Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 215 total)
  • Maybe I’m just being a bit sensitive but a poppy on a weapon? Isn’t that a bit..
  • Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    I don’t wear a poppy anymore – largely because I got tired of people having a go at others who didn’t wear one. The fact the poppy is only for British and Commonwealth troops also rankles. To my mind it has been hijacked somewhat by the spirit of war-mongery that has infected British politics since 2001.

    As someone else mentioned they did, I have very often sat by a village or town war memorial and remembered the loss of so many lives. It is horrific to think of the waste. One of my more recent visits was to the German cemetery in Cannock. Just as moving…

    The key phrase in rememberence for me is “Lest we forget.” I have not forgotten. I remember most the hatred for war and loss of life that most veterans I met from two world wars expressed.

    And no OP, I don’t think you are wrong.

    Premier Icon slackalice
    Subscriber

    Eloquently put lemonysam.

    Respect, thankfulness and gratitude. Whether one chooses to publicly show or not.

    As for the OP, so long as the intent behind it was good, I have no issue with it. I have more issue with our political and corporate elite, wearing poppies and placing wreaths, who clearly profit from warmongering. Hypocrisy, pure and utter hypocrisy.

    hora
    Member

    I disagree with poppies on a warplane. (To me) its to symbolise those lost to war, who didn’t have a choice. The futility but in a modern sense those that join to defend but do not have a pick of what wars they may go on to serve in.

    It’s loosing its message when it’s put on a pointy-pain thing.

    Junkyard
    Member

    The key phrase in rememberence for me is “Lest we forget.” I have not forgotten. I remember most the hatred for war and loss of life that most veterans I met from two world wars expressed.

    THis go see the graveyards of WW1 and just look at the size and number there and then realise it was one days battle

    Waris generally just a waste of life and we rarely engage in a “noble war”

    Can’t understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunately

    If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino

    (Having said that not a fan of the poppy on the jet – that is a bit like a chocolate topping)

    I think Woppit had it early on.

    Spin
    Member

    Can’t understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst

    The obvious answer is because it isn’t that simple.

    In its simplest form it is a chance to remember the british and commonwealth service men and women who have died. Many take it in that light an that seems like a fair thing to do.

    But then it gets complicated.

    What about civilians? And are we still so jingoistic that we can’t spare a thought for enemy soldiers in the same situation?

    Then sadly the rhetoric of war starts to creep in from some quarters with words and phrases like ‘heroes’ and ‘fought to keep us free’ which many find difficult to swallow.

    Maybe it’s time to rethink how we approach the act of remembrance as a nation?

    craigxxl
    Member

    No it is simple. It’s a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice, no one is going to stop you. The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors.
    Turn up and pay your respects with the others. Your’s may be to the military dead on one sides, all sides, their civilian support, the innocent victims of war both human, animal and environmental. No one can stop you.

    Spin
    Member

    No it is simple. It’s a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice,

    You can choose to approach it that way if you wish and I agree with you. However, it isn’t simple as it is inextricably linked with the Royal British Legion whose focus is on British service men and women as is the focus of the vast majority of official events.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Team Hurtmore wrote:

    Can’t understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunately

    Interesting observation because the “event” itself seems to be growing, starting earlier, more focus, more lead-up. Mind you, the same was being said about halloween last week and there’s an annual moan about Christmas, Easter and now Mothers/Fathers/pick-a-relative-of-your-choice day. Maybe it’s just that we’re all so “connected” these days that we’re all seeing more things happening.

    It does seem that there would be an understandable upswell in the size of armistice remembrance as we go through the centenary of WW1. I guess we can expect that to continue until 2018.

    craigxxl
    Member

    You can choose to approach it that way if you wish and I agree with you. However, it isn’t simple as it is inextricably linked with the Royal British Legion whose focus is on British service men and women as is the focus of the vast majority of official events.

    Yes the red poppy is the symbol of the RBL and the majority is therefore military. There has been an increase in the remembrance of others too, just watch the Whitehall Parade to see. The more people who attend these remembrance parades and show their respects to others the less military dominated it will become and people will become to understand that war effects all.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    mattsccm – Member
    Can’t think of any group more entitled to remember than the military.

    The families.

    Which is why I wear a poppy.

    Being older than most people here I have a long list of granduncles and family killed in WW1 and of my parent’s generation in WW2. Both G/fathers destroyed by WW1 – one from side effects from gassing several years after, the other from what’s now PTSD.

    I remember both the dead, the maimed, and also the bastards who profited by sending them into hell.

    lemonysam
    Member

    Can’t understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunately

    That “angst” is people thinking about the meaning of the poppy, thinking about the lives it represents and coming to their own conclusions about how they wish to remember them. If you think that unthinking acquiescence would be preferable then I think that’s rather a shame.

    chewkw
    Member

    I wore poppy for few years largely because my Jewish colleague wears one every year but he then asked me to do the same.

    Nowadays I wear one when I feel like or if I am in the mood of wearing one.

    Occasionally I kind of thought of the death but sometimes I thought all the dead got away too easily through death. Dying is easy it is living that is hard.

    No it is simple. It’s a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice, no one is going to stop you.

    Exactly,

    yes, it’s linked to the RBL. The earth’s round…..so what?

    TO THE MEMORY OF THE FALLEN AND THE FUTURE OF THE LIVING

    Your Royal British Legion poppy helps us to provide thousands of modern veterans, Service men, women and their families with vital advice and support. This year don’t just wear a poppy for the memory of the fallen, wear it for the future of the living.

    If that’s so offensive (?) ignore it, or give money to another charity that looks after other countries’ veterans. Ironically, you have the free choice to do just that….hmmm….

    That “angst” is people thinking about the meaning of the poppy, thinking about the lives it represents and coming to their own conclusions about how they wish to remember them.

    Exactly, that is the situation.

    If you think that unthinking acquiescence would be preferable then I think that’s rather a shame.

    Who is thinking that? The sheep?

    ninfan
    Member

    Hmm, lot of people here conflating remembrance with the poppy appeal.

    Not the same thing, never were, completley different origins with different purposes (the work of the RBL still unfortunately being of relevance today)

    Junkyard
    Member

    yes completely different expect the poppy is sold by the RBL and they get the money from it but yes apart fromt that not the same thing.

    The two have merged due to what the RBL has done so its not really surprising folk conflate the two – the money raised being used to help ex service personnel and their families to retrain and for various other reasons

    https://www.civvystreet.org/

    See if you can guess what logo they[RBL] use without clicking!

    Premier Icon slowoldgit
    Member

    ISTR that when father-in-law was terminally ill, the RBL were quick to offer help. He died with scars from Arnhem, mental and physical, that he never talked about. That’s the third reason, it too is harder to talk about.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors.

    If only that were true, we have been continually at war since the end of WW2, even today our defence minister is holding power point presentations to reluctant MP to get them to vote to drop bombs on people in Syria.

    Perhaps even by that Tornado with the pretty poppies on it….

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    ninfan – Member

    Hmm, lot of people here conflating remembrance with the poppy appeal.

    Yup- the thread’s about the poppy appeal, not about remembrance in general.

    grum – Member

    I’m not really talking about what the legion does with the money, I’m talking about what the poppy symbolises in the media/public consciousness.

    Some people get it wrong, I know, but it remains that the poppy appeal is not just about the world wars. In fact these days, it’s mostly about modern wars.

    ninfan
    Member

    See if you can guess what logo they[RBL] use without clicking!

    Err, thats my point – the Poppy appeal has always been run by the RBL group of charities, largely set up out of the failure of government to look after injured servicemen and the families of those lost, as relevant now as ever before.

    The act of remembrance is a national one that predates both the poppy appeal and the RBL

    grum
    Member

    THM – who do you think you are to dictate how people should feel about the poppy?

    The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors

    I’d argue the opposite. In our national media it has largely become a jingoistic patriotism competition in which we are made to feel guilty if we don’t ‘support our brave boys’ and by extension whatever possibly illegal/immoral military endeavour we are currently involved in. Just look at the fury directed at Jeremy Corbyn for not wearing one.

    I have also recently seen revisionist attempts by the right to ‘rebrand’ the First World War as a noble cause. It’s all part of the same propaganda.

    I might wear a white one if I can find it.

    yunki
    Member

    Radio 4 is quite interesting on the subject at the moment

    All sane people have considered that the remembrance service is too militaristic since the 1930s, and the poppy is a symbol of rememberance and of the associated militarism

    Grum, no idea what you are taking about. As I have said, there is no need for all the froth. People can do what they want. You can make you gesture of a white poppy if you want to – good luck to you, hope it makes you feel good.

    It’s a simple time of remembrance combined with an opportunity for the RBL to raise money for a good cause. Mark it as you see fit. As I said, go to Starbucks if you need some froth.

    As for the propaganda poppycock – we have become much, much more discerning and critical in how we look at history and the wars in particular. Less and less of a noble cause, more and more of a pitiful waste of lives. That’s a good thing.

    War is a horrible, horrible thing.

    ninfan
    Member

    a noble cause.

    Helping protect France and Belgium from invasion by Germany wasn’t a noble cause?

    Junkyard
    Member

    Gove would be proud of that simplistic notion of the causes of WW1 Ninfan

    no need for all the froth

    Is everyone who opposes your view frothing?
    Grum made his point calmly and rationally without ad homing /shooting the messenger. Perhaps you should give it a go and forth a little less yourself as you seem to be getting a little upset here.

    ninfan
    Member

    simplistic notion of the causes of WW1

    Ok, fine, maybe you could explain to me which of the ’causes’ of WW1 necessitated the invasion of France and Belgium by Germany?

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Pretty much WW1 was about Kaiser Bill feeling inferior and emasculated because of his withered arm and a need to prove himself more powerful than his British (Okay of German extraction, but you know what I mean.) cousins.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Ok, fine, maybe you could explain to me which of the ’causes’ of WW1 necessitated the invasion of France and Belgium by Germany?

    Would it not make more sense to explain [mis] leading questions first?

    Probably better you debate the great “withered arm” theory of WW1 with the informed poster above then explain WW2 in terms of the number of testicles of Hitler whilst ignoring facts

    Premier Icon Travis
    Subscriber

    TBH I’ve never really thought about the Poppy and it’s meaning until I read this post.
    I live in Qingdao, China, so buying isn’t an option.
    If I was in Beijing though, I can (Embassy is there, and they sell them (or used to))
    But, the points raised on this thread, reminded me of story sometime ago.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2010/nov/10/david-cameron-poppy-china-michael-white
    The Poppy, isn’t just for the British who died (maybe depending on your point of view)

    Spin
    Member

    Hmm, lot of people here conflating remembrance with the poppy appeal.

    It’s rather difficult not to as the two have become so intertwined. Which is one of the reasons we have disagreement over it.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Probably better you debate the great “withered arm” theory of WW1 with the informed poster above then explain WW2 in terms of the number of testicles of Hitler whilst ignoring facts

    Was being a little flippant Junky. No twisting of others knickers was intended. 🙁

    Whilst not being as informed as others on here in terms of the detailed causality of the First World War – I am a little more informed than my flippancy would indicate. As for the Second World War being caused by n-1 in Hitlers scrotum… 🙂 It’s satisfying if not compelling!

    grum
    Member

    You can make you gesture of a white poppy if you want to – good luck to you, hope it makes you feel good.

    Oh **** off you patronising ****.

    As I said, go to Starbucks if you need some froth.

    If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino

    Hilarious. So hilarious you made the same ‘joke’ twice.

    Why don’t you go and tell 91-year-old war veteran Harry Leslie Smith there’s no need for all his ‘frothing’?

    OVER THE LAST 10 years the sepia tone of November has become blood-soaked with paper poppies festooning the lapels of our politicians, newsreaders and business leaders. The most fortunate in our society have turned the solemnity of remembrance for fallen soldiers in ancient wars into a justification for our most recent armed conflicts.

    The American civil war’s General Sherman once said that “war is hell”, but unfortunately today’s politicians in Britain use past wars to bolster our flagging belief in national austerity or to compel us to surrender our rights as citizens, in the name of the public good.

    lemonysam
    Member

    Oh **** off you patronising ****.

    If you’re going to start replying to THM’s posts with that you’ll soon need a new asterisk key.

    copa
    Member

    As for the propaganda poppycock – we have become much, much more discerning and critical in how we look at history and the wars in particular. Less and less of a noble cause, more and more of a pitiful waste of lives. That’s a good thing.

    War is a horrible, horrible thing.

    Can’t see much sign of this.

    The poppyfest at this time of year does the exact opposite of what you say. It rebrands war as something heroic, noble and kind of spiritual.

    The language constantly used deliberately removes the brutal reality of war. People didn’t die, they ‘fell’ or were ‘lost’ or made the ‘ultimate sacrifice’.

    Any soldier who is injured in war is automatically a hero – even if they aren’t. They are idolised by the media and the establishment.

    It’s daft. It’s doing the complete opposite of what you claim.

    hugo
    Member

    I refuse as I really object to the #PoppyFascism thing which comes hand in hand with the whole thing.

    This is how I feel about it. The feeling that you are being disrespectful to something by choosing not to commemorate it doesn’t sit well. If I were campaigning against the military/war veterans/Britain in general, then that’s one thing, but not wearing a poppy is not wearing a poppy, not this.

    My family is Catholic Northern Irish and so I would have a perfectly good reason for not wearing one if socially forced to – eg news reader, sports person, etc.

    However, the reason I don’t wear one is because people DO feel socially compelled to. It’s gone too far, it’s gone against free choice, and it’s put me off.

    mefty
    Member

    The absolute human cost of war has massively decreased over the last half century, whilst this is of absolutely no comfort to those effected by it still, it does mean we as a race have learnt and continue to learn our lessons. The human cost of learning these lessons for us particularly but many other European nations, has been to our generations unimaginable. Remembrance is simply a recognition of the lessons learnt and an act of thanks to those who had the misfortune to have been taught them.

    grum
    Member

    Remembrance is simply a recognition of the lessons learnt and an act of thanks to those who had the misfortune to have been taught them.

    Except it’s not. That’s what it should be.

    The absolute human cost of war has massively decreased over the last half century, whilst this is of absolutely no comfort to those effected by it still, it does mean we as a race have learnt and continue to learn our lessons. The human cost of learning these lessons for us particularly but many other European nations, has been to our generations unimaginable. Remembrance is simply a recognition of the lessons learnt and an act of thanks to those who had the misfortune to have been taught them.

    Maybe for the people with the technological superiority, the rest are far less fortunate and unfortunately they are often on the receiving end of our ‘advancements’. In fact we have just refined what was started 75 odd years ago, theres very little difference in application between a drone and a V1.

    Homs, Berlin, what’s the difference really?

    However, the reason I don’t wear one is because people DO feel socially compelled to. It’s gone too far, it’s gone against free choice, and it’s put me off.

    You have exercised your free choice and chosen not to wear a poppy. Free choice lives on…Doesnt it?

    I walked passed poppy sellers every day without wearing a poppy this week. No one accosted me, no one abused me. They allowed me to exercise my own free choice too. So I donated to RBL but didn’t wear a poppy (actually because I forgot). There was no social pressure applied in any way. Ditto today, I am free to go to a service, go for a walk, ride my bike at 11:00 whatever.

    On the 11th, there will be an “opportunity” for anyone at work to gather for a moments silence at 11:00. Again no compulsion – merely the choice and a simple act of remembrance.

    Junkyard
    Member

    There was no social pressure applied in any way. Ditto today, I am free to go to a service, go for a walk, ride my bike at 11:00 whatever.

    On the 11th, there will be an “opportunity” for anyone at work to gather for a moments silence at 11:00. Again no compulsion – merely the choice and a simple act of remembrance.

    Excellent choose to not observe the silence and go about your business asking folk and acting as normal

    Let us know if there is any social pressure applied to you or folk just act a they would if you did thi 5 minutes later or earlier

Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 215 total)

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