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  • Monbiot on the psychology of left and right (political content)
  • molgrips
    Free Member

    I found this brilliant – an eloquent expression of what I’ve been thinking for years.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2010/oct/11/left-values-progressive-self-interest

    Those who strongly value financial success, for example, have less empathy, stronger manipulative tendencies, a stronger attraction to hierarchy and inequality, stronger prejudices towards strangers and less concern about human rights and the environment. Those with a strong sense of self-acceptance have more empathy and greater concern for human rights, social justice and the environment.

    I have often asked myself if it is possible to be staunchly right-wing AND have a high degree of empathy and compassion at the same time. I tend to think not.

    clubber
    Free Member

    I’d make the same case for being strongly left-wing too though… at least in the real world rather than a utopian ideal.

    druidh
    Free Member

    I have often asked myself if it is possible to be staunchly right-wing AND have a high degree of empathy and compassion at the same time. I tend to think not.

    Then you’d be wrong.

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    molgrips
    Free Member

    Elaborate, druidh?

    MrNutt
    Free Member

    The guy is a bandwagoning self adoring git of the highest order, I’m surprised he’s not made a dash for leader of the country

    nickc
    Full Member

    Interesting article, thanks ‘grips

    mogrim
    Full Member

    molgrips – Member
    Elaborate, druidh?

    I’m guessing he’s thinking of the huge number of US millionaires who donate large amounts of money to charity, for example Bill Gates, Warren Buffet…

    aracer
    Free Member

    IMHO he/you got it wrong when you started talking about “left wing” and “right wing” as if a particular ideology has to be one side or the other.

    phil.w
    Free Member

    So here we are, forming an orderly queue at the slaughterhouse gate. The punishment of the poor for the errors of the rich

    what’s that? Monbiot, poor, on Guardian wages? I think not.

    That’s actually quite insulting.

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    I have often asked myself if it is possible to be staunchly right-wing AND have a high degree of empathy and compassion at the same time. I tend to think not.

    I tend to find that the those on the left side of the argument have an intrinsically lower expectation of the behaviour of their fellow humans. It is therefore perceived as a requirement that we have an arbiter to regulate and monitor the activities of citizens rather than trust them to behave.

    The right wing tend perceive the same problems of injustice and unfairness and in my experience are just as invested in resolving the issues, they just tend not to believe that the government is the way to fix them and that the government does in fact distort the ability of society to work in a fair and just manner.

    Ones political standing ultimately has no bearing on your capacity for compassion, just the way that you believe it should be implemented in society.

    U31
    Free Member

    I’m guessing he’s thinking of the huge number of US millionaires who donate large amounts of money to charity, for example Bill Gates, Warren Buffet…

    I dont believe there is ever true altruism, i’d imagine the gestures are possibly to sway the guilt of having obscene amounts of capital at their disposal, and define large? Would it even dent the balance of their interest earned?

    nickc
    Full Member

    U31, it’s not a recent phenomena I think it was Carnegie who said “He who dies rich dies Shamed” He gave away something like $4bil (in current value) and built something daft like 3000 libraries.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I’d make the same case for being strongly left-wing too though…

    That is beacuse you lack emoathy and cannot see how much we have 😆

    I get waht torminalis is getting at but it is a great over simplificatioon with slightly snidey overtones

    those on the left side of the argument have an intrinsically lower expectation of the behaviour of their fellow humans

    for example,which give away your sympathies.
    I suspect lefties care more – the caring professions are predominanently leftish , nurses, teachers etc and capitalism typoe jobs are more right wing say accountancy, banking, business law etc
    I suspect all political hues are capable of empathy. That thatcher had a great empathy with the working class iirc

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Torminalis – history has shown many times that people who are driven to get to the top will frequently do so treading on the backs of others. So if the right wing thinks that the world will naturally tend to a state of generosity and enlightened compassion, they are wrong.

    People aren’t often able to understand the suffering of people they don’t know personally – and this seems far more true of those who have ‘right wing’ politics in my experience.

    Right wing: “it’s their own fault for being poor, so stuff ’em” … ? (discuss)

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    which give away your sympathies

    Not intended to be snidey but your assumption about my political leanings is correct.

    I do not try to hide my sympathies, I am quite open about the fact I spend quite a lot of time trying to reconcile my libertarian fantasies with my abundant compassion. 😆

    mogrim
    Full Member

    I dont believe there is ever true altruism, i’d imagine the gestures are possibly to sway the guilt of having obscene amounts of capital at their disposal, and define large? Would it even dent the balance of their interest earned?

    I think the plan was to give away 99% of their wealth, which although it would probably still leave more than I’ll learn in my whole lifetime, will definitely dent the “balance of their interest earned”.

    clubber
    Free Member

    That is beacuse you lack emoathy and cannot see how much we have

    And you’re betraying your lack of empathy in your assuming that I’m a right winger… 😉

    U31
    Free Member

    Sometimes it is thier own fault for being poor, Mol…
    Look at the generations of council estate charvers whos only aspiration in life seems to amount to eating pasties and imbibing Stella…

    The wife came from one of those estates and did the best she could to climb up off that upbringing and do the best she can. Others in her family adhere to stereotype.

    Im not saying we are well off by any means, but we are trying at least, no drinking (or partaking!) except on saturday night, and never in front of the kids. Trying instil values in the kids such as work is better then being a “Pasty Mum” (ie, squirting out kids for a house and state handouts, when the kid cries, thats ok, stuff a pasty in its gob)

    clubber
    Free Member

    history has shown many times that people who are driven to get to the top will frequently do so treading on the backs of others. So if the right wing thinks that the world will naturally tend to a state of generosity and enlightened compassion, they are wrong.

    History has shown many times that left wing ideals in the real world get abused and don’t work. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong

    Right wing: “it’s their own fault for being poor, so stuff ’em” … ? (discuss)

    Left wing – people are too stupid to make the right decisions so we’ll make them for them.

    Equally stupid generalisation, molgrips 🙄

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    So if the right wing thinks that the world will naturally tend to a state of generosity and enlightened compassion, they are wrong.

    The big question is: can this change? The focus of our evolution these days is not physical or mental but rather social and the internet and communication technologies are changing this quicker than we could have imagined.

    Will there come a point when government is no longer actually required because we have found our perfectly transparent markets for everything from human rights to wristwatches?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Sometimes it is thier own fault for being poor, Mol…

    Right.. so why are the aspirations of those people so limited?

    U31
    Free Member

    Beats me…

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    Right.. so why are the aspirations of those people so limited?

    Government does not grow by seizing our freedoms, but by assuming our responsibilities. – Michael Cloud

    aracer
    Free Member

    no drinking (or partaking!) except on saturday night, and never in front of the kids

    I’m intrigued that you consider that a virtue – I suspect it says more about your attitude to alcohol than it does mine (haven’t even considered the idea of only drinking on certain days, and sometimes take the kids to the pub for a meal out, having a beer whilst I’m there).

    U31
    Free Member

    Not having that argument, Torminalis, this kind of behaviour existed way before social security

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Right.

    Are they just being conditioned by their lifestyles?

    Another seemingly right-wing tendency I have observed is to not bother to try and understand why people do the things they do.. perhaps tied to empathy?

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    Before social security, you starved or relied on the kindness of your family/community if you were not prepared/able to work.

    The culture of dependency that we have at the moment is a direct result of people having the option. There will always be lazy people and power to them, I am one of them to a certain extent, I just have sufficient compassion (see what I did there?) for my fellow man not to be a burden upon them.

    U31
    Free Member

    A racer… Meaning i’m not in any way an alchie or a druggie…
    There existence isnt hidden from the kids, we just demonstrate they need not be an everyday thing condusive to living.

    Badly worded by me in the original post. The kids have of course accompanied us to pub meals, where a pint has been drunk…

    aracer
    Free Member

    You seem to be having problems understanding the right wing, molgrips – maybe you should try harder to empathise with them?

    aracer
    Free Member

    Meaning i’m not in any way an alchie or a druggie…

    Neither am I – but I don’t really feel the need to shout about it, or demonstrate it’s not so by limiting when I drink.

    Maybe I’m just not empathising!

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    not bother to try and understand why people do the things they do

    I was just trying to offer a suggestion as to why I thought that we now have an underclass who depend on the rest of us to subsidise their lifestyles. I am not trying to blame individuals (though there are no doubt individuals who could be blamed), I am saying it is a systemic fault with the way we organise ourselves.

    Make any assumptions you like about me, they will inevitably be wrong, I am just trying to liven up the debate.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Before social security, you starved or relied on the kindness of your family/community if you were not prepared/able to work.

    Lol! That worked really well didn’t it?

    What if you had no friends or family?

    maybe you should try harder to empathise with them?

    Isn’t that what this thread is about?

    It seems to me that many of the right wing persuasion don’t understand that not everyone is capable of pulling themselves out of a hole. And that if they are’t, they don’t deserve to be on the scrapheap.

    El-bent
    Free Member

    The right wing are easy to understand and as such harder to empathise with.

    They use statements like these,

    When government accepts responsibility for people, then people no longer take responsibility for themselves. –

    To claim that the we’d be better off without the state, or that should be they’d be better off without the state and f*ck everyone else.

    clubber
    Free Member

    Isn’t that what this thread is about?

    not really – as far as I can work out, it’s just another thread with stupid ‘my views are better than yours’ comments being bandied about.

    Some right wingers are complete ****s so are some left wingers. To try and negatively characterise a whole group because they don’t agree with your views is just stupid and suggests that you lack real empathy for anyone who doesn’t immediately fit in with your views or view of the world. Pretty much like the stereotypical little Englander who doesn’t like darkies, chavs, the unemployed, single mums etc because, ‘well, they’re different, aren’t they?’.

    U31
    Free Member

    I only drink on Saturday night, as that is our night off? Fairly hard to grasp, i know, but hey ho..
    I dont drink or do other stuff during the week, as it is’nt at the core of my existance, but i do take it for recreation on my saturday night out.
    The kids know we go out to drink, it isnt in any way hidden as a guilty secret.

    Torminalis
    Free Member

    It seems to me that many of the right wing persuasion don’t understand that not everyone is capable of pulling themselves out of a hole. And that if they are’t, they don’t deserve to be on the scrapheap.

    I am a right winger and I do not believe that people should be encouraged to fall by the wayside but that seems to be what our current system does.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    not really – as far as I can work out, it’s just another thread with stupid ‘my views are better than yours’ comments being bandied about.

    That wasn’t what I wanted it to be.

    To try and negatively characterise a whole group because they don’t agree with your views is just stupid

    Clearly.

    The issue is whether or not there are tendencies to be observed within those two groups (those holding left or right wing views).

    I would love an intelligent debate about the ideas discussed in the article.. even if the result is that it’s bollx. I’m not holding Monbiot up as a champion but I do think this article is one of the most insightful I’ve read – in places! I don’t much care for the tribalist aspects of it.

    I do not believe that people should be encouraged to fall by the wayside but that seems to be what our current system does.

    Quite possibly. Very difficult challenge tho. Simply cutting or withdrawing benefits is going to hurt too many innocent people I fear.

    U31
    Free Member

    So where do i lie in all this?
    I class myself as ideally a Marxist, yet i know it can never work in this world, so vote Conservative as the best working alternative

    clubber
    Free Member

    Which neatly demonstrates the stupidity of trying to label people as right or left wing and making assumptions about them on that basis alone.

    U31
    Free Member

    I’d love Marxism to work, but i’m not stupid enough to believe that all Pigs are equal to other Pigs. Some are always more equal than others

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 165 total)

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