Viewing 39 posts - 121 through 159 (of 159 total)
  • MEP Elections, have you voted?
  • AD
    Full Member

    Remainer, work in manufacturing, got kids who I want to grow up in a tolerant society, pro NHS and not a fascist.

    LD

    I am Harry_the_Spider…

    RustySpanner
    Full Member

    I was a Corbyn supporter and Labour member.

    I was prepared to give him a chance.
    I still think the last manifesto was superb.

    How was he supposed to jump?

    Pro Brexit and he alienates the wet, softy, Binneresque wing of the party who, let’s face it, hated him anyway.
    Pro remain and the working class demi-gammon turn to Funny Uncle Nigel.

    Shame.

    As a lefty remainer I have no one left to vote for.

    I was looking forward to a quiet old age. Looks like I’ll be back on the streets protesting against the Brown Shorts and getting funny looks from the neighbours…..

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Well this was an election with no winners, other than apathy.

    Less than 15% of the electorate felt the need to stroll down to polling stations and cast a vote for a remain in the EU party. Presumably the other 85% couldn’t give a monkeys.

    The Tories achieved their worse national election result in 185 years.

    The Labour Party achieved their worse EU election result ever, although surprisingly only 1% less than they managed under Gordon Brown.

    ChangeUK have seen their dreams of shaking up British politics shattered after receiving less than 3% of the vote.

    UKIP which having now gone full-blown racist, misogynist, and islamophobic, a position that would have likely seen them top the polls in several EU countries, didn’t do much better on just over 3% of the vote.

    Yaxley-Lennon, who would probably have been seen as a national hero in Austria, Hungary, and Italy, managed a tad over 2%

    Still, among all the disastrous election results there appears to be a couple of happy people.

    Vince Cable because his party received 1 in 5 of the votes of the small minority that could be bothered to vote, quite an improvement for a party that only 2 years ago most people wouldn’t touch with a bargepole.

    And happy smiling Nigel Farage, because his party won an election for a parliament that he doesn’t want to be a member of. Although the last time his party won the EU election all the UKIP MEPs resigned one by one, so that smile might not last. Still, this time he’s starting with 5 more MEPs so he might have better luck.

    For me the cause for celebration is how the UK bucks the European trend. Exactly 10 years ago in the EU elections the BNP in the UK received almost one million votes, 6.3% of the vote.

    Weirdly enough, also 10 years ago, the National Front in France received exactly the same share of the vote – 6.3%

    Yesterday the renamed NF in France won the EU election, whilst in the UK the BNP has disappeared from British politics – they can’t even manage to win a ward council seat anywhere in the country.

    That really is a cause for celebration. And no, before someone says it, the Brexit Party is not the equivalent of the BNP. The British people have firmly rejected fascism, bigotry, and islamophobia, as Thursday’s results prove. In stark contrast with much of Europe.

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    Cougar
    Full Member

    Less than 15% of the electorate felt the need to stroll down to polling stations and cast a vote for a remain in the EU party. Presumably the other 85% couldn’t give a monkeys.

    Can’t help but wonder where all those people who don’t want to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats were.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    That really is a cause for celebration.

    Except you’re comparing chalk and cheese, Ernie. Have a look at current RN policy and compare it with BNP policy. Rien à voir.

    And you’re conveniently forgetting that Farrage (Brexit) who is every bit as extreme as Le Pen senior just scored more than Le Pen fille.

    Care to link the Brexit party policy policy that convinces you it’s not in fact worse than the BNP. Please, Ernie, link it and prove me wrong. It’s so **** evil they daren’t print it.

    Edit, could you link your source for FN results, they got over 10% way back when in almost any election the fielded candiadates.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Having done a bit of fact checking you’ve done some serious cherry picking Ernie. My memory served me well, way back in 1984 Le Pen senior already scored 11%. It was when Marine came along and modified the policies and dialogue to attract voters from both extreme right and left where they join on the far side of the circle that the results jumped to their current levels of around 25% if you average Euro, local and national elections.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_national_(parti_fran%C3%A7ais)

    kerley
    Free Member

    That really is a cause for celebration. And no, before someone says it, the Brexit Party is not the equivalent of the BNP. The British people have firmly rejected fascism, bigotry, and islamophobia, as Thursday’s results prove. In stark contrast with much of Europe.

    Was thinking the same but as Educator points out we don’t actually know what the Brexit party stands for but can guess as Farage is leader. People voting for the Brexit party are making up their own minds of what is stands for and as many of them would have been UKIP that probably isn’t much difference from the rest of the EU far right parties.

    Drac
    Full Member

    Was thinking the same but as Educator points out we don’t actually know what the Brexit party stands for but can guess as Farage is leader.

    Simple. It boosts Farage egotistical personality while continuing to make him money.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    you’ve done some serious cherry picking Ernie

    LOL and you accuse me of “cherry picking”!

    What’s the point of linking to a French wikipedia page, was it in the hope that most people wouldn’t be able to read it? Why don’t you write your posts in French Edukator – if it’s the lingua franca for STW?

    Here is a link to an English wikipedia page :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rally_(France)#European_Parliament

    You’ll see :

    2009 Jean-Marie Le Pen EURONAT 1,091,691 6.3%

    6.3% is EXACTLY the same percentage as the BNP received in the UK in that election.

    You might say there is no comparisons between the BNP and the French NF but there certainly is. Jean-Marie Le Pen is a convicted racist thug who has dismissed the mass murder of millions of Jews as a mere “detail of history”.

    Sure, since the NF have ditched Jean-Marie Le Penn they have tried to portray themselves as a more respectable racist bigoted islamophobic party, and that has undoubtedly won them more votes.

    But here in the UK Yaxley-Lennon also tried to do exactly the same thing distancing himself from his thuggery past and links with the violent islamophobic EDL. However it got him nowhere – the British people saw straight through the racist bigot.

    Of course the bar is placed differently in France, even the so-called moderates of the centre party are bigots. Only a couple of months ago government ministers, among others, successfully put pressure on Decathalon France to withdraw the sale of “sports hijabs”, something which achieved nothing other than make Muslim girls less likely to participate in sport, or dress as they wish. But it did satisfy there bigotted hatred of Islam.

    I can’t imagine a similar situation ever occuring in Britian, even with a Tory government. The political climate in France, and much of Europe, makes the French NF seem not too extreme. But they are definitely extremist in the context of the UK.

    In Italy, Austria, and Hungary, there are political parties IN GOVERNMENT that are willing to see desperate people fleeing wars, created by Europeans, drown at sea, it is both disgusting and frightening. It seems that Britian alone stands against the rising tide of fascism across Europe, once again.

    Apologies for any spilling misstakes, spellcheck isn’t working.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Here’s a choice example of what is happening in Europe :

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-newspaper-how-to-spot-a-jew-antisemitism-front-page-tylko-polska-a8822646.html

    Can you imagine a leading British paper having that on their front page?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Comparing not quite the worst ever FN result when le Pen senior was largely discredited (and rightly for reasons you mention) with a good BNP result is most definitely cherry picking, Ernie.

    As for the rest of your xenophobic, anti-French bollocks “bigotted hatred of Islam”. You have a bigotted hatred of the French. I call hypocrit.

    Britain if you remember started the war that resulted in the refugee crisis and then refused to take any refugees.

    Edit: lest you forget:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5373525/Tony-Blair-believed-God-wanted-him-to-go-to-war-to-fight-evil-claims-his-mentor.html

    Independant ewspaper headlines are one thing, killing over 100 000 in a religious crusade led by a head of state quite another. I don’t judge the UK on Daily Mail headlines.

    athgray
    Free Member

    ernielynch
    Can you imagine a leading British paper having that on their front page?

    A quick check describes the publication in question as a low circulation right wing weekly. Why are you comparing this to a leading British paper?

    chewkw
    Free Member

    MEP elections is now over. Bring on the GE!

    In the meantime in the far east All American companies will soon (already started) be divesting out of China. The rest of the Western companies will follow in the near future.

    The start of two world system begins …

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    As for the rest of your xenophobic, anti-French bollocks “bigotted hatred of Islam”. You have a bigotted hatred of the French. I call hypocrit.

    LOL! I’m a French born national! I even served in the French armed forces! (well I was conscripted actually) But none of that makes me blind to the rise of bigotry and islamophobia in France, why would it?

    And btw get your facts right, it wasn’t the “the worst ever FN result”, that was 10 years earlier in 1999. Although it’s totally irrelevant to the point I’m making. Which is that in 2009 both the BNP in Britain and the NF in France recieve 6.3% of the vote. Today the French NF won this week’s election and the BNP can’t even win a ward council seat – even though it only requires a handful of votes.

    As for your previous comment “Care to link the Brexit party policy policy that convinces you it’s not in fact worse than the BNP” because I couldn’t arsed, since you’ve got me to respond again……..you must be the only person on here who doesn’t know why Nigel Farage, and a few others, left UKIP and formed another party……..”worse than the BNP” LOL!

    The British people have passed their judgement on UKIP’s metamorphosis into the new BNP, and it was very harsh indeed – 3% of the vote. Even in the recent local elections when Leavers didn’t have the Brexit Party to vote for, UKIP lost 80% of their councillors.

    The British people should be proud of having the most multicultural least racist country in Europe. The French should be ashamed, although to be fair there are worst countries in Europe.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    A quick check describes the publication in question as a low circulation right wing weekly. Why are you comparing this to a leading British paper?

    Because it’s apparently sold in the Polish parliament, it’s not a fringe paper sold on street corners.

    Although its circulation figure are actually irrelevant, you wouldn’t see ‘how to spot a Jew’ on the front page of even a low ciculation British paper, because quite simply they would be prosecuted. And quite right too. Only in Poland could that happen, and a few other countries.

    But hey, I know my take on the situation doesn’t chime with the narrative on here that British electorate are both incredibly stupid and racist, so you carrying on picking holes wherever you can.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I’m aware of why Farrage quit UKIP, for the same reason as Marine Le Pen fell out with and distanced herself from Le Pen senior. They both know anti-semites and anti-muslims can’t win elections and are likely to get arrested. Populists need popular support. Once in power they do what the hell they want.

    And yes, I regard Farrage as having more right wing policies than the the BNP. Check out BNP policy on health (totally socialist) and Farrage (insurance and privatisation).

    Consider for an instant what Farrage wil do on getting a majority in the house. An instant Brexit – no more ECJ, the ability to revoke the laws he doesn’t like and make new ones. Once in power he can stop playing nicely and do just what he wants.

    athgray
    Free Member

    Because it’s apparently sold in the Polish parliament, it’s not a fringe paper sold on street corners.

    I dont disagree with the essence of your argument regarding racism in European countries, just trying to keep you honest with regards to how you use your sources.
    The article you link seems to show politicians in Poland are horrified that this happened, so hopefully this is not a regular occurrence.
    You are right the the headline would not appear here, however I have never visited the Polish Parliament, but would bet that the papers it sells will be no different to those on street corners there.
    Its circulation is relevant in determining the extent of the problem of racism in Poland.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    The British people should be proud of having the most multicultural least racist country in Europe.

    That’s a blatant lie if Metro is to be believed.

    Here’s the most racist countries in Europe (and we’re not actually that bad)

    chewkw
    Free Member

    … Farrage (insurance and privatisation).

    Privatisation … look at EU countries from the guardian newspaper as sample.

    EU countries privatisation

    The creeping privatisation of EU health care …

    🤣

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The British people should be proud of having the most multicultural least racist country in Europe.

    That’s a blatant lie if Metro is to be believed.

    Nah, other comparable multicultral countries in Europe such as Italy, Germany, France, Austria, etc, are more racist than the UK.

    Don’t believe everything you read in the Metro. The best gauge of how racist a country is how people vote – in the privacy of your own polling booth you can be as racist as you like.

    Fascists and neo-nazis have been trying to get a foothold in British politics since the 1930s, they have never succeeded. They’ve had more success in other European countries. And today Britian is the least racist it’s ever been. It’s less racist than it was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.

    There aren’t too many things that Britian can still be proud of, tolerance is one of them.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    The best gauge of how racist a country is how people vote

    Brexit party, thirty something percent. Farrage

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/nigel-farage-s-vile-anti-immigration-poster-criticised-1.2690915 and to quote George Osbourne

    Farrage is 1930s Germany according to George Osbourne and many others.

    There aren’t too many things that Britian can still be proud of, tolerance is one of them.

    You’re just trolling now, Ernie.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales

    and compare those numbers with Holland taking into account population of course ( Holland is another multicultural society in which the multicultural model is being challenged so comparable).

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    You’re just trolling now, Ernie.

    Isn’t the correct response to ignore a troll?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Chewkw, yes. With you I’m selective, Ernie. On dirait que le service nationale t’as marqué à vie. Je parie qu’un parent n’était pas près à renoncer à la nationalité française pour t’éviter l’épreuve. Alors ?

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    On dirait que le service nationale t’as marqué à vie. Je parie qu’un parent n’était pas près à renoncer à la nationalité française pour t’éviter l’épreuve. Alors ?

    In France it was military service, not national service – as in Britain where it could be completed working for a government department other than the military. You should know that, I take it that you didn’t do yours?

    Renouncing my French nationality was not an option as it was the only nationality that I had, and it still is. I am however for all intents and purposes British, and one day I will probably swallow my pride and swear allegiance to Elizabeth II and her successors, although I don’t see why naturalized Brits can’t be republicans. Although I am present in the same boat, so to speak, as some of the Windrush generation – like them I didn’t know I was suppose to apply for permanent UK residency years ago. Not a problem whilst the UK remains in the EU. I am btw a strong leave supporter – I despise the EU.

    Besides, although it was truly crap in so many ways I have absolutely no regrets about doing my military service. It didn’t leave a negative mark as you suggest. I was happy to do my bit for the Glory of France, especially as it didn’t involve killing anyone. Furthermore because I completed my military service I was afterwards prioritised into a French government training college, something which I am very grateful for and would never have had the opportunity to do in the UK.

    Although I no longer consider myself French, ie, I wouldn’t be able hold a conservation in French anymore, despite having reached the rank of corporal during my military service and going to college in France, as it’s been decades since I’ve spoken it, I do still feel an emotional attachment to France, which is one of the reasons I get so pissed off with the rise of the far right and islamophobia. I’ve had relatives who fought against that crap.

    I can’t get my head round the thought that anyone who lives in a country that suffered under nazi occuption, and all its horrors, can vote for the far right. And not just France, Greece, Italy, etc. And Poland? Poland lost 20% of its population under nazi occupation, 6 million, 6 **** million, more than half of them Jews. And today in Poland they have newspaper articles such as “how to spot a Jew”? FFS

    Edukator
    Free Member

    And there was me hoping you’d pick me up on a homophone rather than using your own words, Ernie.

    I’d like to feel some empathy but can only say that someone with only French nationality supporting leave is properly masochistic. You really aren’t for all internts and purposes British until you get a passport and the Brexiteers will make you very aware of that.

    I’m in exactly the opposite situation, I was born in Brimingham but I’ve lived in France for over thirty years. Within a few years I had a business, properties, Madame had qualifications and a good job, junior was born here. I applied for nationality and went to a very nice ceremony with people for all sorts of places, the only disappointment being not getting to sing the Marseillaise.

    When the Net came along I though I’d make the most of my duality and keep my English up to scratch on forums, then just one forum, this place. It’s the best of the Britain I liked. Things move on, I’ve turned left while Britain has turned right and our courses have diverged. I feel Foreign in Britian but this place helps enormously with keeping my finger on the pulse.

    I’ve benefitted greatly from freedom of movement, junior too, currently studying and working in Germany. I fully support the European project whilst recognising its complexity and failings. The alternative of no EU is economically suicidal and politically dangerous IMO. Quite apart from the loss of personal freedoms.

    So in real life we would soon give each other a wide berth but on here we’re still talking after all these years. mMkes you think, eh !

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The alternative of no EU is economically suicidal and politically dangerous IMO.

    And don’t forget war. Just Britian leaving the EU could result in Europe descending into war. According to former British Prime Minister David Cameron

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/08/cameron-brexit-will-increase-risk-of-europe-descending-into-war/

    The overriding characteristic of the referendum campaign was that both sides talked shite.

    Although in my opinion the result was correct.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I think the EU has already prevented war. We don’t have a parallel world to compare with but I think that Putin would have been even more agressive were it not for having an adversary the size of the EU to kepp him in check. Do you really think the wall would have come down as easily and the eastern European countires been left to westernise without the Eastern partnership? Would sanctions have been imposed? No chance. Would the Ukraine have been completely annexed as opposed to pratially? Probably.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    The overriding characteristic of the referendum campaign was that both sides talked shite.

    Sorry but this is shite.
    On the one hand we have future predictions. Normally done as a range from best case to worse case. Which is primarily what the remain campaign was guilty of.Choosing the worse case predictions.
    On the other hand we have lying about what is happening now. Which is what the brexiteers were repeatedly guilty of (as well as also selecting best case predictions0.

    Also, if you bother to read what Cameron actually wrote you will be reminded why newspaper headlines, as a rule, should be ignored.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Sorry but this is shite.
    On the one hand we have future predictions. Normally done as a range from best case to worse case. Which is primarily what the remain campaign was guilty of.

    Nah, if you make a prediction and it turns out to be a shite prediction it’s still shite. Even if you want to claim that it was just an honest mistake. Although I see it more as a politically motivated “honest mistake”

    As I said, both sides have repeatedly talked shite, one side didn’t have a monopoly. And in the case of pro-Euro shite that goes way back. Before joining the EEC the europhiles claimed that joining would result in unemployment falling as it would lead to tens of thousands of extra jobs. It was almost certainly the single biggest thing which swayed people to support joining EEC.

    What actually happened was that unemployment went through the roof after joining. And there it stayed, above the pre-EEC level, for 45 years. Until ironically this year, 3 years after Britain voted to leave, it has now come down for the first time to its the 1974 level.

    And of course the present unemployment level brings me to more immediate shite. One month before the referendum the pro-EU British government claimed that a vote to leave, never mind actually leaving, “would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy”.

    Apparently the economy would be tipped into a year-long recession, with at least 500,000 jobs lost and GDP around 3.6% lower, following a vote to leave. I’m sure I don’t need point out that turned out to be shite too.

    The reality is that you can produce forecasts to say whatever suits your political agenda. For example, remember the EU, well Germany actually, telling Greece that austerity, austerity, austerity, was the only solution? Well here’s a surprise:

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-gdp/higher-state-spending-helps-german-economy-avoid-recession-in-fourth-quarter-idUKKCN1QB0N5

    And here’s how compassionate the EU is towards people on their knees :

    Germany earned €2.9 billion from Greece’s debt crisis

    I could also mention the politically motivated bollocks said by a Treasury concerning UK austerity and budgetary deficit, and I might if you want, but to get back to my original point concerning Cameron’s melodramatic shite about the risk of war in Europe if Britain voted to leave in June 2016. I am indeed aware of what he actually said. He said :

    “The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.”

    And :

    “From Caesar’s legions to the wars of the Spanish Succession, from the Napoleonic Wars to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

    The moments of which we are rightly most proud in our national story include pivotal moments in European history. Blenheim. Trafalgar. Waterloo. Our country’s heroism in the Great War.”

    He also went on to evoke the memories of Winston Churchill and Britain’s “lone stand” against Nazi Germany in 1940.

    It is the sort of mind-numbingly pathetic rhetoric that I expect from Nigel Farage. Shite in other words.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    ernielynch

    Member

    Nah, if you make a prediction and it turns out to be a shite prediction it’s still shite.

    And you think this prediction- that britain leaving the EU increases the risk of war in Europe- has turned out to be shite?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    What actually happened was that unemployment went through the roof after joining.

    The OPEC crisis and Thatcherism were not predicted before we joined the EEC… I’m not sure failing to join would have inoculated the UK against the unemployment caused by either.

    Ernie, what year did you begin working in the UK?

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    You mean the OPEC crises of 1973 wasn’t predicted in 1974?

    And you’re right, the EEC/EU didn’t protect us from Thatcherism. I keep telling the europhiles that but they won’t listen, as they repeat the “worker’s rights” mantra. She was of course a firm remainer, a bit like you kelvin.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    We joined the EEC before the OPEC crisis hit, in the same year.

    Thatcherism (deliberately) raised unemployment… which has nothing to do with the UK joining the EEC.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Sorry I meant to say 1975, the year of the referendum. My mistake.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    “worker’s rights” mantra

    The UK adopting the social chapter post dates Thatcher, no? In fact, the lessons learned from what she did was arguably a driving force behind its creation.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Thatcherism (deliberately) raised unemployment… which has nothing to do with the UK joining the EEC.

    Which of course makes my point. The answer is British government policy, not the EU. The EU is simply concerned that one country doesn’t have an unfair competitive advantage over others. It couldn’t give a monkeys how unfair a government is towards its citizens. The UK didn’t have to ask permission from the EU when it decided that someone with less than 2 years employment could legally be unfairly dismissed.

    Tony Blair famously boasted “we will still have the most restrictive union laws in the Western world”, he was actually proud of that. Being a member of the EU didn’t stop the most restrictive union laws in the Western world.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    It may be a boast, but it isn’t true, is it?

    It couldn’t give a monkeys how unfair a government is towards its citizens.

    Why doesn’t it allow a free for all then, resulting in a race to bottom across the EU states and its closest trading partners?

    There are reasons why minimum standards for workers rights need to be agreed between multiple countries (the EU spreads this to nonEU countries when signing trade arrangements as well as internally) and you can pretend all you like not to understand why that is.

    And how about freedom of movement of workers?

    When did you start working in the UK?

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    OK I’m going to leave it now. What started off as my take on the EU election results has now become a straight for or against the EU argument. It’s completely off-topic and there is already a thread for that.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Junker’s replacement currently being decided. Hopefully the Danish lady or Dutch bloke. I hope Macron can get the socialists on board.

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