Examples have to be made of these critters.

If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.

Examples do have to be made, examples of the parents. Appropriate punishment should be handed out to them. If the Children are morally unaware of there actions are they any different to an animal that attacks after an horendous upbringing.

Punishment for the parents and an inquiry into how the system let things get this far should be the first things on our minds. The situation is horrific but one that we hope not to see again if it can be avoided

Their primary school and mine feed the same secondary. I'm asking myself if I'm happy with one of them joining my kids form in school in five years. I can't say yes to that.

i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse

Presumably most of those kids had some exposure to a loving family though? I suspect it is easier for a young mind to see that something is wrong/bad when it's an external person that arrives and commits those acts.

When the very people who should be bringing you up and teaching you these things are drugging and torturing you then I suspect the effect is far more insidious.

But still, are you saying that all children in Bosnia are well behaved because their legal system is much better at dealing with child offenders??

…mass graves and ethnic cleansing

So clearly no signs of a cycle of violence then? 🙄

Double entry

mi©k – Member

coyote yes ive got four as it happens. my point was not so much that a 10 year old is the same as a 16 year old but why cant a 16 year old be treated and turned around if the ten year old can. or why dont they really seem to attempt to at least try ?

You can with a 16 yr old and good prisons will try to. Rehabilitation is a part of what prisons should do.

The real difference is that we can expect a 16 yr old to know right from wrong, we cannot at 10 yrs old.

ah but graham that was the adults doing that and they according to most cant be helped as theyve already broken their moral compass

and not the children over there didnt murder each other out of bordom as they still no doubt knew right from wrong

anyways if they can be cured then good if they cant i hope non of my family are living in the area they get rehomed in

tj i simply cannot believe a ten year old didnt think that what they did was wrong regardless of upbringing. but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives.

barnsleymitch – Member
"What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?"
Because life sentences in this country only rarely mean life. If you look back at my other posts on here, I'm sure you'll see that I'm not saying they shouldnt have recieved a custodial sentence, but should be given adequate and appropriate help whilst serving that sentence – I agree that what they did was vile, evil even, but the bottom line is that they are children.

The bottom line is surely that they have ruined somebody's life. They have lost all their rights to any sense of normal life. If this involves locking them up and forgettign about them, then so be it. They do not DESERVE to be allowed to walk the streets. Not for the fact that they may reoffend, (as already said, probably likely) but because they simply no not DESERVE to be around. If they had done the same to my children, I wouldn't be concerned about using them as a study to understand why they did it. I know why they did it. Their parents are idiots. The kids are ten, and in my eyes, completely aware of what they were doing. No psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.

I genuinely wonder if we can ever sort out kids like these. I hope we can. Ideally we would have a good system of adoption in place, as the statistics suggest that kids brought in car have a fair chance of being further abused and ending up in prison.

In my opinion, there should be serious consequences for the parents. Preferably longer jail sentences than the kids get. Something needs to be done to give the message that people need to bring their kids up in a sane manner.

the children over there didnt murder each other out of bordom as they still no doubt knew right from wrong

And was that because they knew they would face execution?

No psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.

You mean the devil made them do it?

Maybe we should consult a priest. 🙄

mi©k – Member

tj i simply cannot believe a ten year old didnt think that what they did was wrong regardless of upbringing. but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives.

thank you for actually thinking about this rather than just jerking that knee.

"but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives. "

I hope so to.

Someone needs to be punished for this. Blame and consequently the punishment should first and foremost be distributed to the parents. Secondly the Social Services needs a complete and utter overhaul, like from the ground up. There role, as i understand at least, is to be the safety net for children such as these little shites. As in this case, they were and had been involved with this 'family' for years, then what the hell have they been doing…But no they walk away and move on to the next 'case', unpunished or even questioned. Also the people who committed this act of sustained violence must be punished. How, well i will keep that to myself, but they must realise that there is a consequence to their actions.

Finally the 'true' victims in all of this, the poor kids who were put through the sinks, bricks and other ridiculous items that they were battered with, the ones who have really been at the rough end of the failings i have already put down must be compensated. By whom…

Who else but the government, they are the over-seeyers of every single thing that goes off in this country… The end

GrahamS – Member

No psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.

You mean the devil made them do it?

Maybe we should consult a priest.

No GrahamS. I didn't say the devil made them do it, did I now?!

quite possibly it was graham s i will never know as im not going back ;-0

anyway like ive said lets hope all four kids can be turned around to some kind of normal life

The only thing I hope for is that they are not allowed to breed until they have shown themselves to be relatively normal (whatever 'normal' is) after secure rehabilitation.

The last thing we need is for this level of violence to go to the next generation.

I'll never have kids (the idea scares me because of the responsibility of looking after another life!) but the idea that having children is a right and not a privilege is waaay out with these two.

No GrahamS. I didn't say the devil made them do it, did I now?!

So what made them "evil" if it wasn't psychology or the devil? Martians maybe?

"Evil" is a cop out word that people use to reassure themselves.
It suggests that some other thing is responsible.

What they did was evil, but to suggest they simply did it because "they're evil" is as meaningful as saying they were possessed by demons.

anyway like ive said lets hope all four kids can be turned around to some kind of normal life

Agreed.

No child of ten has a fully developed moral compass

When I was ten, if I stayed out after the time I was supposed to be home I knew I was in trouble!

If at ten years old, regardless of exposure to whatever films/ video games etc have supposedly corrupted them, they couldn't tell that extreme violence was wrong then they deserve to taken out of normal society. If they are unable to be rehabilitated then they do not deserve to ever rejoin society.

Edit: I couldn't see it mentioned on the BBC site but I assume the father will be charged with obstructing the course of justice:

A short time later, as police and locals gathered to search for the 11-year-old who was still missing, officers were approached by the attackers and their father.

He said his sons had been with him and were not responsible for any attack. The two brothers just stood there and at no time volunteered any information about where their victim was lying.

dickydutch – I find your suggestion that I feel the most appropriate course of action regarding the two boys would be to 'use them as a study to understand why they did it' both naive and insulting -(I presume that the comment was aimed at either me or TJ). You're absolutely right, the victims lives have effectively been ruined, and our priorities should lie with them, but the children who carried out the attack had their lives ruined a long time ago. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why they did it either – no boundaries, 'parents' who never gave a toss, exposure to drink and drugs, overexposure to sex and violence – not difficult is it? If anyone should be 'punished', it's the parents, but that's unlikely to happen, and ultimately wont make what happened go away.

barnsleymitch – ygm

TJ – email in profile.

barnsleymitch – Member
dickydutch – I find your suggestion that I feel the most appropriate course of action regarding the two boys would be to 'use them as a study to understand why they did it' both naive and insulting -(I presume that the comment was aimed at either me or TJ). You're absolutely right, the victims lives have effectively been ruined, and our priorities should lie with them, but the children who carried out the attack had their lives ruined a long time ago. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why they did it either – no boundaries, 'parents' who never gave a toss, exposure to drink and drugs, overexposure to sex and violence – not difficult is it? If anyone should be 'punished', it's the parents, but that's unlikely to happen, and ultimately wont make what happened go away.

Fair cop. It has come across like that though – admittedly not from yourself when re-reading.
You seem to imply that the kids shouldn't be punished though? That, to me, is illogical. It certainly doesn't teach them to be responsible for their own actions.

No GrahamS. I didn't say the devil made them do it, did I now?!

So what made them "evil" if it wasn't psychology or the devil? Martians maybe?

"Evil" is a cop out word that people use to reassure themselves.
It suggests that some other thing is responsible.

What they did was evil, but to suggest they simply did it because "they're evil" is as meaningful as saying they were possessed by demons.

How is it a cop out word? It's an adjective as per:

Evil–adjective 1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition

Sadly no reference to martians, or how it is used as a form of reassuring oneself that something else is responsible for the depraved actions of someone.

This notion that they didn't know that what they were doing was wrong is pissweak. Hitler thought what he was doing was right!

Am I the only person who's read articles about their mother lacing their food with cannabis? All the "blame the parents" comments seem to be focussing on the father, but the bits I've read imply that the mother wasn't any better.

I'd be in favour of stringing the parents up, and trying to civilise the kids, but I don't have kids or experience of psychiatric work, so that's just an opinion.

Do we know whether the victims have made a physical recovery?

Dicky – I've worked in forensic psychiatry for over twenty years, and only twice in that time have I come across people that I feel deserved the description 'evil'. Both were well publicised, high profile cases, but as they are still alive, It would no doubt land me in the s**t if I were to discuss them further. More often than not, people who carry out these kind of acts are very much damaged themselves. I'm not saying this excuses their actions – at the end of the day we (usually) have a choice in what we do, but in situations such as this, where kids are the perpetrators, we just dont know how developed or otherwise their moral compasses were. I'm rambling a bit here, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I dont feel the two boys were (entirely) responsible for what they did. I'm not for one minute trying to 'excuse' their actions or minimise what they did, I just feel that the people who were supposed to be providing a safe, appropriate environment for them have played their part in this sad affair as well.

How is it a cop out word? It's an adjective as per:

It's a cop out because you are saying that they did it, not as a result of their terrible upbringing, their own abuse, their morale-less environment, or any "psychology about this and that", but purely because "They're evil. Simple."

The truth is, it's not "simple".

You may wish it to be so: that way we could deploy righteous mob mentality and punish them. String them up without a second thought. No point wondering if there are any lessons to be learned that could prevent this, because there aren't. They were just inherently "evil".

That's why it's a cop out.

By declaring someone "evil" as the justification for their actions you are disassociating yourself from them. You're reassuring yourself that there is no possible way YOU would have ever done that, when the far uglier truth is that any child brought up as they were, could turn out the same.

barnsleymitch.
I understand and appreciate you have more relevant experience than me – indeed, I have zero relevant experience.
I feel a lot of it boils down to the fact that recently, parents seem to be able to leave their kids to do whatever they want, with little or no consequence. I thinkt he whole system needs addressing fromt he bottom up.
I enjoyed the verbal spar!

Graham S.
We're going to have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

They maybe weren't born evil but they sure are now, they've been dealt a shit hand in life which has made them evil. I don't know if its possible to undo that.

Now if you want to start a 'hang draw and quarter the parents' thread, I'll join in without (too much) persuasion 😈

Now if you want to start a 'hang draw and quarter the parents' thread, I'll join in without (too much) persuasion

+1

BoardinBob – Member

<other quote>No child of ten has a fully developed moral compass</other quote>
When I was ten, if I stayed out after the time I was supposed to be home I knew I was in trouble!

That's exactly the point – you'd be in trouble, but with your Dad. You wouldn't be thinking "I'd better get home now, or I'll be half-asleep at school tomorrow and won't be able to study". Your sense of moral responsability would be pretty limited – and if your Dad didn't care what time you got home, or the fights you got into, what would stop you?

+1 for kick the hell out of social services.

They will dodge doing anything if there's any difficulty in doing it (ie, being old to f-off by the man of the house). To the point where there are cases where women move in their new chap who's a known sex offender, kids will be in genuine danger and they won't do anything about it. Or a kid's been kicked out by their parents, but SS won't do anything because it's the weekend. They are absolutely unreal.

And whilst I'm at it, most of the services designed to engage with these sorts of parents fail. Surestart is a case in point – the govts own research says the impact it makes is unmeasurable, and it's because the people who engage with these services aren't the problem parents.

mogrim – well put. Nice to see there are some who can think on this forum. Thats exactly the point

Three pages and I still haven't a clue what you're all on about, a link in the first post would have been useful.

Edukator – theres a link from the thread entitled "Absolutely shocking, dispicable, and many other words not suitable…." elsewhere on the forum.

Sometimes my stance against the death penalty is somewhat stretched…

^^ MUDDYDWARF

It was definitely a sick and amoral attack, but these are kids, FFS. Are you honestly suggesting we strap them to a table and snuff out their lives?

What they should get is thorough psychiatric help – indefinite if necessary – which in 5, 10, 15 years or whatever, will allow them to lead a normal and fruitful life.

I doubt you'd argue that had these kids enjoyed the privileged upbringing any of us have, they wouldn't have attacked the other two boys.

It really annoys me that they will get more care and help and money spent on them than their victims will.

Thank you Mitch, that thread is now on page two or well beyond where I normally look.

As I can't think of anything to say that wouldn't be slagged of by the social worker types I won't comment.