that it will promote more conflict so it needs more active advocacy, or if it’s a minority issue that I’m becoming more aware of.
    But if i’m aware of it, others probably are too – like the guy who ranted at me calling me an ‘ars3hole mountain bike who causes more damage to the chilterns than the HS2 will’ while his wife filmed it on her phone on saturday – that’s rare, but becoming more common. That, and the trail features, clicked loudly as a link that day. There’s anti mtb idiots everywhere but maybe they have more ammo to fire now.

    (globalti, there’s still great expanses of XC for old-schoolers who like to be self-sufficient.. I hear some of what you say, but there’s no reason to be put of MTB due to that side of it?)

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    muckytee – Up the main track from the Esholt car park, ok I’m talking probably 4 years ago now, but there was quite a bit of North Shore stuff that was in bits on the right hand side towards the top.

    Its not safe to let your dog wander through stuff like that.

    I understand from more recent commments on here though that it has now been rebuilt… for the next 2 years before it becomes unpopular again

    rkk01
    Free Member

    globalti – Yep, pretty much where I was coming from.

    Rather than being disillusioned with mtbing, I’ve reverted to local riding from the door. Lucky enough to live somewhere with country lanes, woods, fields, “mountains” and forest all in pedalling distance

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    I’ve seen the sort of behaviour the OP describes locally and it can be fairly appalling.

    Yes comparisons between then and now can be rose-tinted, but seems that while cheeky trails used to be built by moving a few branhes and leaf litter and riding in a line, nowadays a lot of the FR/DH crowd start by skimming off the top layer of the soil and making a really wide track. Next stage is to build a load of jumps, usually with hidden pits top fall into because they can’t/won’t move enough earth from places off the line, and berm all the corners because of some preconceived idea of what a DH track should look like.

    That said, the people building this sort of stuff devote a lot of time and energy to it, knocking the jumps down won’t stop them, and complaining about it on a forum mostly frequented by older XC riders is the equivalent of putting an angry note in a bottle and chucking it into the sea.

    Can anyone point me to a good place to start apart from IMBA (who I mailed this am)?

    The Forestry Commission tend to be open-minded about rider-built stuff if it’s done appropriately. It can depend on what region you’re in or who you talk to, mind.

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    AlexSimon – Member

    As an aside, I think it’s interesting that one of the Peak District Bridleway descents (from A north to B here) has been moulded by (as I understand it) Peak Rangers to be more jumpy/flowy/burmy for bikes.

    Since then, it’s been tweaked a bit more (by them or by visitors, I don’t know).

    You think the Peak District National Park Authority has been deliberately adapting a track to make it more fun for mountain biking?

    philfive
    Free Member

    Is this more of a southern problem rather than a northern one?

    jameso
    Full Member

    The Forestry Commission tend to be open-minded about rider-built stuff if it’s done appropriately. It can depend on what region you’re in or who you talk to, mind.

    unfortunately it doesn’t sound that way here, but maybe it’s worth trying again )

    jameso
    Full Member

    ..Doesn’t make it right for them to stick things on footpaths, but when they say to us “so where are we supposed to practice our skills and freeriding” nobody has an answer. The kids who are from wealthier families get taken to trail centres in the car with bike parks to practice at, but for the kids who rarely get out of the city and whose families can’t afford to do that, they are more likely to be the ones building their own.

    Don’t get me wrong I’m absolutely not advocating people doing antisocial things and spoiling other’s enjoyment I just know from my work with young people that they can feel frustrated that there is nowhere for them to do these things and no resources to help them do it safely and out of the way of others who may be annoyed by it.

    I’m not disagreeing here and may sound out of touch, bear with me, but is it a case of mis-matched expectations and aspirations? Or a sense of entitlement rather than a make-best-of apporoach? I don’t want to be teh grumpy old man, I’m not that old ) , but when I was younger a 15-40 mile round trip on a bike to ride good XC / DH was normal to us. As was riding to school. An older generation would go further for less from what I undersand. Now i see kids ferried everywhere, so I wonder if there’s less of the can-do approach? I don’t blame them btw – attitudes change between generations. Also making your own scene is an important thing when you’re younger and a jump spot is a great scene to build. I’m interested in your opinion as someone closer to them than me, as I’m feeling like I should be acting on my general concern here. Local pump track, IMBA / FC etc.

    AlexSimon
    Full Member

    BadlyWiredDog

    You think the Peak District National Park Authority has been deliberately adapting a track to make it more fun for mountain biking?

    That’s what I was told. Of course, it’s second hand information and I didn’t physically witness them doing it, but I heard it from two independent sources. I’d be interested in hearing 1st hand info either way.

    littlemisspanda
    Free Member

    I do think you have a point there. The whole point of the youth forum in my area was to give some agency/ownership to young people and some responsibility for achieving the things they wanted and not just having it handed on a plate. That way if they wanted a jump track locally they could get the money, build it with some help and shape it into what they wanted.

    I agree that our generation was different (I’m aorund the 30 mark). We used to happily ride off for the day into the countryside but most kids I work with would not be allowed to. Parents seem to be much more risk-averse. Lots of schools where I live have banned riding to school because of the problem of expensive bikes being nicked/trashed, as well as the safety issues of traffic round schools and inconsiderate idiots in 4×4’s dropping their kids off and no consideration for speed or road markings in school zones.

    Parents seem happier to ferry their kids almost 2 hours to a place like Dixons Hollow at Dalby so they can watch them do their thing and somehow it makes them feel better about the prospect of them having an accident than if they had an accident whilst riding with their mates in the local woods unsupervised.

    I was actually at Dixons Hollow yesterday on a separate note and was disheartened to find adults behaving quite aggressively towards some of the kids there, not leaving enough time for the kids to get round the tracks in their own time and coming up behind them quickly, railroading them. Disappointed me – we should be encouraging the younger generation of MTB-ers not pushing them off the tracks because they get in the way of those who want to go faster.

    soulwood
    Free Member

    This is one of the most interesting posts I have ever read on STW. Some interesting observations that I too have had but never commented on as I thought it was just me. Like seeing kids pushing bikes with full facers hanging off the bars along relatively flat roads. I always held the maxim “If you can’t ride back don’t ride there” I started MTB’ing in the late 80’s and I guess if you’ve never being openly laughed at and pointed at by people as you ride past on your mtb wearing a helmet, I guess you would think that all the trails belong to you alone. One thing still bugs me though and it isn’t the “yoof” it’s the middle agers (although I am getting there myself). I regularly see groups of mtbers on nice expensive bikes when I am out on my bike and am amazed when they don’t even look towards you to acknowledge you to say hello. Again I suppose this is due to being around when there was just me and a few mates and you rarely saw another mtber. As said on here its the price for the sport being more mainstream and heavily marketed I suppose. No community feeling anymore?

    mark_b
    Free Member

    FunkyDunc – Member

    muckytee – Up the main track from the Esholt car park, ok I’m talking probably 4 years ago now, but there was quite a bit of North Shore stuff that was in bits on the right hand side towards the top.

    Its not safe to let your dog wander through stuff like that.

    I understand from more recent commments on here though that it has now been rebuilt… for the next 2 years before it becomes unpopular again

    My understanding is it was Yorkshire Water (who own the land?) who took it down and left the debris.

    Current building up there is more natural/slightly more subtle – but there are still some ‘gap jumps’ that go across the main trail that comes out the back of the car park near Esholt Farm.

    I’ve seen pictures of the riders taping off the track and putting spotters in place whilst hitting the gaps/drops, which whilst not perfect at least shows a sense of appreciation for other trail users.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    The perpetrators in the OP will learn to be more subtle with their trailbuilding if their jumps in obvious places keep getting flattened.

    It’s a really great thing that there are so many young people riding bikes and being enthusiastic enough to build jumps.

    If they’re anything like me when I was young, they probably don’t see it as a “sport”, just what they enjoy doing.

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    That’s what I was told. Of course, it’s second hand information and I didn’t physically witness them doing it, but I heard it from two independent sources. I’d be interested in hearing 1st hand info either way.

    I guess Bruce, who posts on here as ‘oldagedpredator’ would know for sure, but I’d be surprised if the PDNPA was building jumps and berming corners on a bridleway – fwiw, the lower part of that track was always pretty much like that, though the middle bit was a mess of ribboned tracks that was had to pick a clean line through.

    jameso
    Full Member

    lmp- We can’t do alot about risk-averse parents and the affect it has on the children, that’s the world we’re in. Problem I’m seeing is that risk-aversity is there in the landowners too.. easier to ban people / bikes than fear being sued.

    Thinking about it, I can’t remember the last time i saw a small group of 12-15yr olds riding anywhere but a DH / jump spot. Is that related to their view of what’s cool (my guess) or not being allowed out for a day-ride like I used to (hope not, but maybe?). I know a friend who runs a shop all but gave up taking younger riders on XC trips due to insurance and liability ‘red-tape’.

    I can see how kids get despondant..!

    If we assume / generalise that adults know better when it comes to digging in prominent places and see the reasons why young riders dig in daft places, answers / conclusions are forming.

    jameso
    Full Member

    If they’re anything like me when I was young, they probably don’t see it as a “sport”, just what they enjoy doing

    A valid point that I’d overlooked.. I was assuming they used myface.com etc and read MBUK but maybe not.
    I’ll admit I have in the past removed fresh earth+woodwork in places that really were daft, but it seems a less constructive way of directing people’s efforts.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Thinking about it, I can’t remember the last time i saw a small group of 12-15yr olds riding anywhere but a DH / jump spot.

    I’m not just being contrary, but yesterday I met about five kids this age riding XC on a selection of crap bikes.

    I got a little bit stoked.

    🙂

    jameso
    Full Member

    mini-stoke for kids-xc )

    jumpers for top-tube pads eh

    littlemisspanda
    Free Member

    If they’re anything like me when I was young, they probably don’t see it as a “sport”, just what they enjoy doing.

    I think there’s some truth in that too….

    XC riding doesn’t have the same “cool” appeal as DH/freeride – some of them would see it as what their parents (and youth workers) like to do, and therefore very uncool! It worked the same for me when I was younger, my parents were into their cycling but it was touring bikes/hybrids and off roading for them was a canal path….when I was 11 I was determined to have a MTB and go off roading and I wouldn’t have been seen dead doing the type of cycling they did! However I had mates to ride with and we just used to go off and explore.

    And yes, it is also a health and safety minefield to take groups of younger riders out and get them enjoying the trails. Maybe if they did get a chance to see what’s out there on natural trails and in the countryside they might see more appeal in it….

    Sanny
    Free Member

    It’s funny but I can’t remember the last time I experienced user conflict or came accoss a shonky piece of questionable trail alteration. I ride a lot all over the country on numerous trails and would struggle to recall any poor behaviour. In my experience, most folk are more than alright but there is the odd exception in any walk of life who can’t see beyond their own little world.

    Last week when taking my daughter to nursery through Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow, there was a team of workies from the Council cleaning up the litter that was strewn across the park. Nice weather seems to bring out the selfish ejits who drop bottles, litter, fags, portable barbeques etc at their arse once they have finished with them. It looked like someone had emptied the bins over the grass and just walked away. It wouldn’t surprise me if the same folk were the first in the queue to complain about the mess. The lack of common sense and general respect for the environment and other people is depressing.

    Similarily, when climbing Ben Lawers with the bike the Sunday before, near the summit we passed a pile of curiously brown toilet paper on the path from An Stuc. Clearly, someone had succumbed to the need to poo in the open air but couldn’t make it off path. Yeuch!

    I guess the lesson is that there are tools in all walks of life. I can see no reason why mountain bikers should be any different. I guess it gives me impetus to be extra polite and smiley when out and about on my bike and prove that not everyone on a bike is a chump! 😀

    jameso
    Full Member

    sanny you’re right on the tools point.. and a good reason to be cheery, agreed. unf for us bike-tools plus a ride in normal biker use can get us banned from an area in a worst-case situ, tools in parks and on foot (and cars, in pubs etc) are just the worst side of everyday people and not seen as ‘minorities’ that can be regulated in the same restrictive kind of way. I know it rarely comes to a ban, but the pressure is there and i think it can be more easily done by the FC / a landowner?

    nick3216
    Free Member

    +1 OP

    It has been going on since at least the mid 90s tho’. Someone dismantled a drystone wall on Longridge Fell back then to try and make a cheeky muddy trail (the one East of the trig point) more rideable and next thing there were No Cycling signs appearing at the entrance to footpaths.

    The cheeky jumps in the woods were I live now have been abandoned as the youths have graduated to mini-motos through the crops cos its more extreme* innit.

    * By “extreme” I mean, “easier to go fast by twisting a throttle instead of using legs and lungs”. They are nice lads but lazy and thick.

    vondally
    Free Member

    as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like ****ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like ****ts on shared paths – think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

    agreed these people…..i passed a load same age as me mid to late 40s said hello and no response saw them later blasting down a footpath, rode a couple of miles and found them again to be asked did i have a tool kit as they has a puncture and no tool kit 😕

    Most young people i have met have been great chatting and out having a good time, build but not on the footpath…..30 ft away in the tress great.

    Littlemisspanda..youth services cuts are truley terrible..

    nick3216
    Free Member

    @littlemisspanda – you have seen Ali G haven’t you?

    muddyfunster
    Free Member

    as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like ****ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like ****ts on shared paths – think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

    agreed these people…..i passed a load same age as me mid to late 40s said hello and no response saw them later blasting down a footpath, rode a couple of miles and found them again to be asked did i have a tool kit as they has a puncture and no tool kit

    IMO Trail centres have also attracted a different type of “intake” into the sport. For all the people I used to know who were into mtb (early 90s or so), it was an extension of their other “outdoors” sports – climbing, mountaineering, caving, canoeing, fell running even (almost no crossover with road riding

    That background tends to come with an ingrained respect for the outdoors. A desire to go to the wilder places and to have minimal impact.

    Today the sport is much more popular – with the yoof and the middle agers who formerly (prob still do) chase small white balls and wear Pringle jumpers.

    On the other hand, blasting past a group of special needs hikers on a multi-use trail with full face helmets (where it’s not needed) Traffic on that trail seems to have reduced and the only people I’ve seen down it in daylight hours lately have been the full-face brigade. I still use the trail after dark in the winter months when there is no issue with meeting anybody else on the trail never mind having any conflict with hikers.

    Yes, I really think we should continue to demonise people who dress or ride differently from ourselves. The way I ride, the bike I ride, where I ride, when I ride what I wear and how I wear it all demarcate me as the one who is righteous. And I have obviously been riding the longest as well.

    Does anyone else see a pathetic irony emerging in this thread? A certain type of mountainbiker attempting to pigeon hole every other type of mountain biker into groups based on assumptions drawn from how they dress ?

    Meanwhile, on a rambling forum ……

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    When I was a kid 20 years back, everyone used to go to chertsey park to ride the jumps and berms and stuff there, sort of unofficial but tolerated jump spot. Every so often at that kind of place some busybody would come and moan at you, but it didn’t stop anyone riding or building. That was on 10 speeds, girls bikes etc. I guess some kids have fancier bikes, but I dunno how much has really changed except for the size of the jumps?

    littlemisspanda
    Free Member

    @ nick – not recently no!

    binners
    Full Member

    joemarshall +1

    Did none of you lot ride BMXs? When I was a kid we wouldn’t just dig jumps. We’d regularly ‘liberate’ materials from building sites (4×2, plywood) and (badly) construct the most dangerous and ill-conceived structures, then launch ourselves off them on our bikes.

    The nice middle class kids a few miles up the road used to get their parents to use their influence on the local council to get them skateparks and stuff built.

    This was just our equivalent

    crikey
    Free Member

    Mountain bikers are there own worst enemies, but they haven’t got the sense to be anything but.

    The whole cheeky trail thing is simply riding where you shouldn’t; it may be stupid, it may be archaic, it maybe indefensible, but the flip side is worse.

    Now people see any bit of land where they can ride as fair game for jumps and berms and so on, and this is making the problem into one of increasingly visible anti-social behaviour.

    I walked around our local country park, which backs onto Access land over the moors, only to see tyre tracks ripping up the edges of a recently restored vegetation planting session designed to reduce the erosion at the moor edge. This is local riders, not kids, on big travel bikes looking for a thrill and not giving a crap.

    nick3216
    Free Member

    “there is nothin round ere in Staines for us kids to do except…”

    reels off long list.

    neanwhile the lads next door I alluded to do not have a pot in which to piss but seem to find fun things to do to occupy their time without the need for youth services.

    antigee
    Full Member

    pathetic irony

    Just a bit of run of the mill stereotyping

    jameso
    Full Member

    joemarshall, very true, but if it’s in one tolerated spot it’s never an issue, there’s a spot like that not far from Aston Hill and it seems to be accepted for now, it’s the random stuff that crosses well-walked paths that I’m talking about.

    I’m not sure if picking out a few stereotypes has much to do with this, we all ride so it’s a problem for any of us where there’s stuff built that is too obvious / dangerous etc. Riding it or turning a blind eye as I would makes me part of the issue to an extent. Woburn was threatened with closure, Cranham area has had a long process to avoid a ban, etc. It’s not a new problem but the way it’s publicised and reacted to certainly is changing.

    How many on here do get involved with any access groups, or have any experience in this area to share?

    Pieface
    Full Member

    Unless I’m very much mistaken, this photo (taken from the Cotic Rocket demo article on this very website) http://singletrackworld.com/2012/04/cotic-rocket-cleared-for-take-off/

    Shows riders here

    http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=425475&Y=375637&A=Y&Z=115&ax=425478&ay=375637

    A popular footpath in the busiest National Park along Curbar Edge. One could argue that journo’s should be advocates of our sport and promote good practise, whereas these photo’s published on what is quoted as being the busiest bike forum would suggest that they encourage the use of illegal trail riding. Perhaps the worst case of MTBers being our own worst enemies?

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