Less well-off people voting Tory is an absolute mystery to me

Talk to a few of them and you will solve your mystery. To sum up;
They believe what they are told / read in Daily Mail/ hear from mates / read on Facebook.

I see Farage has poked his head over the parapet and criticised the government on this.

Accepting that even broken clocks are correct twice a day, I’m a little concerned at him sticking his oar in and jumping on a genuine populist cause, after the shitstorm he created with Brexit.

Smacks of opportunistic headline grabbing, he doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who has the best interests of ordinary people at heart.

Talk to a few of them and you will solve your mystery. To sum up;
They believe what they are told / read in Daily Mail/ hear from mates / read on Facebook.

Very much this. The problem with social media – and real life – is that you gravitate towards your “own kind” and rapidly lose touch with the thought processes of “others”. Which leads to the kind of complacency that leads to 80 seat Tory majorities.

But I’m realising now how attractive “Get Brexit Done” sounded to people with little interest in politics. It had dragged on for years, dominated the news and divided friends and families. Voting for the party who were suggesting it just needed finishing and it would go away must have sounded attractive at a surface level.

And that Brexit Fatigue is now being replaced with Covid Fatigue as people are being ground down by restrictions and economic hardship.

Talk to a few of them and you will solve your mystery. To sum up;
They believe what they are told / read in Daily Mail/ hear from mates / read on Facebook.

What a patronising answer. There have always been a lot working class Tories, they identify with hard work and are proud to support themselves and not rely on others. This is often interpreted as I’m alright Jack, they would see it as taking responsibility for themselves and their families. Nothing boils their urine more than people they grew up with seemingly no worse off than they are despite predominantly living on benefits.

If you want to have a go take a look at the red wall who changed allegiance to get the foreigners out.

Anyway the current government aren’t Tories, they are corrupt, self serving scum purely in it for themselves. Real Tories do have a valid ideology in the same way Corbyn and co did, you may not like it but its a legitimate position in a democracy. A lot of people do identify with these policies as shown by the number of Tory vs Labour governments over the last 60 years. If it’s of any relevance I voted Corbyn last time around as the current shower are so far from proper Tories I’d rather have had Corbyn running the country.

So maybe if you don’t understand why working people on low wages vote Tory you might want to educate yourself rather jumping to lazy stereotypes and assuming they are incapable of thinking for themselves just because you dont have the capability to think beyond your view of the world.

It’s not surprising a lot of Tory voters don’t advertise their allegiance as people who dont like Tories immediately accuse them of being selfish nasty people rather than engage with the policies, playing the man is not a good way to change someone’s mind.

There have always been a lot working class Tories, they identify with hard work and are proud to support themselves and not rely on others. This is often interpreted as I’m alright Jack, they would see it as taking responsibility for themselves and their families. Nothing boils their urine more than people they grew up with seemingly no worse off than they are despite predominantly living on benefits.

I get what you’re saying and it’s a valid view but the trouble is that this world view is often provably based on prejudice not reality. I’m always posting the ‘british public wrong about nearly everything’ survey but it shows quite clearly people think there are massively more benefit cheats, immigrants than there really are, and that benefits are more generous than they really are etc etc

If we are saying we need to listen to how these people feel, regardless of whether it’s fair or justified, well…

And while they may have a genuine desire for people to be more independent, this is very easily manipulated into blaming the wrong targets, when the people they are voting for are really the problem.

Anyway the current government aren’t Tories,

They are.

I’m very impressed by Marcus rashford. A young man that is grounded, honest, compassionate, understanding. He is arguing
Articulate and presenting this issue really simply and clearly. By doing so he’s running rings around the politicians. As a top footballer he could so easily be very different and remote from reality. Top marks Marcus! Top marks.

I get what you’re saying and it’s a valid view but the trouble is that this world view is often provably based on prejudice not reality. I’m always posting the ‘british public wrong about nearly everything’ survey but it shows quite clearly people think there are massively more benefit cheats, immigrants than there really are, and that benefits are more generous than they really are etc etc

Equally though, remember when you’re discussing this with someone that it can be their own experiences, rather than prejudice. Obviously there is prejudice everywhere. (look at the traveller threads on here, for example!). IMO simply dismissing peoples experiences makes it much more difficult to engage with them on a much broader range of issues. Because you’ve read the stats and look to the overall impact, doesn’t mean that immigration, for example, hasn’t been an issue for some individuals. I guess I’m hoping there’s a path that means you can acknowledge that issues exist but also point to the successes and suggest where things can be improved.

johnson’s new slogan…starve a kid to save a quid.

I get what you’re saying and it’s a valid view but the trouble is that this world view is often provably based on prejudice not reality. I’m always posting the ‘british public wrong about nearly everything’ survey but it shows quite clearly people think there are massively more benefit cheats, immigrants than there really are, and that benefits are more generous than they really are etc etc

Thanks Grum, not quite the response I was expecting here but if we ever need a response that engages with the argument rather than being personal you’ve just provided a great example.

I also think you’re right regarding public perception, it is usually skewed to one extreme or another. I actually agree the number of people actively gaming the system is pretty small, theres a much larger proportion on benefits because they’ve given up hope, just dont have the life skills to hold a job down or make little effort to get off benefits. There’s also a big proportion who are temporarily on benefits between jobs, who despite the soul crushing lack of support get them selves back into work. These people are not benefit cheats or actively choosing to live on benefits, but for other people who’ve pulled themselves out of that vicious cycle i can see their point. Yes some of it will be based on prejudice but a lot of it is if i can do it why cant they and why despite the effort I put into life is my my lifestyle only marginally better.

I’ll also admit this place has changed my perceptions on this, if you’d asked me 10 years ago I’d have lumped everyone into the useless feckers category, shared experiences on here have proved that view wrong, but some posters here also seem to default to everyone on benefits are victims of society whilst people who work hard and support themselves are selfish me first Tories. Like everything in life its way more nuanced.

Equally though, remember when you’re discussing this with someone that it can be their own experiences, rather than prejudice.

or it can be their own prejudiced experience. My father always accused me of laziness etc when I left school in the mid 80’s and couldn’t get a job. He related it to his experiences in the 60’s when you could just walk up to a factory and choose from a list of vacancies. He didn’t realise the world had changed and bought the tory propaganda rather than listening to my experiences.

whilst people who work hard and support themselves are selfish me first Tories.

The problem is, most people work hard. IME there is little link between hard work and success. So it is the claim that “I work hard to support myself and my family etc” as an argument that therefore anyone who can’t support themselves must be lazy, brings about the accusation of selfish tory. There are those who work hard, understand they have had the opportunities to turn that hard work into success and still have compassion for those less fortunate, such as Markus Rashford.

“one school in Mansfield 75% of kids have a social worker, 25% of parents are illiterate. Their estate is the centre of the area’s crime. One kid lives in a crack den, another in a brothel. These are the kids that most need our help, extending FSM doesn’t reach these kids.”

“£20 cash direct to a crack den and brothel really sounds like way forward with this one”, writing: “That’s what FSM vouchers in the summer effectively did …””

Quote from MP

Seems like the tories have lost their appetite for the culture war they started and fuelled.

this letter seems to be claiming that people have been shouting abuse at Tory MPs in recent days not because they voted against extending free school meals, but because Angela Rayner inaudibly called one of them 'scum'. personally I am sceptical of this https://t.co/dV2XRyT2sq

— Jon Stone (@joncstone) October 23, 2020

Ah these soft millennials that can’t take a bit of banter.
/s

Leadsom is not a millennial

The letter also says please stop asking us nasty questions about why we keep cocking up everything whilst siphoning off public money

Am I the only one who read the 2nd comment about Rayner that she did behave like an MP?

“…nor the first time she had behaved with the standards expected of a Member of Parliament”

So basically she’s expected to be raucous, judgemental and rude towards gobby shysters?

Theres a much larger proportion on benefits because. . .

they are underpaid by their employer or don’t have enough hours to live on, or they are of pensionable age.

This is where the majority of benefit spending goes. Of the two the subsidy to employers should be ended as the mark of a civilised people is that they look after their old and young.

EDIT @dazh The put-upon MP’s have forgotten that if you’re going to throw you’ve got to be able to catch. My MP is amongst that festering pile of scum that signed the letter.

That letter is nothing more than an attempted distraction tactic; divert attention away from the increasing problems that johnson and his clown circus have and are incapable of managing but it’s a failure.
Test, track, test, isolate – failed.
Brexit transition – failing.
Litigation for unfair contract awards – PPE and others; in progress.
Rejecting children in poverty.
Coronavirus management plan – non existent.
johnson – a failed leader with an increasingly fractured personal life.
johnson no longer the useful idiot needed by cummings and gove – now a useless idiot.

What I find most depressing about this whole thing is how quickly it has degenerated into an argument about the deserving vs undeserving poor. A lazy trope which previously was consigned to Victorian times but Boris and co appear to have brought back to us with gusto.

My local MP is Tory and to his credit one of the few who voted against this despicable and cowardly government.

It’s funny how it’s ok to openly and repeatedly use words like traitor, surrender, betrayal etc which get used to abuse Labour MPs (who lets not forget have been actually murdered in recent memory for their views), but saying ‘scum’ under your breath about people voting to starve poor children, then apologising is apparently crime of the century.

But it’s the left who are the snowflakes.

My MP, a tory, also signed the letter; Dr caroline johnson, number 61 on the list.
She is a consultant paediatrician so I would expect her to have some understanding of the effects poverty and under-nourishment have on children.
That is something else to email her about.
Her response will be the usual bland form of words reflecting her toeing the party line.

Less well-off people voting Tory is an absolute mystery to me

Nothing new here. As Nye Bevan said a long time ago:

How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century.

grum
Free Member

It’s funny how it’s ok to openly and repeatedly use words like traitor, surrender, betrayal etc which get used to abuse Labour MPs (who lets not forget have been actually murdered in recent memory for their views), but saying ‘scum’ under your breath about people voting to starve poor children, then apologising is apparently crime of the century.

Parliament innit. Lying- fine as long as you can get away with it, which in practice just means tell another lie quickly so that the first one can’t be called out in time. Call someone a liar? UNPARLIAMENTARY. Act like scum? Fine. Actually be scum? Fine. Destroy people’s lives because you’re scum? Fine. Call someone scum? UNPARLIAMENTARY.

It’s funny how it’s ok to openly and repeatedly use words like traitor, surrender, betrayal etc which get used to abuse Labour MPs

I don’t think Labour have a monopoly on being violently insulted, if anything it’s deemed more acceptable to be highly abusive of Tory MPs in this place.

That said the current government do rather deserve it but its still not right, especially in the house. Personally id like to see the same high behavioural standards applied to lying to the house etc. That’s what brought Profumo down, lying to the house was way more serious than sleeping with Keeler and betraying his wife.

You’d think they’d want to keep a low profile after this week. Instead they’re all over twitter going on about how hard it’s been.

Really tough old week in politics. No-one said it would be easy. But when you get to come up here for your end-of-week clear-the-head session, it all seems ok. #dartmoor pic.twitter.com/dFXxE0uPf6

— Johnny Mercer (@JohnnyMercerUK) October 23, 2020

This is brilliant – my MP whining about tories being called scum and also apparently revealing how his constituents swap food parcels for drugs… And then getting owned.

https://twitter.com/markjenkinsonmp?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

The responses are class and have restored my faith in my local area 😀

It’s great to see folk standing up for those poor Tory MPs. They’ve had a tough week of it really.

The responses are class

The one of the guy holding the jar of pasta particularly caught my eye. 😂

What I find most depressing about this whole thing is how quickly it has degenerated into an argument about the deserving vs undeserving poor. A lazy trope which previously was consigned to Victorian times but Boris and co appear to have brought back to us with gusto.

Let’s not forget that Iain Duncan Smiths entire motivation for setting up the ongoing disaster that is Universal Credit was as an instrument to punish the ‘undeserving’ poor

Bawbag

This has just popped up in my Instagram feed.

Thought I’d have a quick look at how much Mark Jenkinson MP has been claiming in expenses whilst working hard for his constituents (it’s presumably hard work doing exactly what Boris tells you to):

https://westcountrybylines.co.uk/mps-against-free-school-meals-how-much-does-your-mp-claim-for-their-expenses/

Not bad – only £61197 in the FIVE months between being elected in Dec 19 until May 20… We really need to make sure bloody scroungers kids go hungry to ensure MP’s expenses can be afforded.

PS The bawbag instagram is top class 🤣

I see Selaine Saxby has joined the condemnation of supporting businesses FFS

https://www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/north-devon-mp-makes-statement-after-social-media-post-1-6899273

It’s like an episode of The Thick of It.

So this morning Handcock comes out and says the PM and Rashford have been talking on BBC news (in regards to a u-turn) only for Rashford to tweet a gew hours later they haven’t spoken since june! the rate at which this gov’ lies is truly shocking. Its like they don’t even care when they get found out.

I genuinely think that as far as Boris is concerned, theres no distinction between truth and lies. ‘The truth’ is just whatever he’d prefer it to be at any given time to make his life easier.

The comments I’ve read and heard from Tory MPs over the weekend have been truly staggering.

They’ve doubled down on the ‘all poor people are scroungers’ rhetoric, obviously, but then also that all poor people are crack-whores, and then somewhat unbelievably gone on to say how some businesses generosity is somehow proof of economic recovery.

They just judge everyone by their own standards, and the idea of helping anyone less fortunate then themselves, even when you’re maybe not doing great yourself, is something that they simply cannot comprehend.

They’ve doubled down on the ‘all poor people are scroungers’ rhetoric, obviously, but then also that all poor people are crack-whores, and then somewhat unbelievably gone on to say how some businesses generosity is somehow proof of economic recovery.

The myth that everyone on benefits is either a scrounger or addict (I know you’re not saying this) is truly disgusting. The other one of oh don’t have kids if you can’t afford them is also shocking, like yeh because everyone thinks I wont have kids because in a few years time I might be hit with really tough time where I can’t afford to eat. It must be nice for them up in that ivory tower. It drives me absolutely mad to the point of rage. Im getting to the point where I can see the logic of people cheering when Thatcher died.

When pressed further, he said: “I understand that there has been communication but I’m obviously not in charge of the prime minister’s correspondence. If there hasn’t been, I’m sure that that will be followed up.”

Hancock’s actual quote looks more like “of course we’ve spoken to him. Haven’t we? Oh ****, I bet we haven’t. But we should”

The other one of oh don’t have kids if you can’t afford them is also shocking

Particularly coming from a government headed by a PM who has fathered an undisclosed number of kids, the exact number of which remains a mystery

The other one of oh don’t have kids if you can’t afford them is also shocking, like yeh because everyone thinks I wont have kids because in a few years time I might be hit with really tough time where I can’t afford to eat.

Unless I’m reading it wrong, that implies or accepts that you shouldn’t have kids if you’re already know you’re struggling financially. Better to say that we live in an extremely rich country, where everyone should have enough wealth to be able to support a family?