being clever and erudite

Ninfan. You do know the thread is about Michael Gove?

Wasn’t he also pictured on a picket line when he was a journalist involved in strike action as reported in the Daily Mail!

I’m not sure I like Mr Gove Sr’s choice in shiny raincoats.

Wow, partial quotation out of context:

Under Gordon Brown and Ed Balls, schools have lost their principal
purpose – and been saddled with a host of supplementary roles.
As the flagship document of Ed’s first year in office – the Children’s Plan
– indicated, schools are less places of teaching and learning and more
community hubs from which a host of children’s services can be delivered.
In that sense education has indeed been eclipsed – and the renaming of the
Department is genuinely significant – we no longer have a single
department of state charged with encouraging learning, supporting
teaching and valuing education.

See what I mean about actually sitting down and reading what someone is on about? Mind you, I suppose your short attention span is to be expected, Its par for the course with the standard of education being delivered nowadays Grum 😉

of course zulu knows what the thread is about why do you think he is pressing folks buttons ?

So, he’s trying to privatise education. Is that so different to privatising BT, British Gas, British rail, the Post Office etc. ?

obviously yes it is very different i am surprised you need to ask.

even the pavement hates him

I’ve always thought pavements were pretty great but after watching that I love them that little bit more

Zulu self-pwning again. It’s like the good old days. 😀

I need to ask because I don’t understand.
If an organisation has a target, whether it’s 90% next day delivery for 1st class letters, 90% punctuality for trains or 90% exam pass rate for children, then I don’t see how inviting tenders from private bidders to replace state control is significantly different for one “industry” over another.

I’m not saying I’m in favour of privatisation, I just don’t see why if a private company can buy some trucks, rent a yard and hire some staff to run rubbish collection for the local council, why is it so different to buy some books, rent a building and hire some staff to run a school ?

Educating a child isn’t the same as posting a letter. HTH

EDIT : Since you have completely edited your post mine now makes no sense.

So let’s try again. Educating a child isn’t the same as getting your bin emptied.

Posting a letter is different to driving a train.

Edit;
I didn’t edit my post, I added another one which cross posted with yours, as did my next one.
I’ll pause a bit now to allow everyone, including myself, to catch up.

Yeah I don’t think you’re going to get your head round this one.

I just don’t see why if a private company can buy some trucks, rent a yard and hire some staff to run rubbish collection for the local council, why is it so different to buy some books, rent a building and hire some staff to run a school ?

Because delivering education isn’t as easily quantifiable as delivering letters or collecting rubish.

edit: I am well behind the discussion.

Ninfan

Why did he knight the head of a local federation of schools for doing all the things he claims to hate. Almost all the dilution and resit culture I see is in his academies.

Last week I sat down with about 10 students with a gcse B grade in maths. Only 2 had done the gcse at the end of year 11. The rest had sat it at the end of Y10 and then sat around doing no maths for a year. They are now trying to study physics A-level. Why does he bother with rhetoric if he can’t deliver. He could and should have stopped that practice the day he got the job.

I don’t see how inviting tenders from private bidders to replace state control is significantly different for one “industry” over another.

ask a tory about having a private army

HTH.

One attempt at a serious answer
the argument is that private organisations primary goal is to make profit for their shareholders where as the primary goal of education is to educate.
Private provision is more likely , especially as they dont have to follow the same rules * as state controlled schools, to result in a less uniform standardised education system [ as we get with say trains ]
The delivery would be more erratic and a lost education is far worse than a lost letter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24360100

todays most recent example as “free ” schools are one of his ideas and the start of “privatisation”

Woow there, Gove now decides who is knighted?

the argument is that private organisations primary goal is to make profit for their shareholders where as the primary goal of education is to educate.

Don’t the rail companies get fined for every cancelled or late train ?
Perhaps school companies could get fined for every expulsion or exam failure.

I know it probably appears that I am arguing in favour of privatisation.
I’m not, I’m just trying to understand why education is a special case.

Care for the elderly is largely privatised.
Someone; relatives, the council, or the person themselves, pays a set amount per month to the care home owner for the elderly person’s care, with very little monitoring of that care.
Why is that situation so widely accepted, when a similar situation of the council paying a set amount per month for a child’s education, which is constantly and closely monitored, so unacceptable ?

Woow there, Gove now decides who is knighted?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19407451

Government departments also put forward candidates.

So firstly we can assume that his department would be nominate people and would approve that list.

Had he at any point said. I’m disappointed that ______ head of blank _______ Federation has created 2 Academies where in their first year no students did more than 2 gcses then he probably wouldn’t have been knighted

Perhaps school companies could get fined for every expulsion or exam failure.

Unfortunately that is a ruined life in the pursuit of profit failed by incompetence…which is worse a late train or a **** up education Graham?

I’m just trying to understand why education is a special case.

The education of the citizens, its health and its defence are probably the three primary goals of a state. it easier to influence a government than a company who we dont vote for.

Care for the elderly is largely privatised.

I am not sure it was ever in state control tbh but they also tend to be adults who can make informed choices or just move if it is crap – you cannot do this with schools/education.

with very little monitoring of that care.

That not true there is tons of monitoring from the care standards, the customers family and social workers to the local council.

Why is that situation so widely accepted, when a similar situation of the council paying a set amount per month for a child’s education, which is constantly and closely monitored, so unacceptable ?

That is what we do and we do it in the state . The “free schools” are the ones who have more freedom and this tends to lead to a less standarised approach with erratic results – you did read the link I assume seeing as you are so keen to learn?
Also a company could just stop delivering and who would be held to account? At least with state education heads would roll.
Even america has state schools – i am not aware of any country having only private education nor am I aware of private education ever being provided for the masses without the state funding it,legislating for it and delivering it.
I am not aware of anyone arguing for it or seriously proposing it – that should help you realise it is a really bad idea

I read the link and the problem seemed to be more about religious extremism, and a known problem being allowed to continue by those who’s job it was to monitor the school, than whether the teachers were paid by the council or a private company.

What if that school’s funding had been dependent on getting at least average exam results for all its pupils ?
Would they still have been so keen to push all the girls to the back of the class room ?

aaahhh michael gove I cant quite say what it is about him that particularly upsets me

one of his first acts in the job was to try and cut the budget for school sports in the middle of the worst ever obesity crisis
that was a bad sign but it got much worse
his bizarre and pointless king james bible vanity project was another red flag
he has forced the nulabour accademy project upon the entire country and seems to tevel in alienating the people he most needs on side- the teachers

another major issue I have is his love of free schools, winding back centuries of progress allowing religion, bigotry and ignorance back into education

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/02/derby-muslim-faith-school-ofsted-inspection

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-return-of-section-28-schools-and-academies-practising-homophobic-policy-that-was-outlawed-under-tony-blair-8775249.html

I read the link and the problem seemed to be more about religious extremism, and a known problem being allowed to continue by those who’s job it was to monitor the school, than whether the teachers were paid by the council or a private company.

I think the point is this would only happen with a private company/non state control unless you can prove otherwise

your analysis of the causes is also at odds with reality

Ofsted’s findings were so damning that the acting head of Al-Madinah, in Derby, had little choice but to shut it down immediately.

You may also wish to read the handy explanation on free schools on that link as well

I am oot as i just dont believe anyone can be this “confused” and in need of answers. TBH you are either trolling or you are just going to struggle

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100221432/you-show-me-your-education-policy-and-ill-show-you-mine-michael-gove-steals-diane-abbott-away-from-ed/

You’re trying to understand why education is different from delivering a letter, emptying a bin, or driving a train?

I’m going to go out on a limb here and have a wild punt. You don’t have kids, do you?

To quote the greatest poet philosopher of our age ‘I believe the children are the future….’

I doubt that’s ever been said about bins or letters, though in the nineteenth century it admittedly could have been said about the train

Do we have examples of world class education in the UK?

Eton! Do I win a prize?

IIRC its a teeny weeny bit better funded than the state sector and off course they select their pupils on ability. You would need to try really hard to not get better outcomes with all those advantages.

Have they decided they want to enter the state market or are they sick of being told they dont do enough to help the state sector?
here is ofsted head telling them off today…its like they have realised there is no money in doing this and their corporate responsibility extends as far as your wallet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24367150

No that’s too exclusive!!! But funny….

Any more?

I rather like him
I think he’s just a liitle misrepresented and an easy target for pinko lefty hand wringing whinge bags. And he has a certain sexiness about him as well, maybe a lot of it is just jealousy?

binners – Member
Eton! Do I win a prize?

#SecondRateSloughComprehensive

😉

Slough Grammar – be fair Flashy!

as a guy setting out to destroy education hes doing a damn poor job he s just overseen the rebuilding of every single secondary school in rochdale where the average is 35% of kids with 5 a-c passes whilst telling the toffs at the grammar s chools to pay for thier own building..

Nah, they let almost anyone in!

(Turned them down myself, no rugby, see?)

Kids in Rochdale can now write?!!!! No good will ever come of this!! You mark my words!!!

…you are either trolling…

The standard STW reply to anyone who asks anything more complicated than “What tyres for.. ?”

And comparing the physical act of delivering a letter with educating a child doesn’t really advance the argument much either.

No, I haven’t got any children, although I am sort of partly responsible for the upbringing of Mrs MTG’s.
There seems to be a common theme in those links critical of free schools of religion.
If there was a “faith” school opening nearby, I’d want nothing to do with it.
If a group of local parents were opening a free school with the best interest of the kids at heart, I’d probably volunteer as an assistant metalwork or PE teacher if they’d have me.

The standard STW reply to anyone who asks anything more complicated than “What tyres for.. ?”

No that is the standard reply of the protesting troll.

And comparing the physical act of delivering a letter with educating a child doesn’t really advance the argument much either.

well you were the one who asked how it was any different and amazingly people answered you using your examples 🙄
Respectfully troll or idiot take your pick.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/michael-gove-why-him-in-particular/page/2#post-5387594
I need to ask because I don’t understand.
If an organisation has a target, whether it’s 90% next day delivery for 1st class letters, 90% punctuality for trains or 90% exam pass rate for children, then I don’t see how inviting tenders from private bidders to replace state control is significantly different for one “industry” over another.

totalshell – Member

as a guy setting out to destroy education hes doing a damn poor job he s just overseen the rebuilding of every single secondary school in rochdale

Surely school building and renovation is council’s work?

Junkyard, now it’s you who is deliberately misunderstanding a question, a form of trolling.

Surely you must realise there is a difference in seeing the similarities between the principles of two different public services being provided by private contractors, and the physical act of carrying out those services.

Winning a government contract to deliver letters or drive trains is, in principle, very similar, even if a train looks nothing like a letter.

Pre-school children, the elderly and the disabled are frequently cared for by publicly funded private contractors.
Why are those who are so opposed to privatised education not also advocating nationalisation of those three ?

Yes and a meat eater is just like a vegan in that they both eat . Dont talk to me about the fact they eat different things when explaining how they are different.
Forgive me for actually bothering to respond to you as if you were actually confused and wanted answers trolling I guarantee I wont do it ever again