Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 122 total)
  • Martin McGuinness
  • seosamh77
    Free Member

    jambalaya – Member
    As I have posted before IMO 9-11 was fhe key event in ending the Northern Ireland Troubles. It changed the US’s attitude to the IRA’s fund raising in the US and towards the troubles in general. Any credit to McGuiness or Adams is overstated.

    #Jambafact 😕

    Nico
    Free Member

    I do wonder if people generally would be so forgiving if he’d been a Muslim terrorist for 30 years and not a Catholic one.

    In the 70s and 80s being an Irish Republican was to be far more of a bogey man than a “muslim terrorist” which would have been a very unfamiliar term to most people.

    Much (though not all) of what the IRA was up to was not against civilians and therefore not terrorism. The republicans liked to see it as “armed struggle” i.e. one military force against an occupying military force, and much of their effort was directed to establish this status. The reality was probably much murkier.

    There are many cases of “freedom fighters” becoming “terrorists”: a group that is giving the Russkies a bloody nose in Afganistan in one decade becomes the bogey men fighting dirty against our boys in the next.

    As usual it is the locals that suffer most in these situations and I wouldn’t have liked to have attracted the ire of McGuinness and co. if I’d lived on a Catholic housing estate in NI during his reign.

    binners
    Full Member

    Rather more complicated than that though, wasn’t it.

    Yes… funny isn’t it how long protracted conflicts, that go on for decades, involving multiple factions, ever shifting alliances, then cagey negotiations trying to tentively rebuild trust can get a bit complicated, isn’t it? Who’d have thunk it, eh?

    Perhaps, you and Jammers should stick with your Tebbit-esque ‘Good Guys’ and ‘Baddies’ routine. Like a Western? You seem to struggle with anything more mentally taxing or nuanced

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    nickc
    Full Member

    Given that John Major made the downing Street declaration in ’94, and tacitly acknowledged contact had started long before that, how does that square with your assertion that 9/11 was responsible for encouraging talks?

    Or does it just fit with your view, and thusly become another jambafact?

    frankconway
    Full Member

    No tears or sympathy from me.

    His conversion to the peace process does not outweigh his long standing IRA involvement.

    I would argue that he was one of the proponents of ‘asymmetric war’ and during the troubles he regarded everyone and everything as fair game.

    How much about him and Adams is hidden away in Government files covered by the 30 year rule – which will, no doubt, be extended for generations.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Good guy, in my book.

    Bad guy, in mine. But a bad guy who did bad things for what he passionately believed in, and when circumstances changed changed with them to eventually do very good things.

    His slate is not clean, but that’s not so different to many from that period on both sides. But in the round I think both sides owe him (and Trimble, and Paisley, and Major, and Mowlam, and even Blair a bit) a debt of gratitude.

    Andy_B
    Full Member

    As I have posted before IMO 9-11 was fhe key event in ending the Northern Ireland Troubles

    Jamba has this right. Once this happened and the money couldn’t flow around they had to get around the table.

    Editing to add it was not so much get around the table but the option to leave and return to arms wasn’t properly viable any more. There are many issues involved but the various flows of money and the associated power kept things going.

    eat_the_pudding
    Free Member

    Binners, Tebbit has more right to his opinion on this subject than most on here.

    How you can say this about Tebbit and someone who agrees with him;

    If you ever wanted to make sure nobody reads another word of whatever drivel you’re about to spew out, then that’s probably the best statement to start with. You clearly share the same level of willful ignorance and blind prejudice

    In a thread where most people are talking about being forgiving towards Martin McGuinness is making my brain ache a bit.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Andy_B – Member
    As I have posted before IMO 9-11 was fhe key event in ending the Northern Ireland Troubles
    Jamba has this right.

    Aye, I too think 9-11 had a profound affect the decommissioning talks. 😕

    Timeline[edit]
    10 April 1998 (Good Friday): Belfast Agreement is signed, which agrees to have all paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland decommission by May 2000.
    May 2000: Deadline to disarm passes. Independent International Commission on Decommissioning agrees on a new deadline, 30 June 2001.
    30 June 2001: Deadline to disarm passes.
    July 2001: Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble resigns as First Minister because the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) refuses to disarm.
    7 August 2001: The IRA agrees on a method to decommission.

    the war was over by the time 9-11 happened.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    I can understand Tebbit, man lost his wife to the ‘ra.

    Doesn’t make him correct of course.

    EDIT no she didn’t die 😳

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    Glad I didn’t start this thread, thought about I but got the jitters.

    I’m torn, split right down the middle on this one. I’m a man of peace and tranquility so any kind of aggression and reactionary aggression on either side makes me retreat into a role of self preservation.

    I think we all know how the IRA started, and why so no need to dredge that back up. But it wasn’t just the blowing up and killing stuff I get itchy about. It’s the beatings and violence and knee capping they did, of which He was involved and gave many the order to inflict.
    There are a great many families that still tread in fear today, but without Him walking up to the table of negotiation the overt violence would still be in place, as is we’ve had peace for a number of years now, in the main because He understood the importance of talking and negotiation. But the beatings continue, the organised crime continues and He knew about it, whether directly or indirectly.

    So, I’m on the fence.

    Tom-B
    Free Member

    Erm she didn’t die cynic-al!

    Obviously as a big hitter you’d need to post on a thread like this though without knowing anything at all about what you’re commenting on.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    bikebouy – Member
    I think we all know how the IRA started,

    i’d doubt that claim.

    whitestone
    Free Member

    Given that the IRA attempted, and very nearly succeeded, in murdering Norman Tebbit I can understand his antipathy towards McGuinness and others associated with the IRA.

    Ultimately however, if we aren’t to remain in the past then we must bring it upon ourselves to forgive the past.

    eat_the_pudding
    Free Member

    Talks about talks had been going on for a long time in NI before 9/11, but there is an element of truth in the idea that the changing attitude of the American diaspora had an effect.

    For example; the first WTC bombing happened in 1993, and changed many Americans attitudes to bombs going off now that they were seen as a local possibility.

    The average knowledge of the average American about the troubles can probably be summed up by the fact that I know some UDR (Ulster Defence Regiment) guys who drank copiously for free in some Irish American bars after telling people who they worked for, and not correcting the people that thought they were some sort of republican splinter group 🙂

    juanghia
    Free Member

    I was there in Warrington and family were in Manchester when they did the Arndale. Suffice to say I didn’t celebrate St. Patricks day.

    It’s interesting to hear just how very close Mc Guiness was to spending the rest of his life behind bars before his U-Turn to join the peace process.

    binners
    Full Member

    How you can say this about Tebbit and someone who agrees with him;

    Tebbit relies on his knee-jerk, prejudicial gut-instinct at the best of times. He doesn’t do nuance either. So if I was looking for an objective view on anything, he’d be my very last port of call.

    But for an objective view on a senior member of an organisation that tried to kill him….?

    eat_the_pudding
    Free Member

    Tom B
    Info on Tebbits wife, from wikipedia;

    Margaret Elizabeth Tebbit, Baroness Tebbit, née Daines, is a former nurse who was severely and permanently paralysed by the IRA’s 12 October 1984 bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton

    Congratulations on your humanity.

    eat_the_pudding
    Free Member

    binners,
    My point isn’t that Tebbit is a nice bloke, just that your invective about Tebbit could be considered a bit extreme in a thread where people are largely being nice about Martin McGuinness.

    IHN
    Full Member

    bikebouy – Member

    I think we all know how the IRA started

    I would lay a significant bet that 99.9% of people don’t. I bet you don’t.

    mefty
    Free Member

    In giving Martin McGuiness a lot of credit one is also in danger of airbrushing the very significant peaceful efforts made by John Hume.

    binners
    Full Member

    I’m not being nice about Martin McGuinness, or nasty about Norman Tebbit.

    I’m saying McGuinness’s position is complicated, nuanced, and changed completely over time. He was a pragmatist, and his actions have to be viewed in that context. And I’m saying that Tebbits opinion is about as far removed from objective as its possible to get. Which I also understand.

    I doubt I’d be prepared to consider the more positive aspects of someone’s charterer, who had tried to kill me.

    IHN
    Full Member

    And, just to show some of the empathy with all sides that’s needed in these situations, I think Tebbit’s hard-line stance can be understood, given the IRA tried to take his life and in doing so condemned his wife to a life in a wheelchair.

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    Fill your afternoon up, for those unable to find Wikipedia…

    IRA history.

    Andy_B
    Full Member

    seosamh

    I did edit, probably while you were writing, to say that it was 9/11 that closed the door rather than paved the way. I certainly didn’t have the feeling until 9/11 happened that IRA decom was worth their declarations until after the cash was stopped. Also, if it hadn’t happened there would likely have been more incidents from 2001 to present day. Remember that Omagh was in August 1998 (after Good Friday) and it seemed clear to me that there was no consensus for arms decommissioning on either side but the results of 9/11 ensured that what was said actually happened.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    If 9/11 had an affect it was in speeding up decommissioning, and that’s about it. The appetite for war was long gone(the population on all sides was sick of it), and politics was the only way forward from the mid90s onwards, despite some set backs.

    The republican movement had been on a course to politics from a long time, ever since the 80s it was well understood that the aims couldn’t be achieve by gun alone(the obvious conclusion to that is a completely political solution.)

    ransos
    Free Member

    And, just to show some of the empathy with all sides that’s needed in these situations, I think Tebbit’s hard-line stance can be understood, given the IRA tried to take his life and in doing so condemned his wife to a life in a wheelchair.

    That cuts both ways. The British government, of which Tebbit was a part, spent a great deal of time denying Catholics jobs, imprisoning people without trial, and murdering unarmed protestors.

    Calls for remembrance of McGuiness’ past activities are reasonable enough, but seem to be highly selective.

    Andy_B
    Full Member

    Wasn’t PIRA a splinter of the original IRA at some point who wished to continue with arms? Genuine question. That’s what i believed and I could see a possibility of history repeating. I agree that the majority were looking to a political solution but a motivated and financed minority could disrupt it.

    oldbloke
    Free Member

    If 9/11 had and affect it was in speeding up decommissioning, and that’s about it.

    Not just that. There was newspaper coverage at the time that for some parts of the republican leadership, talks were a tactic whilst fundraising, recruitment and training could carry on. What 9/11 did was remove the US funding and any way back to the previous path. Once

    eat_the_pudding
    Free Member

    binners,
    I fully agree with that.

    For me though, however nuanced and however much things changed in the end, I can’t help considering how people would feel if they Mr McGuinness shooting some crying kid through the back of the knees.

    (There was a sliding scale of kneecapping by the way. Shooting back to front was considered the worst as it removed the kneecap permanently.)

    The best thing you can say about him was that he stopped in the end.

    Andy_B
    Full Member

    The best thing you can say about him was that he stopped in the end.

    He did more than stop. He pretty much did a 180. He just didn’t come clean about his past.

    I do not like him one bit but what he did was quite remarkable imo.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Andy_B – Member
    Wasn’t PIRA a splinter of the original IRA at some point who wished to continue with arms? Genuine question. That’s what i believed and I could see a possibility of history repeating. I agree that the majority were looking to a political solution but a motivated and financed minority could disrupt it.

    Aye the PIRA took over from the less proactive older “Offical” IRA in 69/70.

    What do you mean history repeating itself? these days?

    jimjam
    Free Member

    eat_the_pudding

    t.

    For me though, however nuanced and however much things changed in the end, I can’t help considering how people would feel if they Mr McGuinness shooting some crying kid through the back of the knees.

    You should probably temper your views on McGuinnes with the realisation that he was a product of of British interference, exploitation and genocidal murder of millions of people in Ireland for nearly 1000 years.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    bikebouy – Member

    I’m torn, split right down the middle on this one

    Seems completely appropriate tbh.

    binners
    Full Member

    The best thing you can say about him was that he stopped in the end

    .

    I’m no fan of him either. He has plenty of blood on his hands. But the way I look at it is that not only did he renounce violence himself, and embrace diplomacy and compromise, but along with Adams, he managed to convince a terrorist organisation as formidable as the IRA to disarm and do the same.

    Would you fancy taking on that task? I can’t imagine how daunting a prospect that was! Or the work, not to mention risk to your life, that involved!

    Whatever you think of him – nobody is saying you have to like him – you surely have to admire, or at least acknowledge the commitment from him, and personal sacrifice, that has allowed a lasting peace to emerge after decades of bloody conflict? No?

    I’d like to hope that his commitment to that was to atone for his previous violent actions. But I guess we’ll never know.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Peace?? Really…The fact that soldiers no longer police the streets is really the only difference.

    It’s moved on a whole lot since you last patrolled in a Landrover.

    It’s rather pleasant not to have to check under the borrowed car (from a family member) when we stop in Coleraine. I no longer have to avoid Swatragh or Dungiven. My loyalist nephew works in Toomebridge and has done for a few years now.

    It’s whole new place and the longer it goes like this the harder any return will be.

    Andy_B
    Full Member

    What do you mean history repeating itself? these days?

    From 98-01, I didn’t see that anybody had full control of the arms that still existed. I saw a possibility of another splintering of the IRA like the PIRA before. I think 9/11 + decommissioning + the beginnings of politics + the passage of time has made that quite unlikely today. I hope it has. I think it needs another generation minimum – one that hasn’t had their families murdered by the other side. At least the politics discussed at Stormont is more about economics, health, education and prosperity than it used to be. it’s not something I thought I’d see in the timescale that it has happened in and I absolutely believe that’s for financial reasons as much as the other reasons.

    Tom-B
    Free Member

    Cheers for the Wikipedia link eat the pudding….as I said then, his wife didn’t die, not blaming Tebitt for having McGuiness….I would too. I was merely correct cynic-al (whom has now edited his post)

    Congratulations on your own humanity too Chap….and on your useful contribution to the thread.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Andy_B – Member
    What do you mean history repeating itself? these days?
    From 98-01, I didn’t see that anybody had full control of the arms that still existed. I saw a possibility of another splintering of the IRA like the PIRA before. I think 9/11 + decommissioning + the beginnings of politics + the passage of time has made that quite unlikely today. I hope it has. I think it needs another generation minimum – one that hasn’t had their families murdered by the other side. At least the politics discussed at Stormont is more about economics, health, education and prosperity than it used to be. it’s not something I thought I’d see in the timescale that it has happened in and I absolutely believe that’s for financial reasons as much as the other reasons.

    I think it would have took an awful lot to go back tbh, I think there was an aire of inevitability about it looking back, but still..

    I think we can all agree the situation today is better that it was an that’s a good thing and testament to all involved, from all sides.

    i still think a proper truth and reconcillation should have happened, along with immunity from further prosecution for all(a line should have been drawn, imo.)

    eat_the_pudding
    Free Member

    TomB
    Sorry if I got you wrong, but it seemed that just saying “she didn’t die” to correct someone was a bit harsh in view of the life changing injuries she suffered.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 122 total)

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