molgrips – Member

The traditional structure pretty much has to be adhered to

I can see why you would say that, and I think for a successful TV show you are right, but one of the things that sets all these shows apart for me is how much they bends these principles. Along with other Netflix shows – did you see The OA?[/quote]

I haven’t seen the OA but it is on my list. Anyway, here’s the thing the vast majority of these Netflix (and HBO) shows still follow these structures very very closely. It’s no minor task to pull off since the main characters have to have a developmental arc, each episode has to have a beginning middle and an end, and a cliff hanger to entice you to watch the next episode, but the basic structure is still there.

As I said earlier, in Dare Devil S1 Matt Murdock’s arc follows the mono-myth to the letter. Take Walter White in Breaking Bad and think about his character arc, and how even he adheres more or less to my earlier post. Jon Snow…same again.

What these new programmes are doing is they are stretching the mono-myth hero’s journey over a season, or even 5 or 6 seasons and combining it with the episodic soap opera cliff hanger. It’s not brand new, but it’s something that is coming into maturity. A lot of people credit Buffy as being the first show to feature this complex overarching narrative and continuous, character development. It wasn’t the first but it was one of the first big successes. We’re now seeing a level and quality of writing previously reserved for big Hollywood films being applied to TV and rolled out into a longer format and combined with massive budgets which allow them to realise fantastic content in a realistic / believable way.

Fantasy, action, horror, super hero themes in tv used to be relatively low budget, relatively basic, and not brilliantly written.

Of course there are films and tv shows which have non linear timescales and narratives, but even then you can still map the monomyth and 3 act structure (divided in 5/7) on to them.

First ‘major’ show I remember doing that trick effectively was Babylon 5?

colournoise – Member

First ‘major’ show I remember doing that trick effectively was Babylon 5?

Hill street Blues is one that gets mentioned but I didn’t really watch it. Maybe Miami Vice? X Files is an obvious one (Vince Gilligan was a co producer on there and Breaking Bad). I think Babylon 5 was around the same time.

If you compare the kind of characters, depth complexity etc that you find in those shows and compare them to traditional soap operas there’s a massive difference. Once upon a time TV was just the springboard for people trying to get into movies, it was definitely the poor relation.

We’re now seeing a level and quality of writing previously reserved for big Hollywood films being applied to TV

I think few Hollywood films are written as well as the most recent quality TV series. It appears to me that Netflix are giving far more creative license to writers than traditional TV. I suspect because their costs are lower and they don’t have to pander to studios who in turn have to pander to advertisers and funders.

Netflix has its own money and owns its own distribution which I’d guess is cheaper. Same for Amazon. And they have mire creative freedom. They don’t have to drag a story out for the standard number of episodes; and the episodes don’t even need padding out to the standard 42 minutes. Stranger things episodes were not all the same length, which means no filler is required and each segment can follow its own course and pace. Netflix etc are growing and need more shows so need to attract writers, perhaps by giving them what they want which presumably is creative freedom.

I’d love to know if this is true, because it is remarkable how.much better online stuff seems to be. At least in what I am watching.

I agree re X-Files. We re watched it (or the first few series at least) and we agreed it was pretty seminal.

molgrips – Member

I think few Hollywood films are written as well as the most recent quality TV series. It appears to me that Netflix are giving far more creative license to writers than traditional TV. I suspect because their costs are lower and they don’t have to pander to studios who in turn have to pander to advertisers and funders.

Yeah the average Hollywood cinema release is something like 60-80 million. A lot of cooks. Plus the longer format gives writers more time and space to develop characters and stories in greater detail.

Netflix has its own money and owns its own distribution which I’d guess is cheaper. Same for Amazon. And they have mire creative freedom.

I think a key thing might also be the demographics – Netflix and Amazon, by their nature will have a “young” user base. Until very recently with them being pre-installed on smart tvs bother services required a degree of tech savy’ness. That probably means more openness to new themes and genres that were traditionally seen as schlocky or marginal – comics, horror, sci-fi, fantasy etc

Stranger things episodes were not all the same length, which means no filler is required and each segment can follow its own course and pace.

I hate to harp on but consider 11/Elle’s character arc in Stranger Things S2 – It follows the hero’s journey so closely that it kicks you in the face.

I’d love to know if this is true, because it is remarkable how.much better online stuff seems to be. At least in what I am watching.

There are still great films out there but they are falling through the cracks and getting shaded by blockbuster franchises imo. I also find the Netflix/Amazon mini series model better and more interesting at present.

All I ever saw was that modern movie THE PUNISHER which was pretty kak tbh.

If no one’s played the punisher on xbox original, I recommend that as highly entertaining

Dolph Lundgren’s Punisher FTW.

@ the flying ox – nice find, that was alright ya know if a little longwinded but suspense then loadsa brutal action is the name of the game with the punisher

Dolph Lundgren pah! None pf them have been great, but there’s only one movie Punisher. And he’s still at it.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpK0wsnitchttp://[/video]

I hate to harp on but consider 11/Elle’s character arc in Stranger Things S2 – It follows the hero’s journey so closely that it kicks you in the face.

Oh I agree about the hero’s journey idea. Although 11 didn’t really start in a place of comfort… That was unresolved from the end of S1..

What I am wondering is how much can a TV show diverge from the standard themes and still be good? Or be a success? Can a Netflix show appeal to a smaller audience and still be a commercial success for the company?

I would like to hear your opinion on the OA.

molgrips – Member

I hate to harp on but consider 11/Elle’s character arc in Stranger Things S2 – It follows the hero’s journey so closely that it kicks you in the face.

Oh I agree about the hero’s journey idea. Although 11 didn’t really start in a place of comfort… That was unresolved from the end of S1.. [/quote]

So the place of comfort doesn’t have to mean literal comfort, it can mean drudgery or mundanity. It just means they are in a familiar rut. A perfect or gross example would be James McAvoy’s character in Wanted.

What I am wondering is how much can a TV show diverge from the standard themes and still be good? Or be a success? Can a Netflix show appeal to a smaller audience and still be a commercial success for the company?

In terms of deviation along themes it’s completely free, but deviation from the structure is almost impossible. In the most basic terms, no one is interested in a story that has no ending/resolution.

Within that established structure though there’s a lot of freedom – take Dexter for example, a serial killer as a lead character. Saying that, it’s obviously not an easy task to pull off as it went badly off the rails – I never finished it. I’m sure Netflix would love to know the answer to your question too, but I think with the world wide online distribution model they can certainly cater to more unique tastes – it’s like podcasting…back in the day you could never have a major weekly tv show about say engineering. But today you can create a podcast that only 0.1% of the online population are interested in, but that’s still a big enough audience to sustain your podcast.

I would like to hear your opinion on the OA.

It’s on my list – I fear it’ll have to take a back seat to the Punisher though.

Just finished it. No spoilers but that got messy towards the end. Will chime back in when others have caught up.

6.5/10.

Still amazing you can see violence to make Ted Bundy blush, but you can’t show any titties.

Jamie, I’m guessing you’re referring to netflix version?
If so how does one watch without having netflix 😐

No spoilers but that got messy towards the end

aye upped it a notch! 😆

If so how does one watch without having netflix

Just pay for Netflix for a month? First month is free if you’re a new customer.

Another marvel series I won’t make it to the end of. predictable and gets more stupid with every episode….

If so how does one watch without having netflix

One doesn’t. Netflix make the shows to encourage you to pay the £5.99/mo. That’s their business model 🙂

I am 4 or 5 episodes into the Punisher. Seems ok if not stellar. My main gripe would be with the two Homeland Security agents (Madani & Stein). Complete non characters who seem like terrible actors, or at least terribly miscast actors. The mustang chase was particularly bad.

I’ll give it a few more episodes.

Fair enough molgrips! 🙂

Except the op post on netflix looks a terrible act.

Finished it last night. Thought it was good, Jon Benthal was brilliant, not enough Punishing going on and a few needless subplots. Part of me hoped Danny Rand would make an appearance just to say his “I’m the immortal Iron Fist, protector of Kun Lun and sworn enemy of the hand” I can’t get enough of it.

Part of me hoped Danny Rand would make an appearance just to say his “I’m the immortal Iron Fist, protector of Kun Lun and sworn enemy of the hand” I can’t get enough of it.

It couldn’t make it any worse, and it would be a genuine surprise, unlike the most of the series.

Well I thought it was superb. Up there with DD, surpassing JJ and LC imo. Cast, direction, dialogue were great, plot could have thickened a bit I suppose. I’m also watching Shooter and Designated Survivor at the same time and Punisher was much more engaging in all respects.

tdog – Member

If so how does one watch without having netflix

My brother buys me the DVDs when they come out, because I’m a caveman.

“What shall we do tonight honey?”
“How about we watch people being brutally murdered?”
“Ok, sounds good”

Pop corns on you then luv

I don’t think I can be bothered completing the series. The scriptwriting just isn’t of a high enough quality to sustain the story for so many episodes. It is just 60+% worthless filler, I just myself wishing the would get to the point quicker, in fact I have started skipping half the one to one conversations as they just don’t add anything to the plot or characters.

This is the problem with many shows these days, they all think they are “the wire” but they just don’t have the script, actors or ideas to pace a single story through an entire season. They need to break it up, have a few more “traditional” one off story lines to break up the overall ark.